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ORIGINAL: AnnYEC

32k,

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ORIGINAL: 32k

The way I view Perseverance of the Saints (aka OSAS) is simply that one cannot lose something that isn't under their control. God is the giver of Faith through Grace [kindness]. Salvation is not an act of man, but of God.

A. Then we must first make out if we do have some control or not, and the Bible confirms we do. If we are responsible for our actions (sins) we have some control, or else we can blame God for our sins, and that he didn't control us better. "Salvation" is the gift of God. About faith we can read that we have each been given a certain amount of it, and also that we can get faith from hearing the word. God has enabled us to accept/reject him.

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ORIGINAL: AnnYEC

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Romans 9:16-18:
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - (ESV)

A: That passage concerns the comparison with Israel. Some jews thought they would absolutely be saved since God had chosen them, and Paul declares that it's not so. The Israelites were chosen as a body and not necessarily for salvation. We know what is needed for salvation; faith!.God has mercy on who he wants, and he wants to have mercy on those who come to him in faith. The Israelites often disobeyed God, and Pharao worked against God as well.

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<<You would have to understand that Salvation is not dependent on what we do, even after we've inherited Salvation.

A: That is not true. It's very much dependent on what we do. We must believe in him, and bear the right fruit. If not, we will be cut off.

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<<Because we are counted as righteous since Jesus died and rose again. Hebrews 10:14 shows us this: "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."- (ESV)

A. Yes, but being sanctified doesn't mean we are absolutely saved. Not if we pull away from Him as in disowning him or commit sins we don't repent for.

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<<See, we'ved been "PERFECTED", yet we keep moving onward to Sanctification [holiness].

A: This too would be a license to sin. If we are born again and thus forever declared righteous no matter what we do, then you must ponder what to do with those multiple verses that claim that immoral people cannot enter heaven.

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Did you by any chance read anything from the posts that I've just posted today? I feel I'm repeating myself again and again.:)

/AnnYEC

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ORIGINAL: Evangalist

Your absolutely right! U cant lose your salvation. But, you can give it away. Its just like Esau who sold his birth rights.

Corinth7-HOLD UP WAIT A MINUTE...lol God predestine from the Beginning that the OLDER would Serve the younger.......what God has predestined happens....AS those he Justified he also Glorifies....

It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 15 9:7 nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.” 16 9:8 This means 17 it is not the children of the flesh 18 who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants. 9:9 For this is what the promise declared: 19 “About a year from now 20 I will return and Sarah will have a son.” 21 9:10 Not only that, but when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, 22 our ancestor Isaac – 9:11 even before they were born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose in election 23 would stand, not by works but by 24 his calling) 25 – 9:12 26 it was said to her, “ The older will serve the younger,” 27 9:13 just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 28



Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Corinth7...Under the LAW...this is Correct.. AND to add WE ALL HAVE AN APPOINTMENT WITH DEATH


Even in the passage of the branch that was broken off and thrown into the fire, he was speaking symbolically. You r that branch and that fire represents hell. We must abide in Christ. This is why Paul said I fought a good fight, I kept the faith. Yes, we do make mistakes and yes we do sin from day to day. But there is a difference from willfully and mistakenly sinning. Failures will come, but the key is endure. Keep the faith.

Corinth7THE BRANCH....IS ISRAEL......THE LAW was their FAITH.....but when they did not go obey the command to Believe the Gospel.........they were cut off........BUT....they didn't continue in their FAITH.......So you are missing the point - for we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH



Ok here's a question. How did you receive the holy spirit. When you heard the word the truth and believed. Right? SO that shows you, that he can only come in your heart through faith. Ok, so wat happens when you stop believing? Will you still abide in him and he in you?
Remember, the just shall live by faith.. How can u live without it?

Corinth7 Once we believe WE ARE SEALED...in him WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE....THE PROMISE GUARANTEES OUR INHERITANCE.
NOW this goes along with your question? WHAT do u suppose we ARE SEALED WITH...THE WORD OF GOD.......now how do you stop believing what you are sealed in the MIND WITH?.....God protects us...Sorry fellow....God made it easy for us...


I will leave you with this...

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

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ORIGINAL: AnnYEC

32k,

A: When I go out with my dog I sometimes let it go without leash, and sometimes I have a leash on it but let it go wherever it want. At no point do I lose control over it though, even if I give it free will. God offers us the gift of salvation, but we must stretch our our hand and accept it. That's our part of the deal, so we "control" our salvation in the way that we are able to accept it or reject it.

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<<We may throw the dice, but the Lord determines how they fall."- Proverbs 16:33 (NLT)

A: I'm always careful to use Proverbs and Psalms as support for an important doctrine since they are highy poetical and sometimes only mirrors the truth in a very symbolic way. Proverbs 16:33 can of course be interpreted in many ways, such as "God is in total control", and we only have free will with limitations because even if we would like to run 10 k in 5 minutes we can't due to the limits God has put on us.

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<<Then we haven't been forgiven of all our sins? is that what you believe?

A: We are forgiven ALL of our past sins. We are not automatically forgiven for our future sins, which we haven't even committed yet. If also our future sins would be forgiven, then we wouldn't even have to repent for them.

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<<Taking a look at Pauls word's: "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

A: Not sure which point you would like to say with that, but this is Paul's description of how God showed mercy on him eventhough he was the worst of sinners. When Paul repented and started his new life, he certainly made up for his past dark history, because he did work hard to spread the word of God. God always takes the first step, but we must respond.

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<<Christians can't disown him, they can only "backslide".

A; Where can we read about "backsliding" in Scriptures, and why doesn't this mean "losing salvation"? The Bible clearly says we can believe for a while and then fall away. And of course christians can disown Jesus. Jesus told his own saved disciples that they would all disown him. Peter denied he would but Jesus told him that he would disown him 3 times which he did. Jesus told them "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Mat 10:33)

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<<We're never sanctified completley, it's a process. But Perfection is promised to those who believe.

A: Where does it say sanctified is a process? We aren't perfect as long as we sin.

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<<Romans 4:1-8 Romans 4:22-25--- etc

A: You didn't tell me which points you had with those verses, so I will give you some verses as well since I guess here and there what you would like to say.
I can say first though, that Jesus died for all our sins and when we come to him we are totally cleansed. This doesn't mean we can never pull away from him though, and naturally our future sins aren't cleansed just because are past sins are. We are righteous as long as we abide in Jesus, and if we love him we obey him.

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"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? (James 2:20) Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21) You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (James 2:22) And the scripture was fulfilled that says,Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God' friend. (James 2:23) You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of God, nor of His son Jesus Christ, who gives the HOLY GHOST to ALL who OBEY Him"

/AnnYEC

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Hebrews 10:14
"For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."
Maybe the word "process" wasn't the best choice of words. What I meant is that we are forever striving for holiness but never attaining it until glorification.

He has perfected us by fulfilling the Law for us, the Law demanded the Perfect life of a Perfect person, Christ was that person. He died on our behalf and therefore perfected us in the eyes of the Law and of God.

Hebrews 10:1
"For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near."

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ORIGINAL: Corinth7

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ORIGINAL: Evangalist

Your absolutely right! U cant lose your salvation. But, you can give it away. Its just like Esau who sold his birth rights.

Corinth7-HOLD UP WAIT A MINUTE...lol God predestine from the Beginning that the OLDER would Serve the younger.......what God has predestined happens....AS those he Justified he also Glorifies....

It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 15 9:7 nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.” 16 9:8 This means 17 it is not the children of the flesh 18 who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants. 9:9 For this is what the promise declared: 19 “About a year from now 20 I will return and Sarah will have a son.” 21 9:10 Not only that, but when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, 22 our ancestor Isaac – 9:11 even before they were born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose in election 23 would stand, not by works but by 24 his calling) 25 – 9:12 26 it was said to her, “ The older will serve the younger,” 27 9:13 just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 28



Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Corinth7...Under the LAW...this is Correct.. AND to add WE ALL HAVE AN APPOINTMENT WITH DEATH


Even in the passage of the branch that was broken off and thrown into the fire, he was speaking symbolically. You r that branch and that fire represents hell. We must abide in Christ. This is why Paul said I fought a good fight, I kept the faith. Yes, we do make mistakes and yes we do sin from day to day. But there is a difference from willfully and mistakenly sinning. Failures will come, but the key is endure. Keep the faith.

Corinth7THE BRANCH....IS ISRAEL......THE LAW was their FAITH.....but when they did not go obey the command to Believe the Gospel.........they were cut off........BUT....they didn't continue in their FAITH.......So you are missing the point - for we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH



Ok here's a question. How did you receive the holy spirit. When you heard the word the truth and believed. Right? SO that shows you, that he can only come in your heart through faith. Ok, so wat happens when you stop believing? Will you still abide in him and he in you?
Remember, the just shall live by faith.. How can u live without it?

Corinth7 Once we believe WE ARE SEALED...in him WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE....THE PROMISE GUARANTEES OUR INHERITANCE.
NOW this goes along with your question? WHAT do u suppose we ARE SEALED WITH...THE WORD OF GOD.......now how do you stop believing what you are sealed in the MIND WITH?.....God protects us...Sorry fellow....God made it easy for us...


I will leave you with this...

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Those that were of the FAITH that would lead them into Salvation did not accept JESUS as the one who was to come.......So these were those who were first under the law...that was to Lead them to Christ......

They had fallen from GRACE- yet that didn't mean that God could not bring these in when they believe JESUS WAS THEIR SAVIOR....

Remember it is GRACE THROUGH FAITH THAT SAVES.........THIS PERIOD IS TRANSITION from Works under the Law to FAITH in JESUS CHRIST. Without remaining in CHRIST they could not bear fruits that come from the spirit. AND they did not remain....because they did not believe in what the LAW was to lead them to. WHICH was CHRIST. another words....JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW and if they did not accept JESUS then they could not also bear fruits.....and a tree that bears no fruit is useless.........

YOU must accept the gospel........in order to receive salvation-for the gospel is the power onto Salvation for everyone who believes.

When one understand the relationship between the law and the spirit of the law then- you come to maturity in the faith....for Eternal life is this: "Now this 1 is eternal life 2 – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, 3 whom you sent."

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In any thing that is said: I am also figuring those read the Bible too: I'm not here to quote the whole Bible: If I post something I know I can Back it up. If I stop...from talking to a Person it is because, I don't believe they are trying to get an understanding: They know what they want to know and therefore there is really nothing else to say. So if you see me Post , it is to the person that I post it to. If they can gain from it through further study then I am sure God is Glorified in our understanding. If they can't then move on to someone who wants to continue to argue. For me These Forums are a place for people to learn. Another words....Annyec move on to someone that wants to continue to argue with you. If I don't see a discussion or argument going anywhere then for me it's time to move on. In this case I'm done with any further conversation with you. "32" is doing a good job in helping he/she has given you some of the same answers I would..So take up your conversation with him/her or who ever else for now on.

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ORIGINAL: Evangalist

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Yes, Israel are the branches and we (the Gentiles) are the wild olive tree were only grafted in through faith. Israel, because of their unbelief where broken off and God spared not his choosen people then neither will he spare us if we stop believing. Now in order for something to be broken off, it first have to be attached to something. I wasnt saying that God wasnt able to bring them back to the faith that they once had. Let me take you back to the branch that didnt bare any fruit. Was it not later cut off and thrown into the fire. Ok. Well how can a branch that is cut off produce any fruit? It cant and if it continue to remain in such a state it soon will be thrown into the fire! This passage says it all. You can be broken off because of unbelief and its very possible for some1 who once believed to stop believing.

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ORIGINAL: AnnYEC

Corinth07,

You're mistaken about Jacob and Esau. See below from something I wrote on my Facebook:


“Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated” doesn't concern the individuals but the nations that came from them. I'll show you below.

The LORD said to her, “Two NATIONS are in your womb, and two PEOPLES from within you will be separated...; one PEOPLE will be stronger than the other, and the OLDER will SERVE the younger.”(Gen 25:23)
(Note that Esau never served Jacob.) The reason God hated Esau is stated in Obadiah:
Pride of heart, v. 3 Because of the violence against Jacob, v. 10 For not intervening on behalf of Jacob when that people was under attack, v. 11
For looking down on his brother in the day of his misfortune, v. 12 For entering the destroyed city and participating in the ransacking, v. 13 For ambushing their fugitives, v. 14

Malachi also talks about nations and not individuals. The entire people that came from Esau are being spoken of as being hated.
An oracle: The word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi.
“I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’
“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the Lord says, “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned HIS MOUNTAINS into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”
EDOM may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”
But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the Lord – even beyond the borders of Israel!”

So clearly Jacob and Esau cannot be used as support for that God selects certain people to be saved.

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ORIGINAL: AnnYEC

32k,

It's not our job to obey the 10 commandments? To be holy and pure? To submit to the holy spirit? God is supposed to do this for us? So if we fail, it's his fault?

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A: You will not be able to find that in the Bible. The Bible says our PAST sins are forgiven. "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins." (2 Pet 1:9)

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<<Colossians 2:13
"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,"- (ESV)
A: The above verse doesn't say our future sins are forgiven.

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<<Off the top of my head, an instance is the story of the prodigal son.
A: He lost his salvation due to sleeping around with prostitutes. Backsliding isn't mentioned.

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A: Yes, but the question is what happened to him before he repented. Unless Jesus lied, he lost his salvation, and didn't get it back until he repented.

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A: Peter for instance fell away for a while, the prodigal for weeks/months/years and King David for about a year.

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A: Yes it took one single offer (his death on the cross) to cover the sins of the whole world, so whosoever believes in him will be sanctified if they repent for their sins. This doesn't mean they are eternally secure though. They could still reject him in the future and lose their salvation.

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<<Hebrews 10:1 "For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near."
A: This doesn't show that a person cannot lose his salvation either. The law doesn't save. Jesus does, if we believe in him.

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<<Basically the points of those Scriptures I listed, were to show that by his death [Christ's] we've been forgiven all sins --
A: I of course agree with that. This doesn't mean we are forgiven for out future sins though. We cannot be forgiven for sins we haven't even committed yet.

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<<"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
A: Yes the salvation is for everyone who BELEVES

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<<Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." - (ESV)
A: Yes, he doesn't retract his offer of free salvation and the calling of people. The offer still stands.

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<<That gift being salvation of our souls, those whom God has elected.
A: The Bible doesn't say he elects people for salvation. This cannot be found anywhere in the Bible unless we take verses out of context and ignore others :)

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"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2nd Peter 3:9

/AnnYEC

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This cannot be found anywhere in the Bible unless we take verses out of context and ignore others :)

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Gal 5:4 speaks about falling from grace, to the point where Jesus is to no value. Naturally then the Galatians would have lost their salvation if Jesus was to no value to them. For a saved person Jesus is of GREAT value.

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ORIGINAL: AnnYEC

Corinth07,

You continue using the "seal" of God as support for your case, but it doesn't hold. Seals are marks and not unbreakable locks.

Gal 5:4 speaks about falling from grace, to the point where Jesus is to no value. Naturally then the Galatians would have lost their salvation if Jesus was to no value to them. For a saved person Jesus is of GREAT value.

And a little about the vine below. It's popular to try to avoid the clear meaning by trying to tie it to Israel, but even if Israel is often used as a comparison with the faith of the gentiles, we still get the same result:



"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. (John 15:1,2) Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:4-6)

Lk. 8:6. For a branch to wither (or die) shows it had life in it before then or it would be impossible for it to wither.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:12)

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. (John 15:7)

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. (John 15:8)

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Rom 11:19-23)


/AnnYEC

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ORIGINAL: 32k

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ORIGINAL: AnnYEC

Corinth07,

You continue using the "seal" of God as support for your case, but it doesn't hold. Seals are marks and not unbreakable locks.

Gal 5:4 speaks about falling from grace, to the point where Jesus is to no value. Naturally then the Galatians would have lost their salvation if Jesus was to no value to them. For a saved person Jesus is of GREAT value.

And a little about the vine below. It's popular to try to avoid the clear meaning by trying to tie it to Israel, but even if Israel is often used as a comparison with the faith of the gentiles, we still get the same result:



"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. (John 15:1,2) Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:4-6)

Lk. 8:6. For a branch to wither (or die) shows it had life in it before then or it would be impossible for it to wither.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:12)

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. (John 15:7)

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. (John 15:8)

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Rom 11:19-23)


/AnnYEC

Mind if I take a stab at this?

If those "branches" were really united with Christ, don't you think they'd have beared fruit? After all It is the root that supports the branch..."do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you."- Rom. 11:8 (ESV)
The root is the supply source. There are then two possibilities concerning John 15:2.

1.) That Christ purposley let the branch die
or
2.) That the branch was never really "in" Christ.

I'm leaning more to the second option. You see, the only reason they were a branch is because of their outward profession of faith. Yet having no faith at all. As the James said " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." - James 2:26 (ESV)
And as Jesus Said:
"No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away." - Luke 8:16-18 (ESV)

Concerning Lk. 8:6 (cf. Mat. 13:5-6)
All plants have life, The point isn't whether it was alive or not, the point is whether it had any root [Faith]. Jesus explains this in Lk. 8:13 "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away."

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ORIGINAL: Evangalist

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ORIGINAL: 32k

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ORIGINAL: AnnYEC

Corinth07,

You continue using the "seal" of God as support for your case, but it doesn't hold. Seals are marks and not unbreakable locks.

Gal 5:4 speaks about falling from grace, to the point where Jesus is to no value. Naturally then the Galatians would have lost their salvation if Jesus was to no value to them. For a saved person Jesus is of GREAT value.

And a little about the vine below. It's popular to try to avoid the clear meaning by trying to tie it to Israel, but even if Israel is often used as a comparison with the faith of the gentiles, we still get the same result:



"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. (John 15:1,2) Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:4-6)

Lk. 8:6. For a branch to wither (or die) shows it had life in it before then or it would be impossible for it to wither.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:12)

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. (John 15:7)

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. (John 15:8)

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Rom 11:19-23)


/AnnYEC

Mind if I take a stab at this?

If those "branches" were really united with Christ, don't you think they'd have beared fruit? After all It is the root that supports the branch..."do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you."- Rom. 11:8 (ESV)
The root is the supply source. There are then two possibilities concerning John 15:2.

1.) That Christ purposley let the branch die
or
2.) That the branch was never really "in" Christ.

I'm leaning more to the second option. You see, the only reason they were a branch is because of their outward profession of faith. Yet having no faith at all. As the James said " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." - James 2:26 (ESV)
And as Jesus Said:
"No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away." - Luke 8:16-18 (ESV)

Concerning Lk. 8:6 (cf. Mat. 13:5-6)
All plants have life, The point isn't whether it was alive or not, the point is whether it had any root [Faith]. Jesus explains this in Lk. 8:13 "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away."

1. Christ wouldnt let the branch die unless the branch chooses death itself. Christ came to give life more abundantly so we know that he wouldnt purposely do this. Niether is it his will for any 2 perish but have life everlasting.

2. Notice that the branches were attached. Now if your arms are attached 2 your body then we know that its apart of you. Even as the branches are apart of that vine. The key word in this passage is (remain)! If you continue in the True Vine then you will bear fruit. Endurance. You have 2 continue to abide in Christ. There are many that turn away from Christ even as the prodigal son. But the prodigal son came back to his father. Now those who have left Christ, yes, God is still waiting for them with open arms but not all will return. Lets look a Judas. He walked with Jesus. He was a disciple. Or look at the life of King Saul. Those who endure to the end or remain faithful are those who God accepts. I pray we all continue 2 be that faithful servant!

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Btw, Jesus called Judas a devil...so I'm not so sure he's a good example to use, show me where he bore fruit as a believer in Jesus, then I'd believe you.

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Btw, Jesus called Judas a devil...so I'm not so sure he's a good example to use, show me where he bore fruit as a believer in Jesus, then I'd believe you.

How about Matthew 10:1, "And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction."

If Judas was one of the twelve, and he was, then he had the authority to cast out demons and to heal every disease and every affliction just as much as any of the other 11 disciples. Nowhere does it say Judas was excluded from receiving this authority. And if he had the authority, and he did, then I'm sure he exercised that authority at least as much as the other disciples did.

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Corinth07,

You continue using the "seal" of God as support for your case, but it doesn't hold. Seals are marks and not unbreakable locks.

Gal 5:4 speaks about falling from grace, to the point where Jesus is to no value. Naturally then the Galatians would have lost their salvation if Jesus was to no value to them. For a saved person Jesus is of GREAT value.

And a little about the vine below. It's popular to try to avoid the clear meaning by trying to tie it to Israel, but even if Israel is often used as a comparison with the faith of the gentiles, we still get the same result:



"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. (John 15:1,2) Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:4-6)

Lk. 8:6. For a branch to wither (or die) shows it had life in it before then or it would be impossible for it to wither.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:12)

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. (John 15:7)

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. (John 15:8)

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Rom 11:19-23)


/AnnYEC

Mind if I take a stab at this?

If those "branches" were really united with Christ, don't you think they'd have beared fruit? After all It is the root that supports the branch..."do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you."- Rom. 11:8 (ESV)
The root is the supply source. There are then two possibilities concerning John 15:2.

1.) That Christ purposley let the branch die
or
2.) That the branch was never really "in" Christ.

I'm leaning more to the second option. You see, the only reason they were a branch is because of their outward profession of faith. Yet having no faith at all. As the James said " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." - James 2:26 (ESV)
And as Jesus Said:
"No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away." - Luke 8:16-18 (ESV)

Concerning Lk. 8:6 (cf. Mat. 13:5-6)
All plants have life, The point isn't whether it was alive or not, the point is whether it had any root [Faith]. Jesus explains this in Lk. 8:13 "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away."

1. Christ wouldnt let the branch die unless the branch chooses death itself. Christ came to give life more abundantly so we know that he wouldnt purposely do this. Niether is it his will for any 2 perish but have life everlasting.

2. Notice that the branches were attached. Now if your arms are attached 2 your body then we know that its apart of you. Even as the branches are apart of that vine. The key word in this passage is (remain)! If you continue in the True Vine then you will bear fruit. Endurance. You have 2 continue to abide in Christ. There are many that turn away from Christ even as the prodigal son. But the prodigal son came back to his father. Now those who have left Christ, yes, God is still waiting for them with open arms but not all will return. Lets look a Judas. He walked with Jesus. He was a disciple. Or look at the life of King Saul. Those who endure to the end or remain faithful are those who God accepts. I pray we all continue 2 be that faithful servant!

This is all very nice, but it ignores v. 4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me."

As for you arm example. It's one thing for (a) to be a part of (b), but if (a) isn't working....then one would question. If I have an arm but it dosen't work...it's just there...

Again, going back to what James says, " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." - James 2:26 (ESV)

If they don't bear any fruit, their faith is dead.

The parable of the soils is a crucial part in understanding John 15
Here's half of the text:
And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
-Mark 4:13-20

The first three soils represent those that are not saved. The foruth represents a genuine believer. If this is the case, then proof of one’s faith is bearing fruit. It is true however, that not all believers produce the same quantity of fruit, but they all do produce some fruit. The other 3 soils fail to produce any fruit.

Btw, Jesus called Judas a devil...so I'm not so sure he's a good example to use, show me where he bore fruit as a believer in Jesus, then I'd believe you.
And as for the Prodigal son, I'll ask you the same thing I asked AnnYec. Show me where in the story he stopped being his Father's son. He was still his son even when he was wasting his inheritance.
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Now about the prodigal son this says it all. I want you to carefully read this.
Luke 15:24 For this my son(prodigal son) was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. (Now, if they were merry when he came back, I wonder how they felt when he left)

Since you said Judas wasnt a good choice well wat about King Saul! He once walked with God altho not for very long?

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It does cause one who holds to Perseverance of the saints to wonder, but even in light of this scripture, I (or anyone who holds to PoS) could argue, "Though he had works, what good is it without faith?"