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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 11:29:11 AM
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gralan
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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καὶ μὴ λυπεῖτε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ᾧ ἐσφραγίσθητε εἰς ἡμέραν ἀπολυτρώσεως
a careful not hurried reading of this text states plainly that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of our redemption, the day of our deliverance, that future day when we no longer are subject to our mortal flesh.
EPH4.30
Perhaps I misunderstand?
< Message edited by gralan -- 3/9/2010 11:39:45 AM >
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
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The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2010 1:28:32 AM
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gralan
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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Romans 12:3, "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
If faith is not a gift measured out to us by God (EPH2.8):
(1) what scripture tells us how to earn that faith?
(2) what scripture(s) plainly tell us when God is required to give us the faith we earned?
(3) How does God determine how much faith we earned, according to what scripture(s)?
I've heard it said again and again that EPH2.8 does not mean that faith is a gift from God. However, in my reading of the text I see that grace and faith are the gift from God.
You cannot earn grace, and Paul is pretty plain about the difference between faith and works.
If we are spiritually dead prior to being born of God by faith, how are we able to be anything but enslaved to sin and death prior to being born again of God as new creations?
How do spiritually dead beings respond by faith? They certainly cannot have it with them.
I understand if no one wants to talk about this anymore. However if that is the case, how come it keeps being brought up in other threads?
Peace and mercy unto all who walk by the rule of the new creation, unto the Israel of God.
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2010 7:48:12 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
Romans 12:3, "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
If faith is not a gift measured out to us by God (EPH2.8):
(1) what scripture tells us how to earn that faith?
(2) what scripture(s) plainly tell us when God is required to give us the faith we earned?
(3) How does God determine how much faith we earned, according to what scripture(s)? Since faith is not earned the answers are none, none, and He doesn't since faith is not earned.
quote:
I've heard it said again and again that EPH2.8 does not mean that faith is a gift from God. However, in my reading of the text I see that grace and faith are the gift from God. Actually in Ephesians 2:8-9 salvation is the gift and it is given by grace through faith.
quote:
You cannot earn grace, and Paul is pretty plain about the difference between faith and works. This is true.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2010 6:44:28 PM
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gralan
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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Thanks for the reply. I guess the question I still would have then if faith is not a gift of God then on what basis does God measure it out to us? I perceive part of the problem may be using this particular verse (EPH2.8), for the intentional understanding is our salvation by grace through faith.
The Biblical teaching is plain that God gives to each a measure of faith. If that is not earned, then it is a gift. Correct? If it is not earned, and God is not understood to be capricious, then measured faith is given to us so that we might believe and have confidence in God that the finished work of Jesus Christ and His continued advocacy of us is sufficient unto our salvation and full redemption.
Would you consider that to be correct?
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
Romans 12:3, "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
If faith is not a gift measured out to us by God (EPH2.8):
(1) what scripture tells us how to earn that faith?
(2) what scripture(s) plainly tell us when God is required to give us the faith we earned?
(3) How does God determine how much faith we earned, according to what scripture(s)? Since faith is not earned the answers are none, none, and He doesn't since faith is not earned.quote:
I've heard it said again and again that EPH2.8 does not mean that faith is a gift from God. However, in my reading of the text I see that grace and faith are the gift from God. Actually in Ephesians 2:8-9 salvation is the gift and it is given by grace through faith.
quote:
You cannot earn grace, and Paul is pretty plain about the difference between faith and works. This is true.
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/30/2010 4:22:57 AM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 1847
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
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quote:
It may seem easy, but it was a shocker for me to discover that OSAS was not true and even harder for me to give up believing that it was true. But once I did all those warning scripture fit in with the rest of what the Bible teaches a lot better.
John 10:27-30;
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one."
_____________________________
"Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love, let not all the hardship seem little to you that has come upon us...." Nehemiah 9:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2010 10:27:59 AM
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SouthBend
Posts: 253
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
It may seem easy, but it was a shocker for me to discover that OSAS was not true and even harder for me to give up believing that it was true. But once I did all those warning scripture fit in with the rest of what the Bible teaches a lot better.
John 10:27-30;
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one."
I assume, if your not a Calvinist, you beleive babies and small children go to heaven when they die. Then you must beleive at some point, past the age of accountability, that because of sin they will lose this security and need to be born again to regain their salvation.
So it seems you don't really believe in the doctrine of eternal security after all. Without even realizing it you are saying that sin separates us from God 
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud” 2Peter(2:20-22).
So, according to Peter, it is better for a "saved" person never to have known Christ, then to have known Christ and then returned to their sinful ways.
Peace
_____________________________
"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans 110 A.D.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2010 5:24:42 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 1847
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
Status: offline
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quote:
I assume, if your not a Calvinist, you beleive babies and small children go to heaven when they die.
What is it commonly said of those who "assume?"
quote:
Then you must beleive at some point, past the age of accountability, that because of sin they will lose this security and need to be born again to regain their salvation.
So it seems you don't really believe in the doctrine of eternal security after all.
Why is it that you continue to feel the need to to build Strawmen in misrepresenting my position?
Not only is it being dishonest but you are actually building Strawmen against yourself whenever you attempt to discredit a position of any forum member which was made up in your own mind.
Want to know what a fellow forum member believes? Try asking them.
You may save yourself the time and trouble of following the rabbit trails created by your own false dichotomies.
< Message edited by SamsonUSA -- 3/31/2010 6:22:12 PM >
_____________________________
"Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love, let not all the hardship seem little to you that has come upon us...." Nehemiah 9:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/31/2010 11:36:34 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
quote:
Romans 12:3, "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
gralan:
You are taking this Scripture out of context and applying it to saving faith, whereas the context (Rom.12:1-8) is spiritual gifts and is to be compared with 1 Cor. 12:1-11, which speaks of "the gift of faith" (v. 9). So "the measure of faith" is the spiritual gift of faith given in greater or lesser measure to those who are already believers. Some believers have a much stronger and simpler faith than others, and here's the reason why.
quote:
If faith is not a gift measured out to us by God (EPH2.8):
(1) what scripture tells us how to earn that faith?
We do not earn saving faith, but rather it is a product of hearing the Word of God and more particularly the Gospel (Rom. 10:17). Since God desires every creature to hear the Gospel (Mk. 16:15,16) God desires every sinner to have saving faith, which is really quite simple -- believing with all our heart that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification.
quote:
(2) what scripture(s) plainly tell us when God is required to give us the faith we earned?
None
quote:
(3) How does God determine how much faith we earned, according to what scripture(s)?
Nobody earns faith so this is moot.
quote:
I've heard it said again and again that EPH2.8 does not mean that faith is a gift from God. However, in my reading of the text I see that grace and faith are the gift from God.
How about salvation as a gift of God? How about eternal life as a gift from God?
quote:
If we are spiritually dead prior to being born of God by faith, how are we able to be anything but enslaved to sin and death prior to being born again of God as new creations?
We are not able, but God is able through the preaching of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit to bring us to faith in Christ.
quote:
How do spiritually dead beings respond by faith? They certainly cannot have it with them.
The Gospel is the "seed" which germinates into faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Pet. 1:23).
Which brings us to the topic of eternal security, which again is quite simple. Since eternal life is God's GIFT to the sinner, it can never be taken back. And that is because it was a gift of God's grace to begin with. Grace shows favor to those who are undeserving to begin with. We did not deserve eternal life, we could not earn it, but we can have it for eternity by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2010 8:59:29 AM
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SouthBend
Posts: 253
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
I assume, if your not a Calvinist, you beleive babies and small children go to heaven when they die.
What is it commonly said of those who "assume?"
quote:
Then you must beleive at some point, past the age of accountability, that because of sin they will lose this security and need to be born again to regain their salvation.
So it seems you don't really believe in the doctrine of eternal security after all.
Why is it that you continue to feel the need to to build Strawmen in misrepresenting my position?
Not only is it being dishonest but you are actually building Strawmen against yourself whenever you attempt to discredit a position of any forum member which was made up in your own mind.
Want to know what a fellow forum member believes? Try asking them.
You may save yourself the time and trouble of following the rabbit trails created by your own false dichotomies.
quote:
What is it commonly said of those who "assume?"
lol Actually you are right, I shouldn't "assume". Although it was a pretty solid assumtion based on the fact that about three weeks ago you stated that you were not a Calvinist on the Pope thread.
quote:
quote:
Do you have to be a four point Calvinist or a five point Calvinist to believe this doctrine? I can’t keep up
Obviously not.
I am not a Calvinist.
quote:
Not only is it being dishonest but you are actually building Strawmen against yourself whenever you attempt to discredit a position of any forum member which was made up in your own mind.
No attempt at dishonesty here. You stated you believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved on another forum and you wanted to discuss it in the proper thread. My point about Calvinism was about what happens to children under the age of accountability. If you were a Calvinist you might believe predestination trumps any age of accountability belief. Again, my "assumtion" was only based on the chance you didn't switch theological positions in the past three weeks.
quote:
Want to know what a fellow forum member believes? Try asking them.
I tried asking you what seminary you attended on the Pope thread recently. That way I could find out for myself what doctrinal beliefs you might espouse. If you don't want to answer, I completely understand. But I did try.
So, as per your request, do you believe that below the age of accountability, that souls go to heaven without having been "born again"?
quote:
You may save yourself the time and trouble of following the rabbit trails created by your own false dichotomies.
Again, you requested the once saved always saved discussion be brought here. I really didn't mean to get on you nerves or accuse you of believing things you don't. I apologize if I gave you that impression.
Peace
_____________________________
"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans 110 A.D.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2010 4:09:28 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Back to the OP, in the following passage, Peter seems to offer assurance of persevering salvation to believers:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
- 1 Peter 1:3-5
Apparently, though, this salvation is not a present possession since it is reserved in heaven and will not be ready to be revealed until the last time. Of course, I suppose however you define "last time" would have a bearing and what you think of that.
The passage says: "has caused us to be born again....to obtain an inheritance...reserved in heaven". We receive the inheritance(reserved in heaven) when we die, when our soul which is eternally spiritually alive in Christ, enters heaven.
Even so, we don't receive our completed inheritance until the time of the end when our bodies enjoy glorification which is meant by "ready to be revealed in the last time."
We see the prayers of those in heaven in their soul existence awaiting the judgment on earth. Now will the children of God be "changed" and those souls awaiting in heaven will receive their completed inheritance: "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
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.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2010 4:12:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
Status: offline
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quote:
IORIGINAL: Irish2
f they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud” 2Peter(2:20-22).
So, according to Peter, it is better for a "saved" person never to have known Christ, then to have known Christ and then returned to their sinful ways. The following verses tells us who Peter is speaking about and it's not those whom the Lord has brought to salvation. The passages are referring to false teachers who bring their "damnable heresies"(verse 1) into the church. They know the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, the "way of righteousness" yet turn from it with their heresies. It's not implying they were ever saved.
2Peter 2:12-15 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;"
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/26/2010 2:01:58 AM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
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I've always viewed OSAS (once saved always saved) as a minor issue because whether you're for or against it you will still understand from Scriptures that a christian is not supposed to sin but show good morals. However, I now realize that it's one of the essential issues to ponder about because it could potentially make a person lose his salvation - if he thinks he is heaven bound when he in fact is bound for hell due to unrepented sins. I'm NOT saying that a person isn't saved for believing in OSAS, but I am saying there is a potential risk involved for christians who might have a hard time letting go of addictions and various sins if they have a limited motivation to quit. Temptations are hard enough as it is, and if we on top of that believe sins will not make us lose our salvation, then we might get even more tempted to slip once in a while - or even regularly.
The Bible however teaches that sins can prohibit a person from entering the kingdom. It takes 1 act of adultery to be an adulterer (also under the Levitical law) etc. Jesus even told us to pluck our eyes out if they lead us into sin. I don't feel it's right for christians to call themselves "sinners", because we can read in the Bible that sinners won't inherit the kingdom. We are either sinners or righteous, and naturally we were all sinners before we were born again. I even believe it's possible to live without the sins listed in Gal 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9,10, 2 Tim 3:2-5, etc even if most of us have not lived in that way even as born again. We don't have to murder, steal, hate, lie, etc. But there are also other sins not listed among the sins that will make you lose your salvation (unless you repent) such as worries, not being completely thankful, etc, and I don't think it's possible to completely live without them. All sins are not equal (Jn 19:11) and some are even an abomination before the Lord. The grace of God doesn't mean that God gives us a little space to sin, but it teaches us to say NO to sins: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age" (Titus 2:11,12) Read also 1 Thess 4:3-8 that we even reject God himeslf if we reject the instruction to live holy.
The prodigal son was dead and lost while he was in wild living with prostitutes, but we are told that he came back alive AGAIN (Luke 15:24). King David lived as an unrepented adulterer and murderer for several months, eventhough he was "a man of God's own heart". What he did was evil and we know from Ezekiel that he lost more than the joy
of his salvation. He lost his salvation too: "If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. "(Ezek 33:18) We know he repented though and got it back.
Jesus told his own saved disciples that they would all fall away. Peter vehemently denied he would do such a thing, but Jesus assured him he would disown him 3 times, which he did. Jesus also said: "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Mat 10:33) . If Jesus spoke the truth, Peter therefore fell away and lost his salvation due to disowning him. We are also told he repented and therefore got it back.
"But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matt 6:15). Jesus died for all our sins, but our future sins are not automatically forgiven. Jesus taught that sins that once were forgiven can be brought up as unforgiven once again, if we don't forgive our brothers, as per the parable in Mt. 18:21-35.
OSAS preachers might claim that christians who do not believe they are eternally secure live their lives feeling unsecure and worried, but that't not true. We know we are secure today, as long as we continue to remain in Jesus - the vine. That's our part of the deal.Eternal life is of course eternal, but not our possession of it since we might fall away. It was eternal before a Christian ever possessed it at the point of getting born again. The devil wouldn't bother trying to tempt christians unless they could potentially fall. So christians still have free will to follow God or not also after being born again. Sin will bring forth spiritual death to those who turn away (James 5:19,20; Lk. 15:24; Rom. 8:13)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/26/2010 2:05:01 AM
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AnnYEC
Posts: 41
Joined: 2/8/2010
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Jesus - the vine:
I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. (John 15:1,2) Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:4-6)
Lk. 8:6.: For a branch to wither (or die) shows it had life in it before then or it would be impossible for it to wither. "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:12)
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:19-23)
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us even eternal life. (1 John 2:23-25)
We know that we have come to know him IF we obey his commands. The man who says, I know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3,4)
Some examples of verses by OSAS-teachers (wish I had room for more):
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:28) But we only have to read the previous sentence to see who "them" is referring. They are the sheep who LISTEN and FOLLOW him - present tense in the original Greek. As long as we follow him, we are secure, and eventhough noone else can take us away from him, we can turn our backs on God.
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. "(Ephesians 4:30) A seal doesn't mean it cannot be broken. The stone before Jesus grave was "sealed" (same Greek word) but it was still opened up. (Even covenants can be broken.) Being sealed means for instance "marked" and we are indeed marked with the holy spirit, however this doesn't mean we can't walk away.
“I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Mat 7:23), but this doesn't cover all the cases in the Bible, and we can read that it concerns "evildoers" and not necessarily "fake christians". In the case with the 5 maids who had forgotten the oil in their lamps when the bridegroom returned, the bridegroom told them "I don't know you".
/Ann
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/26/2010 7:10:40 PM
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ASharpSword
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnnYEC
Jesus - the vine:
I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. (John 15:1,2) Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:4-6)
Lk. 8:6.: For a branch to wither (or die) shows it had life in it before then or it would be impossible for it to wither. "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:12)
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:19-23)
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us even eternal life. (1 John 2:23-25)
We know that we have come to know him IF we obey his commands. The man who says, I know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3,4)
Some examples of verses by OSAS-teachers (wish I had room for more):
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:28) But we only have to read the previous sentence to see who "them" is referring. They are the sheep who LISTEN and FOLLOW him - present tense in the original Greek. As long as we follow him, we are secure, and eventhough noone else can take us away from him, we can turn our backs on God.
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. "(Ephesians 4:30) A seal doesn't mean it cannot be broken. The stone before Jesus grave was "sealed" (same Greek word) but it was still opened up. (Even covenants can be broken.) Being sealed means for instance "marked" and we are indeed marked with the holy spirit, however this doesn't mean we can't walk away.
“I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Mat 7:23), but this doesn't cover all the cases in the Bible, and we can read that it concerns "evildoers" and not necessarily "fake christians". In the case with the 5 maids who had forgotten the oil in their lamps when the bridegroom returned, the bridegroom told them "I don't know you".
/Ann
Great post, I agree 100%. Some of those verses have that "if" word. That "if" word means something is conditional. We ARE once saved always saved IF we continue in faith, that's the whole point.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2010 2:31:01 PM
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scriptureprevails
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Jesus said 'those who have believed have passed from death into life,' and 'of all that He has given Me I lose nothing.' He has promised security. That's a lot of assurance.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2010 4:10:16 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 1847
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From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Thanks, AnnYEC, for the previous two posts. You have some good insights and I agree with you. OSAS is not a biblical doctrine.
Apparently someone forgot to tell Jesus this.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:27-29
quote:
Some of those verses have that "if" word. That "if" word means something is conditional. We ARE once saved always saved IF we continue in faith, that's the whole point.
Hi Sword. Would you be kind enough to show me and point out the "conditional" clauses in the verses I quoted above, John 10:27-29? Thanks.
_____________________________
"Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love, let not all the hardship seem little to you that has come upon us...." Nehemiah 9:32
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 7:44:13 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
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From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Thanks, AnnYEC, for the previous two posts. You have some good insights and I agree with you. OSAS is not a biblical doctrine.
Apparently someone forgot to tell Jesus this.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:27-29
I agree with these verses. I also agree with the following verses.
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, as long as they continue to crucify once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6).
Surely you don't believe that the people described here, who were obviously once saved, will continue to be saved while they are "crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm" do you?
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 8:24:21 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
Apparently someone forgot to tell Jesus this.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:27-29
Hi Sword. Would you be kind enough to show me and point out the "conditional" clauses in the verses I quoted above, John 10:27-29? Thanks.
WEll I am not sword, but I took the liberty of pointing out the conditional part of the verse you posted in bold.
As long as a believer is following Christ, everythng is cool, stop following Christ and the deal is off..
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 9:07:32 AM
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ASharpSword
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
Hi Sword. Would you be kind enough to show me and point out the "conditional" clauses in the verses I quoted above, John 10:27-29? Thanks.
If you take one verse, you must take them all. Even if those verses don't contain conditional parts, other verses do, especially the parables. How about the prodigal son? What if he didn't return to his father? He'd be lost forever. How about the parable of the sower? Some seed falls in the rocks and withered away. Some seed fell in the thorns and were ultimately choked out. What do you think all of that means?
No one can snatch you out of the Father's hand. That's a true statement. What it's saying is that your faith is between you and God. No one can force you to disbelieve. No one can force you to disobey. Your faith is up to you.
There's a verse that AnnYEC didn't post that I'd like to throw in this as well.
Hebrews 3:6 says... "but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house--whose house we are, IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm UNTIL THE END."
What if we don't hold fast our confidence, or boast of our hope?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 9:42:10 AM
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Rastus_
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Let's see, today's Thursday, so chalk one up for me under 'can lose salvation', lol!
But seriously, there are several 'if' statements in the scriptures that defend the belief that you must persevere in the faith you started out with to be saved in the end. For me 1 Cor. 15:1-2 is pretty clear about starting out in believing and the need to continue to believe:
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
If you don't continue to believe, any believing before that has been in vain.
As pointed out, Jesus was not suggesting a person could not walk out of the grace of God on their own, but that nothing could snatch them out against their will or power to resist (as long they continually called out to God, for who has the power in and of themselves to persevere?). And God's discipline has a way of correcting the wandering saint and bringing him back to his senses. I think only the most persistent rebellion in a person could cause them to abandon God and resist all efforts by God to keep them in the promise of salvation.
The rest of the argument from John's gospels is that only those who had a flawed faith to begin with walk away and that they never really belonged to God in the first place. Like I say, it's Thursday and that's only a convincing argument for me on other day's of the week. And truthfully, as I get older in the Lord it's true on fewer and fewer days of the week. Salvation is 'conditional' on faith all the way from the very beginning to the very end. We persevere in salvation the same way we received it--by faith. No faith on the Day of Wrath means no salvation on the Day of Wrath.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2010 9:45:57 AM
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AnnYEC
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Scripture said: Jesus said 'those who have believed have passed from death into life,' and 'of all that He has given Me I lose nothing.' He has promised security. That's a lot of assurance.
A: Indeed, those who believe have passed from death to life, and that's why I feel I have life right now. However, if I fall away (as in the branch no longer remaining in the vine) then I no longer have life.
And who are those which Jesus will lose none of, given to him by the Father? The believers of course. Those who have their names in the book of life. The final edition of it that is, since our names can be taken away from the book of life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2010 9:50:38 AM
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AnnYEC
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Apparently someone forgot to tell Jesus this.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:27-29
A: Strange that you decided to use this verse eventhough I refuted it in my first posts. I wrote that his sheep LISTEN to him and FOLLOW him, and that is continuos tense in Greek. Those sheep who do this will not be snatched out of his hands by someone else. However, nowhere does it say that we can not turn our backs on Jesus and no more listen or follow him.
We can lose our salvation through sin, and if we don't repent.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2010 9:59:06 AM
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AnnYEC
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Amen to Greatdivide and those others who could detect the conditions for eternal security.
If you're looking for more Ifs, I post some more here (+ 2 extra verses) but I know there are many more:
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. (1 Tim 4:16)
For IF you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (Rom. 8:13).
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. (1 John 2:23-25)
If you keep my commandmens, you will abide in my love. (and) You are my friends, IF you do what I command you. John 15:10 and 14.
We know that we have come to know him IF we obey his commands. The man who says, I know him but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3,4)
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)
IF you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. (John 15:7)
We have come to share in Christ IF we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. (Heb 3:14)
But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. (Heb 3:6)
Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Pet 1:5-11)
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant (Col. 1:22, 23).
The LORD is with you when you are with him. IF you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. 2 Chron. 15:2
I tell you the truth, IF anyone keeps my word, he will never see death. (John 8:51)
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. (James 1:12)
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. (Rev 3:11)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2010 2:35:40 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnnYEC
We can lose our salvation through sin, and if we don't repent.
How much sin takes away your salvation and how do you know when you've lost it?
And why doesn't eternal mean eternal?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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