RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer Beliefs
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/16/2010 12:01:51 PM
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ASharpSword
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corinth7
I believe God does have control over a believer through Christ......through his LOVE...
If God controls a believer, then why does a believer sin even after being saved? Or are you saying that God only has a certain specific control?
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/16/2010 8:07:28 PM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corinth7
I believe God does have control over a believer through Christ......through his LOVE...
If God controls a believer, then why does a believer sin even after being saved? Or are you saying that God only has a certain specific control?
Let me re post:
Hello there,
I believe God does have control over a believer through Christ......through his LOVE...
For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, that God has prepared before hand that we should walk in them
If We are slaves to Righteousness, he has to have some type of Control
It is HIS Words that are in our mind that help shape how we think, feel, and do (refer to John 1;1)
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/18/2010 6:28:11 AM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
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Corinth07,
Oups, looks like my subscription to this thread didn't work! Sorry for delay.
<<A: As long as we remain in Jesus.
<<Are you asking me or telling me? I would rather if we argue a position that it is always done on the basis of Scripture
A: OK:
"Remain in me, and I will remain in you."---"If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:4-6)
<<A: The problem is that these explanations don't come from the Bible itself but us human beings. A person can have the holy spirit, and still turn away and lose his/her salvation.
<<1 Corinthians 6;11[/--1 Corinthians 1:2 --
A: The above does not provide support for that "sanctified" means that we are a secure spot in heaven. The passages only show that our sins are washed away up to that point. It does not rule out that a christian can leave grace and his faith and go back to live in the world.
<<I believe Romans explains the definition justification in Romans 3:24, 28; 5:1, 9.
Romans 6 explains sanctification
A: Sure, but again, the above verses do no give support for that we are eternally secure.
<<JESUS Death covers all our sins and please as I will be happy to...back all your replies up with scripture
A: Yes of course death covers all our sins. The question is...can we freely continue to sin also in the FUTURE and still be saved? No we cannot. It's our past sins that are forgiven. (2 Pet 1:9) Jesus also told us to cut off body parts if they made us sin, in order to not be thrown into hell. (I hope you don't require scriptures for these types of statements as well? Let me know if you can't find it.)
<<Saving faith produces good works/and i'm really not concerned with calvin...but what scripture says
A: Saving faith does not always produce good fruit, as numerous cases in the Bible show - such as the examples of the prodigal son, King David, Demas, etc. If we live according to our sinful flesh we will die for it.
<<It is not our works that SAVES us......it is Jesus's works........therefore faith without works is NOT DEAD--
A: Faith without works is NOT dead? So we are free to murder, commit adultery, lie and steal and still be saved? The Bible says the contrary:
"The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)
To see that sins preven us to enter heaven, read: Gal 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, Eph. 5:5-7, Rev 21:8,
<<A: Amen. And if we don't obey the commandments and don't repent, we are lost.
<<Says who? Repentance is found in Christ
A: Yes, but if we don't repent we are lost.
<<Where does scripture say , if you "no longer abide"
A: See above.
<<In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
A: Sealed simply means we are marked, which we are if we have the holy spirit. If we turn our backs on him and no longer follow him, we have broken the seal and we are no longer saved.
<<Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13,14
A: No support for OSAS either. Believers are chosen to inherit his kingdom, and this was planned before the world began.
<<Here is a trustworthy saying: If we diedwith him, we will also live with him; If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
A: Right, Jesus can naturally not deny himself and his own promises, but he can certainly deny us and he promises that he will. "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Mat 10:33)
<<If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
A: You should have highlighted another word, namely the IF word! IF IF IF we confess our sins, THEN we will be cleansed from ALL our unrighteousness. But what if we do NOT confess our sins? Then we are doomed.
<<If We are slaves to Righteousness, he has to have some type of Control --
A: WE are asked to control our bodies and to live after the holy spirit and not after our flesh. God will not do this for us. WE have to make sure we submit to Him. "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him." 2nd Cor 5:9
<<Another way of putting it, is that people have to know Salvation is a Gift, AND we are not SAVED by our works.....................
A: You compare salvation with a gift. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it's also possible to accept the gift and keep it for a while and later throw it away.
<<If you tell someone that you have to work to be SAVED then you confused the message of GRACE, Which on the contrary many of those who do not believe in OSAS do not fully understand
A: One thing calvinists and free-willers agree on is that we are NOT saved by doing works. Yet calvinists raise up this issue time and again as though they believe we are in disagreement about this. We are not! It doesn't matter if you fill your days with good works because if you don't have faith, you're still lost. However, I still claim that faith without good deeds is dead.
<<Because if one believes that they keep their self SAVED...then they also believe they are a part of their salvation-
A: I haven't seen anyone on this forum disagreeing with this.
<<So I said, "in a way, but not the way" because our assurance of Salvation is based on our walk in the faith. --
A: All don't continue to walk in faith though. If we love Jesus, we obey him. If we begin sinning and don't repent for it, we have lost our salvation. Sinners cannot enter the kingdom, and the verses I provided above makes this very clear.
"Jesus replied, “IF anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” (John 14:23)
<<A good example....is Before men..Abraham could be Justified by his works (what they seen him do), but not Before God. Before God he is Justified by what he believed. So truly it is NOT our own works of righteousness that SAVE, It is Jesus's Work's that SAVE, and our lives are to be a living testimony of the Salvation already given. Now these works that we do are through Christ.
A: Read that Abraham had both faith and good deeds and they worked together: Had Abraham not had good deeds, he would not have been saved: "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? (James 2:20) Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21) You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (James 2:22) And the scripture was fulfilled that says,Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God' friend. (James 2:23) You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (James 2:24)
<<So, no I don't believe OSAS is a license to sin, but I believe that those who usually misunderstand the concept, also do not understand GRACE.
A: I know what grace means and I wonder if you perhaps have misunderstood it since you are teaching a license to sin. Grace means we can now say NO to sin!
"For the grace of God that BRINGS SALVATION has appeared to ALL MEN. It teaches us to say NO to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, (Titus 2:11,12)
<<Means we through belief of the gospel of Christ, declared righteous by our belief, now have to die to sin.
A: Don't ever forget the IF. "Dear friends, IF IF IF our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we OBEY HIS COMMANDS and do what pleases him." (1 John 3:21-22)
<< But in my opinion, Because the gifts of God are irrevocable.....(Salvation vs Employee Status).....Eternal Salvation is not LOST.
A: Read the parable in Matthew 18, and you will see that the King forgave his servant his sins (debts), but when the same servant later on refused to forgive another persons' debts (sins) then the King brought up the same already forgiven sins again and held it against his servant! The servant was first 100% cleansed and should have been eternally secured, but he wasn't. OSAS doesn't hold water. The teaching that sins will only make a person lose rewards instead of his soul is very dangerous. That's the same lie that Satan told Even in the garden. He managed to make her believe that she would NOT die if she ate of the fruit, but that OSAS claim was incorrect. She did die.
<<so to the man who stops works has not confidence, or assurance of Salvation, which means no PEACE or JOY in his life.
A: A clear "license to sin" teaching or "security in sin". This teaching could make a person who is addicted to sins, to NOT stop sinning. He might sin less, but he might feel so sure of that he will not lose his salvaition that he loses his motivation to stop entirely. And what does the Bible say about this? Drunkards cannot enter the kingdom! This person is hell bound and doesn't even know it, and OSAS teachers persuade him that "all is well". Only rewards are at stake.
<<It is HIS Words that are in our mind that help shape how we think, feel, and do (refer to John 1;1)
A: Amen so IF we submit to him, we can overcome sins.
Sword
<<sword: AnnYEC, amen. I agree with nearly everything you have written. You clearly know your stuff when it comes to this topic. One thing I notice with the folks who adhere to OSAS is almost a tendency to believe that God has control over a believer.
A: Thanks for your kind words. Yes, I believe God is in total control, but he maintains this control eventhough we have free will.
_____________________________
John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/20/2010 4:34:16 PM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
Status: offline
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<<A: As long as we remain in Jesus.
<<Are you asking me or telling me? I would rather if we argue a position that it is always done on the basis of Scripture
A: OK:
"Remain in me, and I will remain in you."---"If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:4-6)
B:Corinth7- Remaining in him...means to remain in his word ..for without The Word there is no forgiveness of sin......
<<A: The problem is that these explanations don't come from the Bible itself but us human beings. A person can have the holy spirit, and still turn away and lose his/her salvation.
<<1 Corinthians 6;11[/--1 Corinthians 1:2 --
B: Corinth7: What explanations do not come from the Bible? A Person cannot have the HOLY SPIRIT and LOSE THE HOLY SPIRIT AT the SAME time.........That is incorrect.....JESUS IS LIFE HIMSELF.....JESUS IS ETERNAL...THE WORD IS ETERNAL
A: The above does not provide support for that "sanctified" means that we are a secure spot in heaven. The passages only show that our sins are washed away up to that point. It does not rule out that a christian can leave grace and his faith and go back to live in the world.
B: Corinth7 Did you ever ask for a scripture proving OSAS?
B: Corinth7: 1co 6;11 Some of you once lived this way. 8 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ 9 and by the Spirit of our God.
These scriptures are past tense...
1 co 1:2 to the church of God that is in Corinth, 3 to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.
For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. 1
<<I believe Romans explains the definition justification in Romans 3:24, 28; 5:1, 9.
Romans 6 explains sanctification
A: Sure, but again, the above verses do no give support for that we are eternally secure.
B: Corinth7- I did not give you these passages to explain OSAS...I CAn though, there are plenty...I gave them to help you understand the difference between Justification and sanctification
<<JESUS Death covers all our sins and please as I will be happy to...back all your replies up with scripture
A: Yes of course death covers all our sins. The question is...can we freely continue to sin also in the FUTURE and still be saved? No we cannot.
B. Corinth7We sin everyday by our thoughts, ways, and actions...we sin by omission, and comission. And I don't believe a Christian.....by the very term in his MIND will Train it towards sin.
It's our past sins that are forgiven.
Corinth7... is that all you are saying is forgiven? Because if so...then what are you striving for?
Please Post a Scripture that says ONLY are past sins are forgiven?
1 john 1;9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, 1 forgiving 2 us our sins and cleansing 3 us from all unrighteousness.
(2 Pet 1:9) Jesus also told us to cut off body parts if they made us sin, in order to not be thrown into hell. (I hope you don't require scriptures for these types of statements as well? Let me know if you can't find it.)
Corinth7 Have you cut off your hand yet?
Hebrews 7;25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
<<Saving faith produces good works/and i'm really not concerned with calvin...but what scripture says
A: Saving faith does not always produce good fruit, as numerous cases in the Bible show - such as the examples of the prodigal son, King David, Demas, etc. If we live according to our sinful flesh we will die for it.
B: Corinth7 ARe you saying the prodigal son never had any fruit, or King David never had any fruit,...etc?????
B. You said if we live according to r sinful flesh we will die for it?.....What do you mean..What is the author trying to show....
B. Will he die spiritually or physically....and what is the difference???
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)
When we are declared righteous...it is based on the Works of Christ....So works always follow righteousness....
<<It is not our works that SAVES us......it is Jesus's works........therefore faith without works is NOT DEAD--
A: Faith without works is NOT dead?
B. Corinth7...shall I re post: b]It is not our works that SAVES us......it is Jesus's works........therefore faith without works is NOT DEAD- Don't take part of what I said....
So we are free to murder, commit adultery, lie and steal and still be saved? The Bible says the contrary:
Corinth7-HOW DID YOU GET HERE?..Do you not know that if you present yourselves 1 as obedient slaves, 2 you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6;16
"The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)
To see that sins preven us to enter heaven, read: Gal 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, Eph. 5:5-7, Rev 21:8,
B. Corinth7: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 1
<<A: Amen. And if we don't obey the commandments and don't repent, we are lost.
<<Says who? Repentance is found in Christ
what commands???? if you are speaking of the command to believe and to love...then you are correct.. But then again...if you never believed..then u were always lost and never saved... 
A: Yes, but if we don't repent we are lost.
B. Corinth7 IF you are a christian..then you have already repented..Believing that JESUS SAVES..and not you yourself.....
<<Where does scripture say , if you "no longer abide"
A: See above.
B. And for this reason- I believe one should understand the difference between justification and sanctification....do a study on that.... That way you will not take every scripture alike....
Many times in scripture.....the author will use old testament passages to help us understand persevering in the faith.....
<<In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
A: Sealed simply means we are marked, which we are if we have the holy spirit. If we turn our backs on him and no longer follow him, we have broken the seal and we are no longer saved.
B. Corinth7: So you are saying that the holy spirit leaves you when you sin? you are incorrect...He told his disciples the holy spirit will be with them forever....
B. Coirnth7: you are missing the whole point of the seal of the HOLY spirit. For look what follows this scripture
"who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."
B. Corinth7: It says UNTIL THE REDEMPTION....so...we can't add to this scripture..it says what it says....
<<Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13,14
A: No support for OSAS either. Believers are chosen to inherit his kingdom, and this was planned before the world began.
Corinth 7:Ephesians 1;13..supports OSAS....we are sealed until the day of redemption.....and the holy spirit is the guarantee
<<Here is a trustworthy saying: If we diedwith him, we will also live with him; If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
A: Right, Jesus can naturally not deny himself and his own promises, but he can certainly deny us and he promises that he will. "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Mat 10:33)
B: Corinth7: ??? Deny us what? Is this passage speaking of those of faith..or those of no faith?
And what are we denied..rewards?????? does it say?
B. Corinth7..Even though it does not say.....This scripture truly shows...a person of faith doesn't deny his son..:
B. Corinth 7-Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. The person who confesses the Son has the Father also. John 2;23....So there you have it...if we suppose this scripture was talking about "deny" in the way you think....then....You are incorrect.
B. Corinth7; John 6;37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. 1
<<If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
A: You should have highlighted another word, namely the IF word! IF IF IF we confess our sins, THEN we will be cleansed from ALL our unrighteousness. But what if we do NOT confess our sins? Then we are doomed.
B. Corinth 7......for this scripture is not speaking about a Christian: Lets read it:
If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, 21 we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1:9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, 22 forgiving 23 us our sins and cleansing 24 us from all unrighteousness. 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.
"
B. Corinth7...another words...a Christian knows they have sin.....therefore accepting the gospel for forgiveness
<<If We are slaves to Righteousness, he has to have some type of Control --
A: WE are asked to control our bodies and to live after the holy spirit and not after our flesh. God will not do this for us. WE have to make sure we submit to Him. "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him." 2nd Cor 5:9
<<Another way of putting it, is that people have to know Salvation is a Gift, AND we are not SAVED by our works.....................
A: You compare salvation with a gift. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it's also possible to accept the gift and keep it for a while and later throw it away.
B. Corinth7 not me, Scripture says it is a gift.... I agree a gift can be accepted or rejected if their is choice in the matter...........HOwever when we accept this Gift we are SEALED WITH IT....And no one can unseal the seal of the HOLY SPIRIT...but God at his appointed promised time "The DAY of REDEMPTION Ephesians 1;13)
<<If you tell someone that you have to work to be SAVED then you confused the message of GRACE, Which on the contrary many of those who do not believe in OSAS do not fully understand
A: One thing calvinists and free-willers agree on is that we are NOT saved by doing works. Yet calvinists raise up this issue time and again as though they believe we are in disagreement about this. We are not! It doesn't matter if you fill your days with good works because if you don't have faith, you're still lost. However, I still claim that faith without good deeds is dead.
B. Corinth7...and I agree ..but most likely with a diff understanding than u have....
<<Because if one believes that they keep their self SAVED...then they also believe they are a part of their salvation-
A: I haven't seen anyone on this forum disagreeing with this.
<<So I said, "in a way, but not the way" because our assurance of Salvation is based on our walk in the faith. --
A: All don't continue to walk in faith though. If we love Jesus, we obey him. If we begin sinning and don't repent for it, we have lost our salvation.
B. Corinth7: IF WE LOST OUR SALVATION>>>THEN WE CANT REPENT>>>>>
How much time do we have ...before we loose it? lol.....Give some scripture backward for your statements please
IT IS GOD'S LOVE That brings man to repentance.... So your incorrect.....LET GOD BE THE JUDGE OF EVERYMAN............Romans 2;4: Or do you have contempt for the wealth of his kindness, forbearance, and patience, and yet do not know 1 that God’s kindness leads you to repentance?
Sinners cannot enter the kingdom, and the verses I provided above makes this very clear.
"Jesus replied, “IF anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” (John 14:23)
Corinth7 Sinners who are not saved by Grace (will not enter you are right)...HOwever sinners who trust in God for salvation do enter...through the works of Christ
<<A good example....is Before men..Abraham could be Justified by his works (what they seen him do), but not Before God. Before God he is Justified by what he believed. So truly it is NOT our own works of righteousness that SAVE, It is Jesus's Work's that SAVE, and our lives are to be a living testimony of the Salvation already given. Now these works that we do are through Christ.
A: Read that Abraham had both faith and good deeds and they worked together: Had Abraham not had good deeds, he would not have been saved:
B: Corinth7 Romans 4;2 For if Abraham was declared righteous 1 by the works of the law, he has something to boast about – but not before God.
B. Corinth7 I will stick with scripture: Romans 4;3"For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited 1 to him as righteousness.”
"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? (James 2:20) Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21) You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (James 2:22) And the scripture was fulfilled that says,Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God' friend. (James 2:23) You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (James 2:24)
<<So, no I don't believe OSAS is a license to sin, but I believe that those who usually misunderstand the concept, also do not understand GRACE.
A: I know what grace means and I wonder if you perhaps have misunderstood it since you are teaching a license to sin.
B. Corinth7: I have never taught a license to sin....lol...that is a HUGE LIE...........Please show me one place where I have..............but I realize...it is because I said you do not understand grace that you have gotten offended....so NO BIG DEAL>>>its not unusual....with people who do not understand GRACE........................JUST I JUST KNOW>>>THAT God SAVED us.......BY HIS GRACE through FAITH....and we are saved to do good works................NOT because of our works.....So...if you think..what I just said is teaching a license to sin....lol...then.....you can have faulty logic...if you like...............But I KNOW THE God I SERVE KNOWS.....the truth and blessed are those who are slandered...
Grace means we can now say NO to sin!
Corinth7......NO Grace means:favor 7, thanks 5, by grace 3, of grace 3, credit 3, gracious 2, act of kindness
"For the grace of God that BRINGS SALVATION has appeared to ALL MEN. It teaches us to say NO to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, (Titus 2:11,12)
Corinth7: This passage is scripture: but you have no point? Growing Christians KNOW they are to live their lives unto God.
<<Means we through belief of the gospel of Christ, declared righteous by our belief, now have to die to sin.
A: Don't ever forget the IF. "Dear friends, IF IF IF our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we OBEY HIS COMMANDS and do what pleases him." (1 John 3:21-22)
B. Corinth7: according to what I said " when we believed we are declared righteous" is something we have already done....(justification)
B. Corinth7: YEs sometimes Christians do not have confidence...but that doesn't mean they are not saved....The key is that we are suppose to persevere in the faith, because that is what we are SAVED to do.
<< But in my opinion, Because the gifts of God are irrevocable.....(Salvation vs Employee Status).....Eternal Salvation is not LOST.
A: Read the parable in Matthew 18, and you will see that the King forgave his servant his sins (debts), but when the same servant later on refused to forgive another persons' debts (sins) then the King brought up the same already forgiven sins again and held it against his servant! The servant was first 100% cleansed and should have been eternally secured, but he wasn't. OSAS doesn't hold water. The teaching that sins will only make a person lose rewards instead of his soul is very dangerous. That's the same lie that Satan told Even in the garden. He managed to make her believe that she would NOT die if she ate of the fruit, but that OSAS claim was incorrect. She did die.
<<so to the man who stops works has not confidence, or assurance of Salvation, which means no PEACE or JOY in his life.
A: A clear "license to sin" teaching or "security in sin". This teaching could make a person who is addicted to sins, to NOT stop sinning. He might sin less, but he might feel so sure of that he will not lose his salvaition that he loses his motivation to stop entirely. And what does the Bible say about this? Drunkards cannot enter the kingdom! This person is hell bound and doesn't even know it, and OSAS teachers persuade him that "all is well". Only rewards are at stake.
B. Corinth7: A parable is meant to teach....you can't apply everything that says LOSS..lol or unforgiveness to "loosing salvation".....this is a parable...
<<It is HIS Words that are in our mind that help shape how we think, feel, and do (refer to John 1;1)
A: Amen so IF we submit to him, we can overcome sins.
B. Corinth 7 we are already over comers..those in Christ JESUS-because he overcame sin...
" 1john 5;4 because 1 everyone 2 who has been fathered by God 3 conquers 4 the world. 5 This 6 is the conquering power 7 that has conquered 8 the world: our faith."
Corinth7 "Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place."
< Message edited by Corinth7 -- 7/20/2010 8:39:49 PM >
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/21/2010 12:36:48 PM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
Status: offline
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Corinth7
<<B:Corinth7- Remaining in him...means to remain in his word ..for without The Word there is no forgiveness of sin......
A: Read again in John 15 and you will see that we are talking remaining in JESUS. He does say "remain in ME". It further shows that a person can first be IN Jesus but, but might not remain in that position, because Jesus says that the branch can be cut off and thrown into the fire and burned. It will "wither", and the branch can't wither unless it had life to start with.
<<B: Corinth7: -- A Person cannot have the HOLY SPIRIT and LOSE THE HOLY SPIRIT AT the SAME time.........---
A: A person can first have the holy spirit and then lose it. This is for instance what happened to Saul when the spirit of God departed from him and he got another spirit. That was his own fault. Na
<<B: Corinth7: 1co 6;11 Some of you once lived this way. 8 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ 9 and by the Spirit of our God.
A: Right, but justified/sanctified doesn't mean the person has a secure spot in heaven. They can still pull away from God.
<<1 co 1:2 to the church of God that is in Corinth, 3 to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.
A: Same thing here. Sanctified doesn't mean the person has a secure spot in heaven. A person can be labelled saved, born again, sealed, sanctified, justified, etc, but still later walk away from God and lose his salvation. We are only saved and secure as long as we abide in Jesus. If we no longer bear the right fruit, we will be cut off and that is a promise.
<<For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
A: Right, but you still have to look in the rest of the Bible to see if there are other requirements. For instance we can read "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 7:21) This seems to contradict your verse at first glance, but we can combine the two instead. Yes, we are saved if we call on him, but then we must call on him from a true heart and repent for our sins, and we must naturally bear the fruit to go with it. There are many verses to this effect and they must not be ignored.
<<B: Corinth7- --I gave them to help you understand the difference between Justification and sanctification
A: Right, but since we are discussing OSAS, I can only say that a person can be lost even if he is both justified and sanctified.
<<B. Corinth7We sin everyday by our thoughts, ways, and actions...we sin by omission, and comission. And I don't believe a Christian.....by the very term in his MIND will Train it towards sin.
A. We do not sin every day and this is a dangerous teaching. If that were so, then it's tempting for christians to continue in sin, or commit new tempting sins, and they wouldn't have a motivation to let go of addictions. This is exactly what Satan would like to achieve. He would like us to believe we MUST sin daily,, and if we believe him we're risking to not even feel bad about our sins, and then we might not even repent. If we don't we are hell bound, which is exactly what Satan is aiming for. The Bible however says the opposite. We CAN live holy and pure!
"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Pet 5:8,9)
"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Gal. 5:16)
<<Corinth7... is that all you are saying is forgiven? Because if so...then what are you striving for?
Please Post a Scripture that says ONLY are past sins are forgiven?
A: I posted a scripture where it says our PAST sins are forgiven. Can you post a scripture where it says also our FUTURE sins are forgiven at the point of being born again? If not, I feel my verse still stands. Combine that verse with the rest of what I've mentioned. Jesus told us that IF we disown him (which might happen in the future) then he will disown us. If we refuse to forgive a brother (can happen in the future) then God will not forgive us. Drunkards cannot enter heaven, but if a person starts to live a life by getting drunk and don't repent for it (can happen in the future) then he can't enter. We are clearly not forgiven for our future sins.
<<1 john 1;9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, 1 forgiving 2 us our sins and cleansing 3 us from all unrighteousness.
A: IF we confess he is faithul and then we will be forgiven for ALL our sins - those sins we have committed and which naturally are in the PAST.
<<Corinth7 Have you cut off your hand yet?
A: No, because it's way more easier to avoid sinning. (Note that the Bible doesn't claim all sins will make us lose our salvation if we commit them after we are born again, such as worrying, not being completely thankful or helpful, etc. I do claim we can avoid sins such as those in Gal 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, Eph. 5:5-7, Rev 21:8, etc and which will prevent us from entering heaven if we commit them.)
<<Hebrews 7;25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
A: Yes of course he makes intercession for those who COME to God through him. As I said; if we repent and ask for forgiveness, all our sins are cleansed. No arguments there.
<<A: Saving faith does not always produce good fruit, as numerous cases in the Bible show - such as the examples of the prodigal son, King David, Demas, etc. If we live according to our sinful flesh we will die for it.
<<B: Corinth7 ARe you saying the prodigal son never had any fruit, or King David never had any fruit,...etc?????
A: No, where did you get that idea? Both those examples show they were saved, lost and saved again. When they were saved they naturally produced good fruit. Had they died during their lost condition, they wouldn't have made it to heaven. Immoral people cannot enter.
<<B. You said if we live according to r sinful flesh we will die for it?.....What do you mean..What is the author trying to show....
A: He is saying the same thing as this verse: "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Rev 21:27)
<<B. Will he die spiritually or physically....and what is the difference???
A: We will all die physically, but we can also die spiritually and that is when we are hell bound due to unbelief or other sins not repented for.
<<But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)
A: IF Christ is in us, yes. But what if he is no longer in us?
<<When we are declared righteous...it is based on the Works of Christ....So works always follow righteousness....
A: King David was clearly NOT righteous when he lived a year in adultery and murder, so works do NOT always follow righteousness. We are only declared righteous as long as we remain in Jesus and bear the right fruit.
<<A: Faith without works is NOT dead?
<<B. Corinth7...shall I re post: b]It is not our works that SAVES us......it is Jesus's works........therefore faith without works is NOT DEAD- Don't take part of what I said....
A: You only posted a verse where it says that we are saved by FAITH, but where does it say that faith WITHOUT works is not dead? Nowhere, and that is because it's not so. The Bible says the exact opposite: "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:26)
<<Corinth7-HOW DID YOU GET HERE?..Do you not know that if you present yourselves 1 as obedient slaves, 2 you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6;16
A: Right, so if we show in our actions (adultery, murder, idolatry, etc) that we obey Satan, then naturally we can't be saved if we don't repent for them. So again, do you feel King David and the prodigal son were both saved when King David committed adultery and murder, and when the prodigal son was sleeping around with prostitutes? If you tell me that "yes, they were still saved" then you are teaching a license to sin, and you're telling me that idolators, immoral people, etc can all enter heaven without even repenting for their sins. "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Rev 21:27)
<<B. Corinth7: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 1
A: Again, those who are IN JESUS! What if you are no longer in Jesus though? You're clearly not in Jesus if you commit adultery.
<<A: Amen. And if we don't obey the commandments and don't repent, we are lost. --
<<what commands???? if you are speaking of the command to believe and to love...then you are correct.. But then again...if you never believed..then u were always lost and never saved...
A: I'm speaking about the 10 commandments. Or are you again saying that believers who are gulty of murder, idolatry, adultery, theft, lies, etc will still enter heaven eventhough they don't repent for their sins? Since when can unrepented sinners enter heaven?
<<B. Corinth7 IF you are a christian..then you have already repented..Believing that JESUS SAVES..and not you yourself.....
A: Then why can we read in Rev 2:5, which is addressed to a church which has already once repented " Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the FIRST WORKS; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT thou repent"?
Clearly repenting isn't a one time occurence. Your teaching is dangerous Corinth. I pray you will study this subject more.
<<B. And for this reason- I believe one should understand the difference between justification and sanctification....do a study on that.... That way you will not take every scripture alike.... --
A: It wouldn't make a difference since a person can still lose his salvation.
<<B. Corinth7: So you are saying that the holy spirit leaves you when you sin? you are incorrect...He told his disciples the holy spirit will be with them forever....
A: No, I'm not saying the holy spirit leaves after each sin. Saul sinned for quite some times before the holy spirit finally left him. Jesus told his disciples that the holy spirit would be with them forever because that was the truth in their case, and which is true for all who keep their faith. The normal scenario is that the holy spirit convicts a person of his sins and he repents, but unfortunately a believer can refuse to submit to the holy spirit and instead follow the flesh and even harden his heart forever.
<<B. Coirnth7: you are missing the whole point of the seal of the HOLY spirit. For look what follows this scripture
"who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."
A: An elect person is a person who believes in Jesus, and God uses his foreknowledge when he knows who they will be. They were known before the world began and they have a secure spot in heaven. It's all due to their faith in Jesus. There is always a condition for salvation, and that is that we must remain in him.
Here is a great link to study for you about Ephesians 1 and the seal.
http://evangelicalarminians.org/Henshaw.Some-Further-Reflections-on-the-Nature-of-the-Sealing-of-the-Holy-Spirit-in-Eph-1.13-and-4.30
<<B: Corinth7: ??? Deny us what? Is this passage speaking of those of faith..or those of no faith?
And what are we denied..rewards?????? does it say?
A: Read again: "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Mat 10:33) Those words were addressed to Jesus own disciples who were saved. If you're disowned, you're no longer saved. Unless you repent of course.
<<B. Corinth7..Even though it does not say.....This scripture truly shows...a person of faith doesn't deny his son..:
A: Jesus would deny people who disown him, and cowards cannot enter the kingdom according to Rev.
<<B. Corinth 7-Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. The person who confesses the Son has the Father also. John 2;23....So there you have it...if we suppose this scripture was talking about "deny" in the way you think....then....You are incorrect.
A: Also that verse confirms what I'm saying . If we deny the son, we deny the father. We are then no longer saved. Remember the story in Matthews. Jesus told his disciples that they would ALL fall away. Peter denied he would, but Jesus told him that he would disown him 3 times, which he later did. That's when Jesus told them that whosoever disowns him, he would be disowned. Jesus wasn't lying.
<<B. Corinth7; John 6;37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away.
A: Right, and WHO were given to the Father? Those who would endure to the end in their belief. God knows who they are, and they were known from before the world was created.
<<If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, 21 we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1:9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, 22 forgiving 23 us our sins and cleansing 24 us from all unrighteousness. 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.
A: Yes, all have sinned, including Paul. No arguments there. I'm saying that after we are born again, we should cease sinning and be pure. "Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your SOUL"
<<B. Corinth7 not me, Scripture says it is a gift.... I agree a gift can be accepted or rejected if their is choice in the matter...........HOwever when we accept this Gift we are SEALED WITH IT....---
A: Study this thing about being sealed again in the link above very carefully, and I say again; a seal doesn't mean it's unbreakable. It's a unique mark and not a lock. We will have the holy spirit until the day of redemption, unless we pull away from God of course. Then we are no longer marked.
<<B. Corinth7: IF WE LOST OUR SALVATION>>>THEN WE CANT REPENT>>>>>
A: We can't? Who says so? Of course we can.
<<How much time do we have ...before we loose it? lol.....Give some scripture backward for your statements please
A: We lose our salvation if we disown Jesus, refuse to forgive another or sin in other ways. It happens righ away, and until we repent. Some repent after a second, some after year and some never do. I have provided scriptures. Study the sins again that prevent a person from entering heaven: Gal 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, Eph. 5:5-7, Rev 21:8.
<<IT IS GOD'S LOVE That brings man to repentance.... So your incorrect.....LET GOD BE THE JUDGE OF EVERYMAN............Romans 2;4: Or do you have contempt for the wealth of his kindness, forbearance, and patience, and yet do not know 1 that God’s kindness leads you to repentance?
A: Yes the holy spirit convicts us of our sins so we can repent, but what if we don't submit to the holy spirit? What if we obey our flesh instead and harden our hearts? Read the rest of the passage: " "5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by PERSISTENCE in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."
<<Corinth7 Sinners who are not saved by Grace (will not enter you are right)...HOwever sinners who trust in God for salvation do enter...through the works of Christ
A: Not if they are unrepented sinners. Unless you believe there are 2 types of murderers, 2 types of adulterers, 2 types of idolators etc. One type that is saved (due to a past moment's of faith) and one type that is unsaved. The Bible teaches there is only one type, and that type is always lost. Immoral people cannot enter whoever they are, and regardless of their past experiences.
<<A: Read that Abraham had both faith and good deeds and they worked together: Had Abraham not had good deeds, he would not have been saved:
<<B: Corinth7 Romans 4;2 For if Abraham was declared righteous 1 by the works of the law, he has something to boast about – but not before God.
A: Does that mean you're just ignoring James 2 20-24? It clearly says that Abraham was saved by faith, but he combined it with work! If he wouldn't have, he wouldn't have been saved. It says "his faith and his actions were working together"
<<B. Corinth7 I will stick with scripture: Romans 4;3"For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited 1 to him as righteousness.”
A: I'm not saying anything against that. I'm saying that he also combined it with works which James 2:20-24 says. That's scripture too, right?
<<B. Corinth7: I have never taught a license to sin....lol...that is a HUGE LIE...........Please show me one place where I have..............but I realize...it is because I said you do not understand grace that you have gotten offended....so NO BIG DEAL>>>its not unusual....with people who do not understand GRACE........................JUST I JUST KNOW>>>THAT God SAVED us.......BY HIS GRACE through FAITH....and we are saved to do good works................NOT because of our works.....So...if you think..what I just said is teaching a license to sin....lol...then.....you can have faulty logic...if you like...............But I KNOW THE God I SERVE KNOWS.....the truth and blessed are those who are slandered...
A: Corinth, you are teaching a license to sin in about every third comment you write :) You're trying to convince me that King David and the prodigal son were still saved despite being guilty of murder, adultery and sleeping with prostitutes, and that a born again christian can never ever lose his salvation no matter what, so that must mean that a person is still saved even if he were a professional thief and murderer and married to his boyfriend. Correct me if I'm wrong :)
You're again repeating that we aren't saved because of our works as though I disagreed with that. I'm not. I'm saying faith without works is dead.
<<A Grace means we can now say NO to sin!
<<Corinth7......NO Grace means:favor 7, thanks 5, by grace 3, of grace 3, credit 3, gracious 2, act of kindness
A: Corinth...Wait a minute here. First of all grace DOES mean we can say no to sins.
"For the GRACE of God that BRINGS SALVATION has appeared to ALL men. It teaches us to say NO to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives IN THIS PRESENT AGE" (Titus 2:11,12)
It's better to let the Bible explain words than a lexicon. So clearly the grace of God that brings salvation teaches us to say NO to sins.
<<Corinth7: This passage is scripture: but you have no point? Growing Christians KNOW they are to live their lives unto God.
A: The point is that grace means we can live sinfree, and that is the opposite teaching from the grace-changers who would like us to believe that grace means that if we are only 80% sinfree, then grace comes in and covers for the 20% so our status will always be 100% sinfree. Well that's a dangerous teaching. True grace teaches that we can say NO to sin!
<<B. Corinth7: according to what I said " when we believed we are declared righteous" is something we have already done....(justification)
A: It doesn't matter since there is always a day tomorrow and we must carry our cross daily and always remain pure and endured to the END to be saved. The servant in Matt 18 was first cleansed from his debts (sins) so he should have been eternally secure, yet he was thrown into jail for eternity due to his actions.
<<B. Corinth7: YEs sometimes Christians do not have confidence...but that doesn't mean they are not saved....The key is that we are suppose to persevere in the faith, because that is what we are SAVED to do.
<< But in my opinion, Because the gifts of God are irrevocable.....(Salvation vs Employee Status).....Eternal Salvation is not LOST.
<<B. Corinth7: A parable is meant to teach....you can't apply everything that says LOSS..lol or unforgiveness to "loosing salvation".....this is a parable...
A: So what is the parable trying to tell us then? And why do you exclude the option that the direct teaching of the parable must be wrong? Because it contradicts a certain doctrine you don't want let go of?
<<Corinth7 "Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place."
A: The full context shows that Paul is talking, so we can guess who "us" is here. Naturally Paul can have this confidence since he knows he is in the vine, and he knows the promises for those who are IN Jesus.
" 12Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, 13I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia. 14But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. "
/AnnYEC
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John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/21/2010 1:33:33 PM
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32k
Posts: 49
Joined: 7/20/2010
Status: offline
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Hello Forum Members.
I was reading Psalm 51 and I was wondering if it says that I can lose my salvation.
Point of interest: Verse 11
"Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me."- (ESV)
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/21/2010 1:40:18 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 32k
Hello Forum Members.
I was reading Psalm 51 and I was wondering if it says that I can lose my salvation.
Point of interest: Verse 11
"Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me."- (ESV)
That, based on earlier verses in the chapter, seems more the psalmist's angst over his sin and deserved punishment than a doctrinal statement. The same psalmist wrote that there is no place he could go that God wasn't present.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/21/2010 1:45:02 PM
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32k
Posts: 49
Joined: 7/20/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: 32k
Hello Forum Members.
I was reading Psalm 51 and I was wondering if it says that I can lose my salvation.
Point of interest: Verse 11
"Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me."- (ESV)
That, based on earlier verses in the chapter, seems more the psalmist's angst over his sin and deserved punishment than a doctrinal statement. The same psalmist wrote that there is no place he could go that God wasn't present.
Oh ok thanks. And yes I remeber that Psalm 139 speaks of not being able to escape his presence. Kinda forgot.
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 10:33:34 AM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 32k
Hello Forum Members.
I was reading Psalm 51 and I was wondering if it says that I can lose my salvation.
Point of interest: Verse 11
"Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me."- (ESV)
I haven't read it..but
Understand the difference between the Old Covenant-and New
in the New Testament a Christian is SEALED with the holy spirit
In the Old testament the holy spirit did depart- and then sacrafices were made for sins
This is why it is important to believe the basic foundation the Gospel, because if you sin Jesus has already made the sacrifice and you can be sure he forgives of sin, because he lives forever to intercede for us on our behalf.
< Message edited by Corinth7 -- 7/22/2010 10:43:56 AM >
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 10:39:38 AM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
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<<B:Corinth7- Remaining in him...means to remain in his word ..for without The Word there is no forgiveness of sin......
A: Read again in John 15 and you will see that we are talking remaining in JESUS. He does say "remain in ME". It further shows that a person can first be IN Jesus but, but might not remain in that position, because Jesus says that the branch can be cut off and thrown into the fire and burned. It will "wither", and the branch can't wither unless it had life to start with.
<<B: Corinth7: -- A Person cannot have the HOLY SPIRIT and LOSE THE HOLY SPIRIT AT the SAME time.........---
A: A person can first have the holy spirit and then lose it. This is for instance what happened to Saul when the spirit of God departed from him and he got another spirit. That was his own fault. Na
C. Corinth7
Was Saul under the New Covenant- Does the Scripture say Saul was Sealed with the Holy Spirit as we are today?
<<B: Corinth7: 1co 6;11 Some of you once lived this way. 8 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ 9 and by the Spirit of our God.
A: Right, but justified/sanctified doesn't mean the person has a secure spot in heaven. They can still pull away from God.
C. Corinth7
Maybe it doesn’t mean that to you- If you believe in someway you can pull away from the Holy Spirit in whom you are sealed with- then that is your prerogative. I believe when one is truly born again of the incorruptible seed that this seed remains as the scripture says.
<<1 co 1:2 to the church of God that is in Corinth, 3 to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.
A: Same thing here. Sanctified doesn't mean the person has a secure spot in heaven. A person can be labelled saved, born again, sealed, sanctified, justified, etc, but still later walk away from God and lose his salvation. We are only saved and secure as long as we abide in Jesus. If we no longer bear the right fruit, we will be cut off and that is a promise.
Corinth7
I believe you misunderstand the scriptures in some ways, however first lets look at this passage:
“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
So if God has Justified you then he has also glorified you….which for me means I’m saved (end of story)
And I know this question is coming first so let me ask it for you… “Well Corinth does that mean I can sin and do what ever I want and still be save”
And I will say what does Romans 6;1 say: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”
This is not meant to offend, but it is something you need to think about when you apply scriptures:
Keep the Old testament scriptures with the old Covenant and use them as a way to persevere in the faith.
While : “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness” (2 Tim. 3:16)” However
Not every scriptures are applicable to all-but to the people it was intended for.
<<For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
A: Right, but you still have to look in the rest of the Bible to see if there are other requirements. For instance we can read "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 7:21)
Corinth7 I for one do not believe scripture contradicts itself, I believe that if one continues to study the word they will come to understanding. I believe what the bible says in Context- I’m not going to go through everything you have written because as you grow in the word you will come to understanding for yourself. It would be like me looking up everything in context and then explaining it. And that has to be your job that you learn from.
This seems to contradict your verse at first glance, but we can combine the two instead. Yes, we are saved if we call on him, but then we must call on him from a true heart and repent for our sins, and we must naturally bear the fruit to go with it. There are many verses to this effect and they must not be ignored.
Corinth 7 Well Grab those verses- I will only heed to scripture and not someone’s own knowledge and understanding. These scripture say how we are saved: I will not add to them my point of view.
General Scriptures Concerning Salvation

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Matthew 19:24-26 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved ? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved
John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. <[> John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved,
Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved
Romans 5:9-10 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Corinth7
Now since you mentioned Matthew 7;21 I will look it up..in context…since you seem to believe that scripture contradict themselves:
7:15 “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 20 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered 21 from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? 22 7:17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad 23 tree bears bad fruit. 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 7:20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.
Judgment of Pretenders
7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ 24 will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 7:22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do 25 many powerful deeds?’ 7:23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ 26
So as seen in the previous verses, they are speaking about FALSE PROPHETS-
Now what is the will of the father in heaven? So there is no contradiction, because not all who stand before him were believers, even though they used his name.
In Christ 1 we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, 2 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: phil 1;6
Romans 8:28–30 (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many
As the saying many are called but few are chosen- The man came to the wedding but he didn’t have the proper clothing- which to me symbolizes that he had to put on Christ.
(Have Faith)
This is enough for now! (smile)
< Message edited by Corinth7 -- 7/22/2010 10:45:48 AM >
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 10:57:51 AM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 32k
Hello Forum Members.
I was reading Psalm 51 and I was wondering if it says that I can lose my salvation.
Point of interest: Verse 11
"Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me."- (ESV)
<<Corinth wrote:In the New Testament a Christian is SEALED with the holy spirit
A: And sealed with the Holy Spirit means that we are MARKED with the holy spirit. A seal isn't unbreakable.
<<Corinth: This is why it is important to believe the basic foundation the Gospel, because if you sin Jesus has already made the sacrifice and you can be sure he forgives of sin, because he lives forever to intercede for us on our behalf.
A: That is again a "license to sin" gospel or "security in sin". You're teaching that a christian can go out and commit hideous sins and still be saved. You cannot say "But a true christian wouldn't commit hideous sins" becuase I keep telling you that King David, a man of God's own heart, committed both adultery and murder, and there are numerous true christians who have fallen away and lost their salvation.
_____________________________
John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 11:41:44 AM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
Status: offline
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<<B: Corinth7- --I gave them to help you understand the difference between Justification and sanctification
A: Right, but since we are discussing OSAS, I can only say that a person can be lost even if he is both justified and sanctified.
Corinth7.…………..
You can say what you want: But scripture says God Glorified the one he Sanctified: And I will stick with that scripture
<<B. Corinth7We sin everyday by our thoughts, ways, and actions...we sin by omission, and comission. And I don't believe a Christian.....by the very term in his MIND will Train it towards sin.
A. We do not sin every day and this is a dangerous teaching.
Corinth7 …………….
Scriptures in the Bible are not dangerous teachings, it is you who believe you can work for your Salvation that is a Dangerous TEACHING. And AGAIN we my friend do not work for SALVATION; We Work from Salvation
Don’t try to grasp at straws…For rather I use the term “everyday” instead of “a lot” is not a teaching it is to show how much we sin and following what I said shows what I meant. So even then your heart is not right…so u have sinned, knowing my intention…lol and vowing to try to discredit me with simplicity:
This comes from: http://www.aconqueringfaith.net/2007/01/sins-of-omission-and-commission.html
“There are many specific ways of sinning. These all fall generally under two ways; the sins of commission and the sins of omission. All sins fall under one or the other.
The first, sins of commission, is a category of sin describing the things we did and shouldn't have. I committed (commission) a sin when I lied and I shouldn't have.
The second, sins of omission, are the category that encompasses the sins of not doing what we should have. We don't think as much about the sin of omission even though it is as pernicious and destructive as anything we could commit. I should have testified because I knew he was innocent, but I didn't out of fear. When we know the right thing to do and don't, that's a sin. “
If that were so, then it's tempting for christians to continue in sin, or commit new tempting sins, and they wouldn't have a motivation to let go of addictions.
Corinth7.………..
YOU are tempted by your own desires, that drag you off and trap you, it is desires that make you sin, and when sin is finished with you it leaves you DEAD.
This is exactly what Satan would like to achieve. He would like us to believe we MUST sin daily,, and if we believe him we're risking to not even feel bad about our sins, and then we might not even repent. If we don't we are hell bound, which is exactly what Satan is aiming for. The Bible however says the opposite. We CAN live holy and pure!
Corinth7.……….
You give to much credit to Satan…lol I agree with one thing you said: “We Can live holy and pure!” However….it is only through Christ that we can do this…..
And let me add………we do not live holy lives because we gain salvation by it; WE live holy lives because we have salvation and are called to live holy lives based on our salvation.
"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Pet 5:8,9)
"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Gal. 5:16)
Corinth7.…….
And these are excellent scriptures, but understand their message in context, and leave them in the context they belong……..
<<Corinth7... is that all you are saying is forgiven? Because if so...then what are you striving for?
Please Post a Scripture that says ONLY are past sins are forgiven?
A: I posted a scripture where it says our PAST sins are forgiven. Can you post a scripture where it says also our FUTURE sins are forgiven at the point of being born again?
Corinth7.…….
Sadly to say…..if you believe only your past sins are forgiven….then how will your future sins be forgiven……….are you saying you haven’t sinned anymore since you became born again?
Let me quote AGAIN what I have already left and ADD some for you? And then I will not say no more…………..Instead of trying to take a position……..you need to get an understanding of what you believe. 1 John 1;9 he cleanses us from All unrighteousness.
1John 2;1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Hebrews 7:24-25 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them
If not, I feel my verse still stands.
Corinth7.……..
Then if you only use that verse…then only your past sins will be forgiven…..and you have no way to press on toward the mark…..so you sell your own self short…Most of what you have said I have already replied to…if you choose to use it and get an understanding that is up to you, and if you choose to reject it…it is up to you. But what ever you do and say, for now on……..remember your motive in it all…..For everything we do should be to Glorify God. The Basic theme in all of this is
WE are not SAVED by OUR OWN WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, WE were SAVED when WE BELIEVED, And we do Good Work BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED. So when you view scriptures in light of this; then you can see. And Lies will not be told on people who stand for truth (OSAS). But if you continue to hold a view that is not valid then how can you see? For example: In Geomtry you have postulate to figure out a problem. But if you use the wrong postulates you will always come to a wrong answer. In the same way unless one understand Grace and how we are saved NOT BY our works, but by Christ's works...to do good works...then they will never grasp OSAS. We can't grow without forgiveness of sin. And if someone tells you that God only forgave your sins ONCE when you Believed they are in ERR of the truth and do not understand the scriptures. I'm speaking to those who are reading along in this thread.
May God bless Ya…..and may we all grow in Grace……….
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 11:48:38 AM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
Status: offline
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Corinth07
<<Was Saul under the New Covenant- Does the Scripture say Saul was Sealed with the Holy Spirit as we are today?
A: 1 Sam 16:14 "Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him." It does not say it was something different about the spirit of God (and there aren't many different Holy Spirits) in this situation. It only shows that the holy spirit can first be in a person and then depart.
<<Maybe it doesn’t mean that to you- If you believe in someway you can pull away from the Holy Spirit in whom you are sealed with- then that is your prerogative. I believe when one is truly born again of the incorruptible seed that this seed remains as the scripture says.
A: I have showed you many verses where it's clear that a christian can be in the vine and still be broken off. It's better to accept a Biblical teaching than following a church doctrine.
"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Rom 11:19-23)
<<So if God has Justified you then he has also glorified you….which for me means I’m saved (end of story)
A: All who are glorified have once been justified. All who are justified are not always glorified. End of story.
<<And I will say what does Romans 6;1 say: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”
A: Yes, but the point is that you feel we should cease sinning due to the risk of losing REWARDS, and not due to that our SOULS are at risk. This is a dangerous teaching and weak people who listen to you make say "phew" and continue in their addiction, thinking that they will still get to heaven, albeit with less rewards. The first OSAS teaching came from Satan when he told Eve that she would not die if they ate of the forbidden fruit. He lied. She died.
<<Corinth7 -- I believe what the bible says in Context- I’m not going to go through everything you have written because as you grow in the word you will come to understanding for yourself. It would be like me looking up everything in context and then explaining it. And that has to be your job that you learn from.
A: I have corrected my understanding of the Bible in the past thanks to people who have showed me from scriptures that I'm in error. I believe OSAS is an idea that started in churches instead of something that you can find in the Bible, and due to the popularity (it's always popular to hear we can sin without risking our lives for it) it's very hard to let go of this type of teaching. I pray that you will ponder about the verses I've provided and let the Bible correct you instead of teachings that are popular atm.
<<Corinth 7 Well Grab those verses- I will only heed to scripture and not someone’s own knowledge and understanding. These scripture say how we are saved: I will not add to them my point of view. ---
A: I'm very familiar with what the Bible says about salvation, so copying and pasting those verses didn't enlighten me since you didn't have a point to go with it. None of those verses contradict my claim that faith without deeds is dead, which the Bible ALSO says. Do you just ignore verses which you feel don't apply?
<<Corinth7 Now since you mentioned Matthew 7;21 I will look it up..in context…since you seem to believe that scripture contradict themselves:
A: WHERE have I ever suggested that the Bible contradicts itself? I just gave you a remark that "at the first glance the Bible seems to contradict itself BUT...we can COMBINE the verses" and the contradictions disappear, because there are no contradictions in the Bible. If you twist the words in the Bible the way you twist my words, I can understand why you end up in situations where you seem to want to ignore verses which are uncomfortable. Like the verse "faith without deeds is dead". Or the claim that grace means we can say NO to sin in this day and age.
<<So as seen in the previous verses, they are speaking about FALSE PROPHETS-
A: Of course there are false prophets around, and we can read that we can know them "BY THEIR FRUIT". A true christian obeys Jesus and we can read above that ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER will enter heaven. What happens if a true christian turn around and live in the world? Then he has lost his salvation. Your version says "Lawbreakers" but another version says "evildoers", and the case could very well be that they had been evildoers ALL THE TIME. Jesus says after all that he never knew them.
<<In Christ 1 we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, 2 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
A: We are not predestined to BELIEVE in him, but believers are predestined to enter the kingdom. As believers we are God's possession. God also knew from the beginning who the believers would be. They are the elect.
<<Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: phil 1;6
A: You're going to try with all the favourite verses by calvinists, aren't you? :D
Paul is addressing a church which had supported Paul in prayers and probably also financially. Paul is also confident their work will continue to produce good fruit to the end due to his own prayers for them. This is not talking about individuals being elected to either salvation or good works. We have to make sure to submit to the holy spirit ourselves in order to produce fruit. God isn't doing it for us.
See the full context:
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. 7It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. 8God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, 11filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.
<<Romans 8:28–30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many
A: For those WHO LOVE GOD things work together for good. That is always the same old condition for salvation. Note that foreknowledge is involved to conclude who the believers would be. 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"
<<As the saying many are called but few are chosen- The man came to the wedding but he didn’t have the proper clothing- which to me symbolizes that he had to put on Christ.
A: Remember that those who accepted the invitation (the first ones who were invited declined to come) were all called....CHOSEN due to having say yes.
/AnnYEC
_____________________________
John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 11:59:48 AM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnnYEC
quote:
ORIGINAL: 32k
Hello Forum Members.
I was reading Psalm 51 and I was wondering if it says that I can lose my salvation.
Point of interest: Verse 11
"Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me."- (ESV)
<<Corinth wrote:In the New Testament a Christian is SEALED with the holy spirit
A: And sealed with the Holy Spirit means that we are MARKED with the holy spirit. A seal isn't unbreakable.
<<Corinth: This is why it is important to believe the basic foundation the Gospel, because if you sin Jesus has already made the sacrifice and you can be sure he forgives of sin, because he lives forever to intercede for us on our behalf.
A: That is again a "license to sin" gospel or "security in sin". You're teaching that a christian can go out and commit hideous sins and still be saved. You cannot say "But a true christian wouldn't commit hideous sins" becuase I keep telling you that King David, a man of God's own heart, committed both adultery and murder, and there are numerous true christians who have fallen away and lost their salvation.
Sorry Salvation is not a license to sin..........God saved us...to live unto him...a person who is saves shouldn't be thinking how he should live to sin...........that goes contrary to Salvation....
And Seal....doesn't only mean Mark....We have the HOLY SPIRIT WHO LIVES IN US>>>WHO WEARE SEALED WITH....that is why the holy spirit can be grieved...it lives in us.....even when we sin. And without being sealed....as this is God promise to us.......we couldn't ask for forgiveness..this is how God keeps those who are his...he has given us his holy spirit....
sphragizo <4972>
sfragizw sphragizo
Pronunciation: sfrag-id'-zo
Origin: from 4973
Reference: TDNT - 7:939,1127
PrtSpch: v
In Greek: esfragisen 3, esfragismenoi 3, esfragismenwn 1, esfragisyhte 2, sfragisamenov 2, sfragisantev 1, sfragishv 1, sfragison 1, sfragiswmen 1
In NET: sealed 3, were sealed 2, has confirmed clearly 1, by sealing 1, Do seal up 1, has put seal 1, Seal up 1, have safely delivered 1, were marked 1, we have put a seal 1, you were sealed 1, you were marked with the seal 1
In AV: seal 22, set to (one's) seal 1, stop 1, seal up 1, set a seal 1, vr seal 1
Count: 27
Definition: 1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
1a) for security: from Satan
1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a
letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
1c) in order to mark a person or a thing
1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God
1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
1d1a) of a written document
1d1b) to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what
he professes to be
And I believe the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SEAL ITSELF............
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 12:24:29 PM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
Status: offline
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Ephesians 1:13-14: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”
There is NO WAY AROUND THE SCRIPTURE....
ONCE SAVED YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED.
And Once SAVED Always saves is just what it says in Ephesians 1;13-14
And that passage is not saying anything about a license to sin. read it and see....
Even when we look at it this way....there is not change:
is it not the HOLY SPIRIT THAT MARKS WHO WE ARE. YOU EITHER HAVE IT...OR YOU DON't.......and if you don't......................then you are not his.....
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his Romans 8;9
< Message edited by Corinth7 -- 7/22/2010 12:34:09 PM >
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 12:34:03 PM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
Status: offline
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Corinth07
<<Scriptures in the Bible are not dangerous teachings, it is you who believe you can work for your Salvation that is a Dangerous TEACHING.
A: Corinth, you know very well I don't believe we can work for our salvation. I know it's a common teaching among calvinists to claim that this is what free-willers must believe, but it's false so try to tear down this strawman if you can. This is what I beleive:
"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:26)
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24) "
<< And AGAIN we my friend do not work for SALVATION; We Work from Salvation
A: "Wherefore we LABOUR, that, whether present or absent, we MAY BE ACCEPTEDof Him." 2nd Cor 5:9
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your SOUL."
"Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” (John 14:23)
<<Don’t try to grasp at straws…For rather I use the term “everyday” instead of “a lot” is not a teaching it is to show how much we sin and following what I said shows what I meant. So even then your heart is not right…so u have sinned, knowing my intention…lol and vowing to try to discredit me with simplicity:
A: Ok, so christians sin "a lot" and not every day? How many sins can a christian commit before we can conclude that he/she "wasn't saved to begin with"?
Why do you think Jesus told us to cut off body parts if they make us sin, if he knows we sin "a lot" and can't stop sinning?
<<“There are many specific ways of sinning. These all fall generally under two ways; the sins of commission and the sins of omission. All sins fall under one or the other.
A: Calvinism is famous for using fancy words, terms that are not in the Bible and to complicate things. It's better you show me where in the Bible sins are filed under these 2 categories. I feel what I just read from your source was just an attempt to give excuses for why we must sin. Satan would love it.
<<YOU are tempted by your own desires, that drag you off and trap you, it is desires that make you sin, and when sin is finished with you it leaves you DEAD.
A: We can unfortunately also tempt people (even more) into sinning. "If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating DESTROY your brother FOR WHOM CHRIST DIED." So here we can read that Christ could die for a person and yet this person can still be DESTROYED (eventhough Christ died for him) due to our behaviour.
<<You give to much credit to Satan…lol I agree with one thing you said: “We Can live holy and pure!” However….it is only through Christ that we can do this…..
A: If we wouldn't be able to lose our salvation, Satan wouldn't even bother to go after us. We can live holy if we abide in Christ, and only WE can do that. God doesn't do it for us. If God made it for us, we could blame him each time we lost grip.
<<And let me add………we do not live holy lives because we gain salvation by it; WE live holy lives because we have salvation and are called to live holy lives based on our salvation.
A: 1) Again, I've never claimed that we can be saved by doing works. 2) Not all christians live holy as I have showed you numerous times.
<<AnnYEC: "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Pet 5:8,9)
"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Gal. 5:16)
<<And these are excellent scriptures, but understand their message in context, and leave them in the context they belong……..
A: How are those claims changed in a broader context? We are told we CAN resist the devil. We are told we will NOT gratify the desires of our sinful nature if we live by the spirit. Are you saying this isn't true? Are you saying we must fall, despite of those claims?
<<Sadly to say…..if you believe only your past sins are forgiven….then how will your future sins be forgiven……….
A: I've already explained this for you. Jesus died once for all, for all people and for all sins, and he doesn't have to die each time a person commits a new sin. This doesn't mean our future sins are automatically forgiven though. Also our future sins are died for but they are not yet forgiven. FAITH is always the requirement, and the Biblical truth that "faith without deeds is dead" applies as well. We are told to repent and believe in him. If we continue to sin and don't repent, then we are being disobedient and sinners, and we are no longer saved. If a person is a true christians and he ends up in adultery and lies, then we know he has lost his salvation. "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Rev 21:27) Wouldn't you say the prodigal son was impure when he slept around with prostitutes? Are you saying he could still enter heaven if he died in that condition?
<<are you saying you haven’t sinned anymore since you became born again?
A: No sadly I personally have sinned numerous times since I was born again. It's true that I too have been affected by false teachers who persuade me that I simply cannot stop sinning, but I can't use them as an excuse when I stand before the Father. At least I understand the truth now - that we can resist the devil.
<<1 John 1;9 he cleanses us from All unrighteousness.
A: Yes of course he does. When we are born again he doesn't cleanse us from SOME unrighteousness. But naturally only the sins we have committed in our past, because we can't repent for future sins which we haven't committed yet.
<<1John 2;1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
A: I feel you are repeating yourself now Corinth. I've already addressed some of these verses. Yes of course we have an advocate with the Father. We can come to him and ask for forgiveness and he will cleanse us.
<<Hebrews 7:24-25 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them
A: Yes of course he can completely save those who COME to God through him. He doesn't save us "a little bit". We must of course still repent and be holy though.
<<Then if you only use that verse…then only your past sins will be forgiven…..and you have no way to press on toward the mark…..so you sell your own self short…Most of what you have said I have already replied to…if you choose to use it and get an understanding that is up to you, and if you choose to reject it…it is up to you. But what ever you do and say, for now on……..remember your motive in it all…..--
A: I'm not sure what you mean with that I' not able to press on towards the mark. It's good news that we no longer have to be slaves to sin but to righteousness. We can live holy and blameless!
<<WE are not SAVED by OUR OWN WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
A: Corinth. Repeat after me: "Free will believers do NOT believe a person can be saved due to works or good deeds".
<<And Lies will not be told on people who stand for truth (OSAS).
A: If OSAS is the truth, why is there no support for it in scriptures, and why can we read about people who have lost their faith for good or temporarily, like Solomon, Saul, Demas, King David, Simon, the prodigal son, Hymenaus and, Philip etc? Why all those numerous warnings addressed to christians that they can shipwreck their faith and believe in vain?
<<For example: In Geomtry you have postulate to figure out a problem. But if you use the wrong postulates you will always come to a wrong answer.
A: Yes, so it's better we let the Bible correct us instead of church doctrines.
<<In the same way unless one understand Grace and how we are saved NOT BY our works, but by Christ's works...to do good works...then they will never grasp OSAS.
A: I've already explained to you (by using scriptures) that the grace of God that brings salvation is the ability to say NO to sins. That was from Titus. Surprisingly you said "no" to Titus and provided me with an explanation for the word "grace" outside of the Bible. It's better we let the Bible explain the Bible.
And can we now settle once for all that free willers do not believe we are saved by works? If you continue with that claim it borders to slander.
/AnnYEC
_____________________________
John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 12:37:00 PM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
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quote:
Ephesians 1:13-14: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”
There is NO WAY AROUND THE SCRIPTURE....
ONCE SAVED YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED.
And Once SAVED Always saves is just what it says in Ephesians 1;13-14
And that passage is not saying anything about a license to sin. read it and see....
Even when we look at it this way....there is not change:
is it not the HOLY SPIRIT THAT MARKS WHO WE ARE. YOU EITHER HAVE IT...OR YOU DON't.......and if you don't......................then you are not his.....
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his Romans 8;9
< Message edited by Corinth7 -- 7/22/2010 12:34:09 PM >
People who say OSAS is a license to sin..........ARE those who do no understand the GRACE of God
Scriptures teach it................not the person who believe what the scriptures say.
Just because their own understanding and emotions get in the way....never will stop scriptures from meaning what they say.
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 12:41:24 PM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
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This 14 is the conquering power 15 that has conquered 16 the world: our faith. 5:5 Now who is the person who has conquered the world except the one who believes that 17 Jesus is the Son of God? 5:6 Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood – not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because 18 the Spirit is the truth. 5:7 For 19 there are three that testify, 20 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.
5:9 If we accept the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, because 21 this 22 is the testimony of God that 23 he has testified concerning his Son. 5:10 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) 24 5:11 And this is the testimony: God 25 has given us eternal life, 26 and this life is in his Son. 5:12 The one who has the Son 27 has this 28 eternal 29 life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this 30 eternal 31 life.
Assurance of Eternal Life
5:13 I have written these things 32 to you who believe 33 in the name of the Son of God so that 34 you may know that you have eternal life.
We should be secure in our Salvation- because this is where our confidence and joy comes from. Don't let no ONE STEAL YOUR JOY!
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 12:52:47 PM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
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Corinth07
<<Sorry Salvation is not a license to sin..........
A: Was King David still saved while he committed adultery and murder?
Was the prodigal son still saved while sleeping around with prostitutes?
If "yes" then you are teaching that murderers, adulterers and idolators can enter heaven. If that isn't a "license to sin", I don't know what is.
<<God saved us...to live unto him...a person who is saves shouldn't be thinking how he should live to sin...........that goes contrary to Salvation....
A: Well, King David thought in a sinful manner for about a year when he lived in adultery. King David is scriptures. Hezekiel 18:24 is also scriptures, and that prophets said: "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
<<And Seal....doesn't only mean Mark....We have the HOLY SPIRIT WHO LIVES IN US>>>WHO WEARE SEALED WITH
A: Yes, so exactly what I'm saying. The holy spirit is our mark and what differentiates us from non believers who do not have this mark. Nowhere can we read that a seal cannot be broken.
<<....that is why the holy spirit can be grieved...it lives in us.....even when we sin. And without being sealed....as this is God promise to us.......we couldn't ask for forgiveness..---
A: Well, I didn't have the holy spirit the moment I stepped in front of the Lord and asked for forgiveness. He provided me with the holy spirit AFTER I repented and asked for forgiveness.
<<sphragizo <4972>
were marked --- you were marked with the seal 1
A: Yes, I've been saying "mark" all the time. I didn't make it up.
<<Definition: 1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal---
A: Nothing in that contradicts what I'm saying. (Definitions are of course made by people but the Greek origin is of course trustworthy.)
Btw, the stone before Jesus grave was "sealed" (the same Greek word was used) but the stone was still removed.
<<And I believe the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SEAL ITSELF............
A: That's what I believe as well. I don't believe a seal is unbreakable though. Kings and leaders used seals in the old age, and never did they use their seals to "lock" something, but only to give their individual marks on things. For instance letters (which can be opened.)
<<Ephesians 1:13-14: ---
A: Yes, I know your favourite verse by now, but did you study on the link I provided about this? I only wonder since you claim there is no way around that verse (your interpretation of it that is). If you will continue to claim this, perhaps you would want to give the other side a chance to tell you how they interpret the same verse? If I have time I can copy and paste from that site, to show you the words in original Greek, etc.
<<And Once SAVED Always saves is just what it says in Ephesians 1;13-14
A: It doesn't say that. "Once saved always saved" must be one of the most popular Bible teachings which isn't Biblical :)
<<And that passage is not saying anything about a license to sin. read it and see....
A: No of course that passage or any passage in the Bible, will teach us a license to sin. So contrary to your teaching.
/AnnYEC
_____________________________
John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 1:04:14 PM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
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Corinth07,
<<People who say OSAS is a license to sin..........ARE those who do no understand the GRACE of God
A: I repeat the grace of God:
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say No to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age" (Titus 2:11,12)
"See to it that no one MISSES the GRACE of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many." (Heb 12:15)
<<Now who is the person who has conquered the world except the one who believes that 17 Jesus is the Son of God?
A: Jesus Christ conquered the world. He told us the clear condition for salvation as well:
"He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and PUT IT INTO PRACTICE.”" (Luke 8:21)
<<The one who has the Son 27 has this 28 eternal 29 life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this 30 eternal 31 life.
A: Yes, the one ho HAS THE SON has eternal life. I've been saying this all along. If we abide in the vine, we HAVE the son. But what if we no longer have the son? If we don't bear the right fruit, we are cut off. Jesus said it!
<<<5:13 I have written these things 32 to you who believe 33 in the name of the Son of God so that 34 you may know that you have eternal life.
A: Yes, and I for instance KNOW I have eternal life today, because I'm in the vine. If I no longer abide in the vine, I'm no longer secure. The holy spirit can help me to stay in Jesus, but only if I abide in him.
<<We should be secure in our Salvation- because this is where our confidence and joy comes from. Don't let no ONE STEAL YOUR JOY!
A: I am totally secure in my salvation, I'm filled with joy and I have never worried about losing my salvation. I know that I'm totally safe as long as I'm in the vine.
Try to remove the strawman argument you have, in believing non OSAS are worried or not filled with joy.
/AnnYEC
_____________________________
John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 1:07:26 PM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corinth7
This 14 is the conquering power 15 that has conquered 16 the world: our faith. 5:5 Now who is the person who has conquered the world except the one who believes that 17 Jesus is the Son of God? 5:6 Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood – not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because 18 the Spirit is the truth. 5:7 For 19 there are three that testify, 20 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.
5:9 If we accept the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, because 21 this 22 is the testimony of God that 23 he has testified concerning his Son. 5:10 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) 24 5:11 And this is the testimony: God 25 has given us eternal life, 26 and this life is in his Son. 5:12 The one who has the Son 27 has this 28 eternal 29 life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this 30 eternal 31 life.
Assurance of Eternal Life
5:13 I have written these things 32 to you who believe 33 in the name of the Son of God so that 34 you may know that you have eternal life.
We should be secure in our Salvation- because this is where our confidence and joy comes from. Don't let no ONE STEAL YOUR JOY!
Meditate-on this
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 1:48:20 PM
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Corinth7
Posts: 1464
Joined: 7/5/2010
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The way I see it..............is those who do not Believe that once you are SAVED you are Always saved
Also are those who try to keep themselves SAVED
Which then confuses a new born Christian-
We were SAVED to live onto God in Righteousness.......
And now they are saying they can help God keep themselves SAVED?
1 Peter 1:5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy [b]has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
It is Grace through Faith that SAVES...........NOT Grace through our works/or works under the law
While they say..the scripture : Ephesians Teaches one they have the license to sin..they are incorrect. That scripture never mentions...anything such..that is a LIE
and that scripture is a OSAS scripture
God has already SAVED us................If a person could of saved themselves....then those under the Law would have proved it.
But what those under the law did was prove the opposite. And what prove is they needed a SAVIOR....
Once God SAVES YOU........he is able to save you completely
But God wants us to walk in Salvation - for the spirit(attitude) of salvation should produce some works of righteousness
And those who FEAR PUNISHMENT are those who have not been perfected in LOVE- They do not understand completely the GRACE of God
WE MUST MATURE IN OUR FAITH! For understanding will give you confidence- a lack of understanding thereof... unsettles your faith. without confidence in God's Grace-its difficult to do the work of God..........With Confidence- you not only know why you doing the work of God- There is joy in serving him when you understand his LOVE
You are either SAVED or NOT SAVED.............there is no in-between
Grace or Works it's one or the other, but not both
The challenge is understanding
the Old Covenant
Those who tried to work for Salvation
and the New Covenant
Those who work because they have Salvation
Having Salvation, and Knowing you have Salvation is one difference between your Salvation on EARTH (how you overcome this world)
Now watch this:
Here is a 400 race on the track field, it begins with being on the Mark(Start) and ending at the finish line
Start ___________________________Finish(righteousness)
That is the old Covenant Run, but those who were under it could not make it to the finish line (righteousness)
Now here is the new covenant
Start, Finish(righteousness) _________________________
Those of us who believe we have the Start and the finish line (the beginning and the end) and with this security in mind- our works come from Salvation and therefore, there is no boasting in them but through Christ. These works reap REWARDS...
One positive consequence of running in Faith is you will KNOW YOU ARE SAVED..which gives us confidence
It is also not knowing that lets you know that you are not acting out the call of your faith, which breeds no security of Salvation. While this may not mean you are not saved Eternally, a lack of confidence doesn't offer any joy of your salvation. It is confidence in our security that allow us.to continue in faith.
I hope this has helped some.....if you live your life......walking in faith..then you can see what I am saying for yourself....
< Message edited by Corinth7 -- 7/22/2010 2:00:27 PM >
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 2:31:48 PM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
Status: offline
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Corinth07
<<The way I see it..............is those who do not Believe that once you are SAVED you are Always saved Also are those who try to keep themselves SAVED
A: You mean...if I believe that I can lose my salvation (and believing that faith without deeds is dead) then I risk filling my days with doing lots of good works...! For nothing! How horrible! :D Seriously, I don't believe in OSAS and I believe we are saved through FAITH but only combined with deeds since the Bible says that faith without deeds is dead. It's nothing wrong with being Biblical.
<<We were SAVED to live onto God in Righteousness.......
A: God doesn't do the faith for us, neither the good deeds. If he was responsible for our good deeds, we could blame him each time we fell into sin.
<<And now they are saying they can help God keep themselves SAVED?
A: I'm not saying we can keep ourselves saved by doing good works, but we must submit to the holy spirit so He can enable us to do good works. God won't submit to the holy spirit for us.
<< --That scripture never mentions...anything such..that is a LIE and that scripture is a OSAS scripture
A: Sorry, I don't understand.
<<God has already SAVED us................
A: That would be good news for those christians who can't let go of addictions and sins. If they believed your teaching, they might feel more comfortable drinking, or performing homosexuality, or idolatry, knowing that nothing they did could ever make them lose their salvation. Again, dangerous teaching!
<<If a person could of saved themselves....then those under the Law would have proved it.
A: That's why we don't teach that people can save themselves. Did you forget to repeat the line I spelled out for you? Repeat this to yourself a few times: "Free will believers do not believe a person can be saved by doing good deeds. They do not believe people can save themselves. This is just a strawman argument from those who do not believe in free will."
<<Once God SAVES YOU........he is able to save you completely
A: He is able to save us, and he could make us all 100% sinfree if he so desired. But this isn't what he desired. Jesus died for our sins, but he set up a condition. FAITH! If we have faith we love him, if we love him we obey him.
<<And those who FEAR PUNISHMENT are those who have not been perfected in LOVE-
A: We are actually supposed to FEAR God, and we are told to work out our own salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. However, I don't fear punishment as long as I know I remain in the vine. I have great respect for God though since he will be our judge.
<<They do not understand completely the GRACE of God
A: It doesn't sound like you're sure of it either since you first told me "no" to the verse about grace I told you from Titus. I'm afraid you change the true grace of God into a license to sin.
<<You are either SAVED or NOT SAVED.............there is no in-between
A Very true. But note that the saved person can become an unsaved person and vice versa.
<<Grace or Works it's one or the other, but not both
A: So it's wrong to teach what the Bible teaches when it says "You see that a person is justified by what he DOES and NOT by faith ALONE." (James 2:24)
<<That is the old Covenant Run, but those who were under it could not make it to the finish line (righteousness)
A: Well they could, due to the animal sacrifice system.
<<Now here is the new covenant Start, Finish(righteousness) _________________________
A: And after the declaration of being rightous you can sin, sin and sin and still remain saved? Murder, adultery, homosexuality. It doesn't really matter? Just less rewards in heaven? Ok I spell it out for you:
"Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."1 Cor. 6:9,10
<<Those of us who believe we have the Start and the finish line (the beginning and the end) and with this security in mind- our works come from Salvation and therefor there is no boasting in them but through Christ. These works reap REWARDS...
A: With that type of talk you could make people feeling guilty for their crime of obeying the 10 commandments. They wouldn't want to boast...
<<One reward of running in Faith is KNOWING YOUR ARE SAVED..which gives us confidence
A: Jesus disagrees with you. He says neglecting to bear the right fruit means that you will be cut off:
"If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and WITHERS; such branches are picked up, THROWN into the FIRE and burned. (John 15:4-6)
<<While this may not mean you are not saved Eternally, a lack of confidence doesn't offer any joy of your salvation. It is confidence in our security that allow us.to continue in faith.
A: This sound like the dangerous teaching MacArthur and others are guilty of. There are sinners who sin with confidence and enjoy life, and some of them even believe they are totally safe. The idea that a person cannot lose his salvation will of course encourage even more people to continue to sin happily, and they risk to harden their hearts when the holy spirit convicts them of sin, because...once saved always saved, right? It's of course impossible to know how many people have been lost due to the OSAS teaching. But there is actually an OSAS teaching in the Bible:
The serpent to Eve: "You will not surely die"
/AnnYEC
_____________________________
John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 2:38:41 PM
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32k
Posts: 49
Joined: 7/20/2010
Status: offline
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The way I view Perseverance of the Saints (aka OSAS) is simply that one cannot lose something that isn't under their control. God is the giver of Faith through Grace [kindness]. Salvation is not an act of man, but of God.
Romans 9:16-18:
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - (ESV)
and also:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
There is something one would have to understand that's very important, lest they think that PotS would entitle one to "sin at will" or have a "liscence to sin". You would have to understand that Salvation is not dependent on what we do, even after we've inherited Salvation. Because we are counted as righteous since Jesus died and rose again. Hebrews 10:14 shows us this:
"For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."- (ESV)
See, we'ved been "PERFECTED", yet we keep moving onward to Sanctification [holiness].
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RE: Uncertainties in Various Security of the Believer B... - 7/22/2010 3:04:14 PM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
Status: offline
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32k,
<<The way I view Perseverance of the Saints (aka OSAS) is simply that one cannot lose something that isn't under their control. God is the giver of Faith through Grace [kindness]. Salvation is not an act of man, but of God.
A. Then we must first make out if we do have some control or not, and the Bible confirms we do. If we are responsible for our actions (sins) we have some control, or else we can blame God for our sins, and that he didn't control us better. "Salvation" is the gift of God. About faith we can read that we have each been given a certain amount of it, and also that we can get faith from hearing the word. God has enabled us to accept/reject him.
<<Romans 9:16-18:
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - (ESV)
A: That passage concerns the comparison with Israel. Some jews thought they would absolutely be saved since God had chosen them, and Paul declares that it's not so. The Israelites were chosen as a body and not necessarily for salvation. We know what is needed for salvation; faith!.God has mercy on who he wants, and he wants to have mercy on those who come to him in faith. The Israelites often disobeyed God, and Pharao worked against God as well.
<<"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
A: Right, FAITH is the requirement. Salvation is the gift of God, and that is for all who believe in him.
<<You would have to understand that Salvation is not dependent on what we do, even after we've inherited Salvation.
A: That is not true. It's very much dependent on what we do. We must believe in him, and bear the right fruit. If not, we will be cut off.
<<Because we are counted as righteous since Jesus died and rose again. Hebrews 10:14 shows us this: "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."- (ESV)
A. Yes, but being sanctified doesn't mean we are absolutely saved. Not if we pull away from Him as in disowning him or commit sins we don't repent for.
<<See, we'ved been "PERFECTED", yet we keep moving onward to Sanctification [holiness].
A: This too would be a license to sin. If we are born again and thus forever declared righteous no matter what we do, then you must ponder what to do with those multiple verses that claim that immoral people cannot enter heaven.
Did you by any chance read anything from the posts that I've just posted today? I feel I'm repeating myself again and again.:)
/AnnYEC
_____________________________
John 1:9 "[Speaking of Jesus] was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
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