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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 3:39:06 PM
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W.O.F.
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From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Here is the problem, if you get into the habit of allowing yourself to discipline when you are angry you can easily baby step into abuse. Every time you do not control yourself, it is possible to do just a little bit more. A little bit more and a little bit more can very easily lead to abuse. If you cannot control your own anger, send yourself to your room. It doesn't have to be "to death" to be very, very wrong. This is not even about spanking parents vs non spanking parents. It is more about the idea that as long as the parent is "working on it" then okay. To me it is simple, if you are that angry don't discipline at that time. Waiting for the parent to calm down will not cause the child emotional harm. It is not rejection or abandonment, it is gaining control of a situation that you must be in control of.
The problem is...no one here allows themselves to continue to discipline when angry...they work on NOT doing it...which is no where near taking baby steps to abuse.
And yes...sometimes waiting CAN cause emotional harm to the child...I have seen it. I have dealt with it.
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 3:47:13 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Here is the problem, if you get into the habit of allowing yourself to discipline when you are angry you can easily baby step into abuse.
Nobody is saying that's a habit we should nourish. It is not OK, it should not happen once, it should not happen more than once. But all of us are human and all of us are going to fail in our goal of reaching the ideal and the perfect. If a dedicated gentle-parent (no spanking) loses it and screams at her kids in anger, she is just as wrong as the one who smacks the rear of her child in anger, and that does happen, you know.  Both are wrong, both have failed, both can repent, both can do better, and both have the potential to fail again at some point in the future.
_____________________________
 Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 3:48:19 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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quote:
The problem is...no one here allows themselves to continue to discipline when angry...they work on NOT doing it...which is no where near taking baby steps to abuse.
See, but you don't know that. You don't know that someone here doesn't continue to discipline in anger. Hence why I am just giving things to think about. I said much earlier, if you spank in anger perhaps you should think about if you have enough control to discipline in that way. I did not say, stop spanking, I said, maybe you should consider it.
quote:
And yes...sometimes waiting CAN cause emotional harm to the child...I have seen it. I have dealt with it.
You and I should sit down with a cup of coffee some time and share war stories. Hey, I am not discounting emotional abuse and scars. I will be the first one to tell you the emotional and mental number (abuse) my mother did on me left deeper scars than the physical. But it isn't really which one is worse, it is how do we help prevent both. Most abusers may be in control, most may be this way or that way. But I would like to see the child whose mother is just beyond her ability to cope, not be abused even one singe time.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 3:50:08 PM
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Room2Grow
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Yes, I use hot sauce- a dab on my finger and then put it on her tongue. For this child, after trying just about everything else, I did, and it worked. If she is having a rough day, I place the bottle on the counter and ask her to get control of herself, or I will help her with that- most times, that is all it takes. I think she has had this punishment about 5 times in 3 years- she does not like it and the possibility is enough to snap her out of her behavior (it is not my "go to" discipline for every day, it is when other things like time out, talking, etc. are not working). I do NOT squelch her feelings- she is perfectly welcome to disagree and share feelings, but there is an appropriate way to do that. Screaming, sassing, and saying hateful things are not acceptable to me. There are times when she tries to complain about something in an inappropriate manor- she gets warned to think about how she is talking to me and then we will discuss it. We have also role played how to appropriately "complain" to us as parents. No, she does not have to agree with/like everything we do, but she does have to be respectful. We also reward her efforts (ie. I really wanted to play this game, but you said it is bed time- can I please just play one time?) by meeting her request. Not every time, but when we do, and when it is reasonable (ie we don't have to get up early for church the next day), we point out that she is being respectful, explaining her point without rudeness, and we are hearing her.
As for spanking in anger- let me clarify. We spank your age plus one, so just because I'm *feeling* angry about your behavior, does not mean you get more or less punishment, it just means that my heart attitude is not right. Frankly (for me) I think spanking in anger is less damaging than screaming in anger. Spanking (or any discipline really) should be a matter-of-fact event. Allowing a child's behavior to make you angry is not the ideal no matter your chosen form of discipline. Again, *for me* when I spank in anger, it is my heart attitude, expression on my face, and demeanor that are wrong- I have never, nor would I ever spank when enraged (defined as being out of control). I am much more ashamed of the times when my children have made me angry and I have lost control of my tongue and yelled at them- never hateful things, but still, screaming. That is not appropriate either and I think it can be even more damaging even though they were never touched. (and yes, I apologize to them and explain that while their actions were still wrong, I should not have yelled at them)
Am I going to discipline in anger again? Probably. Is it right? No. Avoidable? Perhaps- and I daily seek to separate my emotions from their behavior as there really should be no connection. Am I excusing that as being alright? No, but I am also not foolish enough to think that in my fallen state I will never again make a mistake as a parent. Last night I was up from 3:00-5:30 with sick kids and awake once before that too. Am I being extra careful to watch my temper today? Yes, but will situations similar to this arise again in the future and I will lose my temper- probably. I hope not. I ask God for patience and wisdom in dealing with my children, but I am a sinner and I am not perfect. I do not view it as holding my children to a higher standard because when I make a mistake as a parent, I go to them and apologize and make it right with them in the same way that I expect them to admit faults, apologize and seek reconciliation.
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Jennifer
Jesus knows me, this I love.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 3:51:03 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
See, but you don't know that. You don't know that someone here doesn't continue to discipline in anger. Hence why I am just giving things to think about. I said much earlier, if you spank in anger perhaps you should think about if you have enough control to discipline in that way. I did not say, stop spanking, I said, maybe you should consider it.
But on the other side of that, if a parent loses control one time or two and screams and hollers at their children, should they stop using words for discipline? Anything can be twisted and misused. If it is, it is not the "thing" (a spank, words, time out, whatever) that is the problem, and blaming it on the "thing" fails to address the state of the person's heart which is so out of order.
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Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 3:55:19 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 487
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From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Here is the problem, if you get into the habit of allowing yourself to discipline when you are angry you can easily baby step into abuse.
Nobody is saying that's a habit we should nourish. It is not OK, it should not happen once, it should not happen more than once. But all of us are human and all of us are going to fail in our goal of reaching the ideal and the perfect. If a dedicated gentle-parent (no spanking) loses it and screams at her kids in anger, she is just as wrong as the one who smacks the rear of her child in anger, and that does happen, you know. Both are wrong, both have failed, both can repent, both can do better, and both have the potential to fail again at some point in the future.
Exactly....
I think that sometimes spankers are more aware of the potential to fail in this area....
Most research backs up that MOST spankings that become abuse are those parents who, for the most part, choose NOT to spank but lose it. Those who have deliberately chosen spanking as a form of discipline have safeguards in place already so that if done in anger...those safeguards are already there.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 3:55:20 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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3Capps, screaming is not using words for disciplining to begin with it is losing control of yourself. If you continually or even often scream at your kids, then yes I would say perhaps you should consider some anger and stress managment.
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Karen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 4:00:29 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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quote:
Nobody is saying that's a habit we should nourish. It is not OK, it should not happen once, it should not happen more than once. But all of us are human and all of us are going to fail in our goal of reaching the ideal and the perfect. If a dedicated gentle-parent (no spanking) loses it and screams at her kids in anger, she is just as wrong as the one who smacks the rear of her child in anger, and that does happen, you know. Both are wrong, both have failed, both can repent, both can do better, and both have the potential to fail again at some point in the future.
Thank you 3capps, this will help me make my meandering point. I agree with what you are saying 100%. Here is my concern, what I am seeing is a laissez faire attitude towards spanking in anger. I am reading a "yes I did it, but everyone else does and I am not perfect so it may not be okay but it isn't that big of a deal". I am saying it should be a very big deal whether you spank, gentle parent, whatever, it should be a huge deal that you lost it and screwed up big time. I am not saying that all spankers are like this but it is a feeling I am getting from some that disturbs me.
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Karen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 4:04:52 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
quote:
Nobody is saying that's a habit we should nourish. It is not OK, it should not happen once, it should not happen more than once. But all of us are human and all of us are going to fail in our goal of reaching the ideal and the perfect. If a dedicated gentle-parent (no spanking) loses it and screams at her kids in anger, she is just as wrong as the one who smacks the rear of her child in anger, and that does happen, you know. Both are wrong, both have failed, both can repent, both can do better, and both have the potential to fail again at some point in the future.
Thank you 3capps, this will help me make my meandering point. I agree with what you are saying 100%. Here is my concern, what I am seeing is a laissez faire attitude towards spanking in anger. I am reading a "yes I did it, but everyone else does and I am not perfect so it may not be okay but it isn't that big of a deal". I am saying it should be a very big deal whether you spank, gentle parent, whatever, it should be a huge deal that you lost it and screwed up big time. I am not saying that all spankers are like this but it is a feeling I am getting from some that disturbs me.
But again, the attitude or prevailing feeling has NOTHING to do with spanking and everything to do with anger. That anger happens to (at times) be brought out because of the spanking topic of this thread, but at other times it is conveyed to a child through other means of discipline. It has nothing to do with the spanking topic though and has everything to do with the heart and anger no matter the type of discipline.
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My Peculiar World
"God spreads grace like a 4 year old spreads peanut butter. He gets it all over everything!" ~Mark Lowry
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 4:05:27 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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And now, as much as I enjoy parrying with so many rapiers all by myself, it is a gorgeous day, my babies are up, and we are off to the park. I hope you all have a good day.
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Karen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2010 5:33:43 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Room2Grow
Yes, I use hot sauce- a dab on my finger and then put it on her tongue. For this child, after trying just about everything else, I did, and it worked. If she is having a rough day, I place the bottle on the counter and ask her to get control of herself, or I will help her with that- most times, that is all it takes. I think she has had this punishment about 5 times in 3 years- she does not like it and the possibility is enough to snap her out of her behavior (it is not my "go to" discipline for every day, it is when other things like time out, talking, etc. are not working). I do NOT squelch her feelings- she is perfectly welcome to disagree and share feelings, but there is an appropriate way to do that.
In my opinion, that is not a cruel way to punish. It's hardly burning the child's tongue, just causing some discomfort. And sometimes a parent has to do what a parent has to do.
My younger brother was a terrible biter, and I was his most frequent victim, though he once bit a newborn on the face at church. If you were the parent of that newborn, would you want my parents to be gentle and sweet? My parents tried many different tactics to get him to correct his behavior, and ultimately what worked was biting him back - hard. Speaking as the recipient of most of my brother's bites, I think they did the right thing.
He had to feel first hand just how much pain he was causing, and it had to hurt. And no, asking him to bite himself wouldn't have worked, either.
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Well behaved women rarely make the history books.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 8:02:31 AM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 487
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From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: Room2Grow
Yes, I use hot sauce- a dab on my finger and then put it on her tongue. For this child, after trying just about everything else, I did, and it worked. If she is having a rough day, I place the bottle on the counter and ask her to get control of herself, or I will help her with that- most times, that is all it takes. I think she has had this punishment about 5 times in 3 years- she does not like it and the possibility is enough to snap her out of her behavior (it is not my "go to" discipline for every day, it is when other things like time out, talking, etc. are not working). I do NOT squelch her feelings- she is perfectly welcome to disagree and share feelings, but there is an appropriate way to do that.
In my opinion, that is not a cruel way to punish. It's hardly burning the child's tongue, just causing some discomfort. And sometimes a parent has to do what a parent has to do.
My younger brother was a terrible biter, and I was his most frequent victim, though he once bit a newborn on the face at church. If you were the parent of that newborn, would you want my parents to be gentle and sweet? My parents tried many different tactics to get him to correct his behavior, and ultimately what worked was biting him back - hard. Speaking as the recipient of most of my brother's bites, I think they did the right thing.
He had to feel first hand just how much pain he was causing, and it had to hurt. And no, asking him to bite himself wouldn't have worked, either.
There are many biters that end up having to be bit to get them to stop........and your parents DID try many other things...so I don't think they were wrong either.
I have seen kids bite themselves so hard they drew blood and then still continue on to bite other kids...they were doing it because they KNEW it hurt and it gave them POWER....but usually once someone else (either another child or whomever) gave them a chomp...ta da!
It comes down to finding out what works for the child....which is going to differ from one child to the next. There is NO one size fits all.....
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 8:23:33 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
My younger brother was a terrible biter, and I was his most frequent victim, though he once bit a newborn on the face at church.
How old was he when he did that?
(And why was he anywhere near a newborn baby? If I was the parent of that newborn, I'd consider it my responsibility to keep my newborn from possible harm from other children, so I would not be concerned how the parents did or didn't punish the boy.
quote:
If you were the parent of that newborn, would you want my parents to be gentle and sweet?
Ruth, you still seem to think that there are only two types of discipline: spanking, and being "gentle and sweet", without allowing for an approach that is somewhere in between.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 8:32:23 AM
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Sideways
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The newborn incident was (I believe) rather early in his biting career, but I don't remember how young he was. He was definitely less then 3 and probably less then 2. The parents were there, it was the church nursery. But he had everyone fooled, he made like he was going to give the baby a sweet kiss, then turned at the last second.
Maybe I should use different words, instead of gentle parenting?
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Well behaved women rarely make the history books.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 9:29:50 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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It might be good to use different words. It seems that you equate gentle parenting with permissive parenting. They are really not the same. Just because I don't spank doesn't mean I trot after my kids with a sugary voice saying, "Now honey, that is making a bad choice. Now sweetie, don't do that. Come back to mommy. Baby girl don't hit your brother with a bat. Now that is not a good choice." There is a whole world of parenting out there between the two. (Spanking and permissive)
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Karen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 9:33:53 AM
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pwfaith
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TammyIsBlessed
I guess we could all try to summarize our position. State what we do and why.
I'll start!
I do not think spanking is either mandated or forbidden by the Bible.
I'm not 100% sure whether the rod referred to in the Bible is meant as a guidance tool, a comforting tool or a punishment tool, or perhaps a combination of all 3.
We do spank but only for outright defiance/disobedience and lying. We do not ALWAYS spank for those things, but usually do. We never spank without letting our kids be able to predict the consequences of their actions. (ie they know they will get a spanking for doing something before they do it). Spankings do not occur very often in our household.
We do lightly swat babies as a training tool.
We will probably stop spanking around the age of 5-7 (not sure yet!) - after that, my personal opinion is that there are other more effective means of disciplinary action that can be used instead.
Spanking should never be done in anger.
I do not think parents HAVE to spank in order for their children to turn out well.
I do think spanking is the most effective method of discipline SOME of the time, but not for all children. Different things work for different kids.
I think consistency and love in any type of discipline is the key no matter which type of "punishment" is used - be it spankings, time outs, natural consequences, etc.
Well said! We feel pretty much the same way. I think spanking can be overused and lose it's effectiveness too. I've seen it happen with relatives. If you are ever looking for something good to do with older kids (although we still use time outs for our 6, 8, & 9 yr olds - they stand against the wall - rare but effective when it does happen) I highly recommend Wise Words for Moms! Even my husband uses it. I started using it when my oldest was probably 6, got away from using it and recently came back to it. It makes SUCH a different. Really opens the lines of communication and hits the heart issue, which is really what we need to be getting at anyway with discipline, not just "it was wrong" but WHY it was wrong, etc. kwim?
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 9:38:48 AM
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pwfaith
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I have a question for those who don't spank and/or think it is wrong to spank - do you yell? I know not everyone does and obviously just b/c you spank doesn't mean you don't yell too but in my experience in other conversations with parents I have always found it interesting to see people get down right nasty (not necessarily here as I haven't been here that long or read all the posts) condemning spankers, even to the point of calling them abusive parents - yet when asked if they yell they readily admit they do, that they know they shouldn't, they do it out of anger and they know it's demeaning. I have yelled on occasion and as I stated above we do spank occasionally. I have never felt bad for spanking, b/c we talk first and I'm not angry or frustrated (if I am I walk away and come back to discipline). But I have almost always felt bad after yelling b/c I'm at the end of my rope and taking it out on them. I can see how some parents feel this way about spanking if they are the same way when they use it. I think it's wrong in such a time and case - out of anger. I think it's harder to yell and be self-controlled about it (as yelling typically isn't considered a form of discipline) than it is to spank and be self-controlled about it, using it as a form of discipline.
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Sarah - wife to 1 and mommy to 5
http://proverbs-women.org (ladies only)
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 9:39:31 AM
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Tinkerbell_
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What is Wise Words from Mom?
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 9:48:20 AM
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pwfaith
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
What is Wise Words from Mom?
It is like a calendar that has columns, about 4-6 pages long. The first column is the "wrongdoing" (hitting, tattling, lying, disrespect, picking on others, stirring up strife, complaining, etc) The next column has "heart probing" questions. The next column has Reproof (put off) and Encouragement (Put On) bible verses, so not only are you teaching them what the bible says is wrong and why but also what a good behavior is that they need to "put on". Then it has additional verses if you want them. I have used it to talk to my older ones to open communication up about things and then picked one of the verses (shortened usually) and made them write it for me 5 times or something like that.
Most local Christian bookstores should carry it but if not Christian Book Distributors has it for less than $4. And you can view a few of the pages on there http://www.christianbook.com/wise-words-for-moms/ginger-plowman/9780966378665/pd/78660?item_code=WW&netp_id=314679&event=ESRCN&view=details#curr
_____________________________
Sarah - wife to 1 and mommy to 5
http://proverbs-women.org (ladies only)
http://www.debateandrelate.com
http://www.swagbucks.com/refer/pwfaith
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 9:49:55 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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Nope, I don't yell, I don't become passive aggressive, nor do I sweetly call my child brat or any other name. I have yelled once at my dd because she fell down the stairs. I didn't yell at her exactly but because she was falling and I was scared. It terrified her, my yelling more than the falling.
I came into parenting knowing that I came from a line of abusive parents. The abuse was mental, emotional, and physical. Becoming a parent for me was something I took extremely seriously. I am determined to be the pivot parent, the person in the chain that stops the abuse and raises my children in a loving Christian home. I am not saying that those of you who are spanking are abusing. I am just sharing the why I think I keep control of my emotions. I went through years of therapy to deal with my own issues and break that chain. I have practiced, role played, thought out scenarios. Does that mean I will never slip? Absolutely not. But becoming a parent was the most deliberate choice of my life. It was years in the making.
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Karen
Proud Member of the Imperfect Wives' Club
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 9:56:32 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
It might be good to use different words. It seems that you equate gentle parenting with permissive parenting. They are really not the same. Just because I don't spank doesn't mean I trot after my kids with a sugary voice saying, "Now honey, that is making a bad choice. Now sweetie, don't do that. Come back to mommy. Baby girl don't hit your brother with a bat. Now that is not a good choice." There is a whole world of parenting out there between the two. (Spanking and permissive)
No, non-spanking parents aren't necessarily permissive, though I've known a lot of non-spankers parents who act like you just described.
_____________________________
Well behaved women rarely make the history books.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 10:03:46 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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I would say it is probably not good to make an assumption on either side. To categorize all spankers as this way and all nonspankers as that way, does us all a disservice. What I see is this, many parents if not most tend to either be permissive or more to the point, just don't seem to have the energy or desire to engage enough with their children to guide, teach, train, what have you. I am talking about the world at large not just Christian parents. I believe that the world of you must have two salries, must have brand new cars, McManions, my kids MUST have designer clothes to fit in, etc has taken us away from priorities that really matter and put them in the world of fleeting materialism. What I see each day is so many parents not really interested in parenting. That is the biggest problem of all.
Example, I was at the zoo and a boy about 11 years old was hurling snow balls at one of the elephants. His father was standing there saying in a disinterested flat voice, "Now that's not a good choice. You are not making good choices." I turned around and said, "You see that sign there that says if you see anyone harassing the animals to call that number? If you throw one more thing, I am going to make a good choice and call that number and have you kicked out." Surprisinlyg, son made a good choice and walked on with his head down.
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Karen
Proud Member of the Imperfect Wives' Club
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 10:05:05 AM
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pwfaith
Posts: 174
Joined: 3/18/2010
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Nope, I don't yell, I don't become passive aggressive, nor do I sweetly call my child brat or any other name. I have yelled once at my dd because she fell down the stairs. I didn't yell at her exactly but because she was falling and I was scared. It terrified her, my yelling more than the falling.
I came into parenting knowing that I came from a line of abusive parents. The abuse was mental, emotional, and physical. Becoming a parent for me was something I took extremely seriously. I am determined to be the pivot parent, the person in the chain that stops the abuse and raises my children in a loving Christian home. I am not saying that those of you who are spanking are abusing. I am just sharing the why I think I keep control of my emotions. I went through years of therapy to deal with my own issues and break that chain. I have practiced, role played, thought out scenarios. Does that mean I will never slip? Absolutely not. But becoming a parent was the most deliberate choice of my life. It was years in the making.
I am so sorry for what you went through growing up. I can't even being to imagine. I can fully understand choosing not to spank and I think it's fantastic you are deliberate about not continuing the abuse! I think the bolded is so very important here. Really I do. I like the first person I quoted above. It is not biblically something we HAVE to do but it is not biblically forbidden either. What matters most, with ANY form of discipline, imo, is how we use it. Any discipline can be misused and unfortunately in our society today we see too much of that. But obviously that doesn't mean that everyone misuses those forms of discipline simply b/c others have, kwim? That's what I think is important. Intent, attitude, anger, etc all those things need to be taken into account. A child can be put in time out and it can be abusive if done to the extreme (constantly, locked away in a room, denied basic needs, long periods of time, etc). Obviously that doesn't mean everyone who uses time outs does it to that extreme.
I think it's great for people to recognize their own weaknesses, I also try to and then try to watch myself with those forms of discipline or know my "breaking points" and don't use certain forms of discipline if I know I'm there at my breaking point. There is nothing that says we HAVE to spank and also nothing that forbids it, what matters most is what is in our heart when we are disciplining our children. God knows and so do we :)
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Sarah - wife to 1 and mommy to 5
http://proverbs-women.org (ladies only)
http://www.debateandrelate.com
http://www.swagbucks.com/refer/pwfaith
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