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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2010 9:04:01 AM
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Eutychus
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In John 17:12 the NASB reads, "...not one of them perished but the son of perdition..."
Perditions means "eternal damnation" or "hell" or "absolute ruin." IMHO, that description by Jesus of Judas shows he was never a godly man. To borrow from Jesus, Judas was a tare among wheat.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2010 12:59:08 AM
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GodisLove1
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I would like to know how many people out there, through this thread, have been convinced one way or the other concerning Eternal Security.
If you would like to participate, please choose one answer below:
1) I believed that once I was saved, I was forever saved, and I still do.
2) I used to believe that once I was saved, I was always saved. But, now I'm not sure
3) I used to believe that once I was saved, I was always saved. But, now I believe I could loose my salvation.
4) I believed that I could loose my salvation, and I still do.
5) I used to believe that I could loose my salvation. But, now I'm not sure.
6) I used to believe that I could loose my salvation. But, now I know I can't.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2010 4:30:02 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Judas was not "given" in the sense of becoming a child of God as were the other Apostles. Nor, did the Lord "lose" Judas as if He were "unable" to keep him. His destiny had already been written - he would never become saved - we see this much from the OT prophecies and from the words of the Lord in John 13:18 "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me." So did Judas not perform miracles, cast out demons, etc., like the other Apostles? Well, according to Mat 7:22-23, performing miracles wasn't always an indication of salvation: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
quote:
quote:
From what you're saying, it seems like you think it's possible for God to fail at something, i.e., the Lord Jesus "failed" when Judas was lost. The Lord Jesus Christ is eternal God, He cannot fail. Jesus' loss of Judas was not a matter of failure. It was a matter of fulfilling Scripture as John 17:12 clearly states and which I've drawn attention to several times, now. So, I assume you'd agree that Judas' being lost should not be used as a support for.....gee, what do you guys call it?.....eternal insecurity? :)
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2010 7:48:36 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Well, according to Mat 7:22-23, performing miracles wasn't always an indication of salvation:
Agreed.
quote:
So, I assume you'd agree that Judas' being lost should not be used as a support for.....gee, what do you guys call it?.....eternal insecurity? :)
No, Judas is an example of someone whom Jesus had an one time and then lost. Not due to any failure on Jesus' part but to fulfill Scripture. Jesus Himself says as much in John 17:12. One cannot lose something one has never possessed. I realize, though, that apparently not all English versions translate it that way (thank you, Eutychus!) 
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 2:07:42 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
So, I assume you'd agree that Judas' being lost should not be used as a support for.....gee, what do you guys call it?.....eternal insecurity? :)
No, Judas is an example of someone whom Jesus had an one time and then lost. Not due to any failure on Jesus' part but to fulfill Scripture. Jesus Himself says as much in John 17:12. One cannot lose something one has never possessed. I realize, though, that apparently not all English versions translate it that way (thank you, Eutychus!) We see the Lord Jesus essentially saying in John 6:70 that Judas was never His in the same sense as the other apostles. "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
The Lord Jesus, of course, knew that Judas was not a true believer so He could never have "lost" him in the sense of salvation. In John 13:18-19, the Lord is more clearly indicating that He did not choose Judas to salvation and accordingly Judas was never given to Him by the Father - in the sense of salvation. "If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 8:26:27 AM
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greatdivide46
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Apparently you are correct. Jesus never chose Judas. At least I don't know that Jesus ever said He chose Judas. Nevertheless, he was given to Jesus by the Father according to John 17:12. Whether that was in the sense of salvation or not I can't tell. Seems it was in the sense of fulfilling Scripture though.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2010 12:56:19 PM
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wacotton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Apparently you are correct. Jesus never chose Judas. At least I don't know that Jesus ever said He chose Judas. Nevertheless, he was given to Jesus by the Father according to John 17:12. Whether that was in the sense of salvation or not I can't tell. Seems it was in the sense of fulfilling Scripture though.
quote:
"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
I think this verse clearly shows that Jesus did choose Judas.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/12/2010 3:29:28 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Apparently you are correct. Jesus never chose Judas. At least I don't know that Jesus ever said He chose Judas. Nevertheless, he was given to Jesus by the Father according to John 17:12. Whether that was in the sense of salvation or not I can't tell. Seems it was in the sense of fulfilling Scripture though.
quote:
"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
I think this verse clearly shows that Jesus did choose Judas.
Just as God chose Pharaoh and a number of other men in scripture to do His bidding. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere in scripture that the son of perdition ever had saving faith or was godly in any sense of the word.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/12/2010 6:53:17 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Just as God chose Pharaoh and a number of other men in scripture to do His bidding. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere in scripture that the son of perdition ever had saving faith or was godly in any sense of the word.
Perhaps. Nevertheless, were Judas' actions while he was one of the twelve any different than that of the other eleven (other than the fact that he was a thief, that is).
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/15/2010 4:12:14 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Well, according to Mat 7:22-23, performing miracles wasn't always an indication of salvation:
Agreed.
quote:
So, I assume you'd agree that Judas' being lost should not be used as a support for.....gee, what do you guys call it?.....eternal insecurity? :)
No, Judas is an example of someone whom Jesus had an one time and then lost. Not due to any failure on Jesus' part but to fulfill Scripture. Jesus Himself says as much in John 17:12. One cannot lose something one has never possessed. I realize, though, that apparently not all English versions translate it that way (thank you, Eutychus!)
Reading John 18 made me think of our discussion and perhaps it sheds some additional light on the Lord "losing" Judas. On the night of His arrest, He told those sent by the pharisees to allow the disciples who were with Him to go free.
Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: 9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
Seems like this is support, along with John 6:70, John 13:18-19 for the fact that Judas was never given to the Lord in the salvific sense. What do you think?
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/15/2010 4:13:54 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Just as God chose Pharaoh and a number of other men in scripture to do His bidding. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere in scripture that the son of perdition ever had saving faith or was godly in any sense of the word.
Perhaps. Nevertheless, were Judas' actions while he was one of the twelve any different than that of the other eleven (other than the fact that he was a thief, that is).
Seems like that would be more than enough difference...being a thief :)
I doubt the other Apostles knew he was stealing, though.
This is an example of the "wheat and tares". In the church, believers and unbelievers look very much alike.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/15/2010 6:43:49 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Seems like this is support, along with John 6:70, John 13:18-19 for the fact that Judas was never given to the Lord in the salvific sense. What do you think? I think you may have a point.
quote:
Seems like that would be more than enough difference...being a thief :)
I doubt the other Apostles knew he was stealing, though.
This is an example of the "wheat and tares". In the church, believers and unbelievers look very much alike.
I'm sure none of the other twelve were sin-free. The fact that Judas was a thief just means he was committing a different and more obvious sin that the rest of the twelve. They were all sinners. And as you point out, he didn't look any different from the rest of the twelve so that they would notice anything and be able to identify him as the betrayer.
I agree though that Judas was not saved.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2010 11:28:00 PM
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gralan
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Personally I'm not so sure that the other disciples/Apostles looked any different from anyone else until after the day of Pentecost.
Even prior to Pentecost you have Peter standing up to fill Judas' empty spot with casting lots when obviously Paul was the choice of Jesus for filling the slot.
IMO
I think the Apostolic slot was only Jesus' to hand pick. Perhaps I'm wrong but I have no idea how. I'm open to suggestions if I'm missing the point, because Jesus talked about the 12 not the 13.
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2010 8:02:36 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
Personally I'm not so sure that the other disciples/Apostles looked any different from anyone else until after the day of Pentecost.
Even prior to Pentecost you have Peter standing up to fill Judas' empty spot with casting lots when obviously Paul was the choice of Jesus for filling the slot.
IMO
I think the Apostolic slot was only Jesus' to hand pick. Perhaps I'm wrong but I have no idea how. I'm open to suggestions if I'm missing the point, because Jesus talked about the 12 not the 13.
I've heard this before, and you may be right. Certainly we hear a lot more about the Apostle Paul then we do about the Apostle Matthias.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 10:51:10 AM
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Eutychus
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Back to the OP, in the following passage, Peter seems to offer assurance of persevering salvation to believers:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
- 1 Peter 1:3-5
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 11:01:16 AM
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gralan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Back to the OP, in the following passage, Peter seems to offer assurance of persevering salvation to believers:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
- 1 Peter 1:3-5
There is another passage that talks about us being sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of visitation (which is when Jesus comes back for us).
Amen Eutychus. I do not know how else to interpret the words of the text you quoted from Peter.
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 12:20:21 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
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From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Back to the OP, in the following passage, Peter seems to offer assurance of persevering salvation to believers:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
- 1 Peter 1:3-5
Apparently, though, this salvation is not a present possession since it is reserved in heaven and will not be ready to be revealed until the last time. Of course, I suppose however you define "last time" would have a bearing and what you think of that.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 12:34:15 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Back to the OP, in the following passage, Peter seems to offer assurance of persevering salvation to believers:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
- 1 Peter 1:3-5
Apparently, though, this salvation is not a present possession since it is reserved in heaven and will not be ready to be revealed until the last time. Of course, I suppose however you define "last time" would have a bearing and what you think of that.
The "last time" doesn't alter the meaning, despite how it is defined. Note "who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation". Just as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a surity or non-refundable down payment.
Would you like us to post scripture where salvation is PRESENT tense, because we can?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 12:34:22 PM
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gralan
Posts: 498
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From: RV in Texas
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Hello,
From what I can tell our salvation is promised us and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until Jesus comes back bringing our salvation with Him.
Isn't that correct?
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Back to the OP, in the following passage, Peter seems to offer assurance of persevering salvation to believers:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
- 1 Peter 1:3-5
Apparently, though, this salvation is not a present possession since it is reserved in heaven and will not be ready to be revealed until the last time. Of course, I suppose however you define "last time" would have a bearing and what you think of that.
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 1:59:00 PM
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mysteryofgospel
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All,
From what I have read on this thread, the argument seems to be theoretical in nature. Each one uses scripture to prove his/her point.
I wanted to answer from the reality standpoint and would like to hear answers from a reality point of view if you care to share, and especially from conditional salvationists.
Here is my reality. I asked Christ into my life almost thirty years ago and He is still here and I with Him.
The first five years after accepting Christ I lived a dual life of debauchery during the week and sainthood on Sunday mornings, and on Sunday and Wednesday evenings being fed the word.
Ever so slowly I began to understand that I didn't sin so grace would abound and many other key doctrines. Christ never left me and I never left Christ
From my standpoint, salvation is eternal once accepted.
The other thing I see is that my sister, who lives several states away from me was taught conditional salvation, also thirty years ago, and remains faithful to this day.
So really the only one I know who is eternally saved is me. And, although my sister believes salvation is conditional, her life is an example of eternal salvation.
This then becomes my reality, and my belief.
But don't get me wrong, it is also my doctrine.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 2:25:37 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
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From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Would you like us to post scripture where salvation is PRESENT tense, because we can?
Not necessary. I believe salvation is a present possession. I was merely commenting on the verse you posted which says that a salvation is reserved in heaven and will be ready to be revealed in last time.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 2:27:12 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
Hello,
From what I can tell our salvation is promised us and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until Jesus comes back bringing our salvation with Him.
Isn't that correct? Yes, that is correct. Although, there is a sense in which our salvation is already present in us, too, I believe.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 6:15:32 PM
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gralan
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Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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I accepted Christ as my savior in 1971, in terms of some formal acceptance and acknowledgement. I stood up and said "That's what I want"!
I pursued that relationship with God.
During my young life I had faltered between immature and living as if God didn't matter. While I was in my denial stage, I sinned as fully and deeply as anyone I was around... at a minimum. I do not believe there are acceptable sins and unacceptable, I'm just saying going over the speed limit and lying were the least of my worries.
Before I got married, at age 36, I was brought home to roost by the Holy Spirit. And for the moment that's all I'm going to say about that (just like the fictional forrest gump said).
I've had to grapple with the ideas of the salvation I read of in the Bible.
Because of God's nature and the character of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible, I believe that my salvation has everything to do with what Jesus, the eternal Son of God, our Father God, and the Holy Spirit did and are doing.
I'm glad God had grace to save a sinner like me.
That is the thumbnail version of my testimony. There many be those who question my being saved, but I do not nor do those who are close to me at home or church.
I think OSAS is a phrase that is so loaded with baggage that it cannot be adequately used properly anymore for intelligent conversation. Opponents have set too many strawmen arguments up based upon exact wording of that phrase.
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 8:19:15 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 1232
Joined: 1/5/2006
From: Alexandria, VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
Hello,
From what I can tell our salvation is promised us and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until Jesus comes back bringing our salvation with Him.
Isn't that correct? Yes, that is correct. Although, there is a sense in which our salvation is already present in us, too, I believe.
When scripture speaks of salvation as a future possession it is just refering to the Lord coming back to claim what he has already purchased. It's already a done deal for Christ has already paid the highest price for us. We are his special(peculiar) treasures and we are his Eternally.
_____________________________
"The Bible has dispelled ignorance and superstition in every land where its free and and unrestrained reading has been encouraged." - Dr. Ironside
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