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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 2:29:48 PM
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Sideways
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Wow. If your daughter falling down the stairs is the only time you've ever raised your voice to her, then you're doing extremely well. I raise my voice a lot, but I don't know if I'd call it screaming. I have screamed under extreme circumstances, like when Nathan started to run into the street and I wasn't close to him.
I spanked him, too.
How do those who don't raise their voice and don't spank handle things like going into the street? My neighbors are constantly running after their kids, pulling them off the street and gently chiding them for going towards the street. They live in fear because their kids run out there at least several times every time they bring them out (and strangely enough aren't outside playing very often).
Nathan has tried the street once in the last 18 months. Beth is only 14 months, but so far she's only tried it once, and at her age I don't really spank, per se.
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Well behaved women rarely make the history books.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 2:48:22 PM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Wow. If your daughter falling down the stairs is the only time you've ever raised your voice to her, then you're doing extremely well. I raise my voice a lot, but I don't know if I'd call it screaming. I have screamed under extreme circumstances, like when Nathan started to run into the street and I wasn't close to him.
I spanked him, too.
How do those who don't raise their voice and don't spank handle things like going into the street? My neighbors are constantly running after their kids, pulling them off the street and gently chiding them for going towards the street. They live in fear because their kids run out there at least several times every time they bring them out (and strangely enough aren't outside playing very often).
Yelling and screaming are for warning or calling from a distance. When a person screams, it is supposed to bring people running to aid them. When a person yells, it is to warn someone of danger so they will be aware of the danger and stop or be averted. These are useful and good when used appropriately. Yelling to you (not at) your child when he is in danger or screaming if you need emergent help are both appropriate and right. Yelling when you are angry at your child is not the same thing at all. The reason these things are difficult to grasp is that people often do not make the distinction that some things are appropriate at one time, but not at another. It's like honking your horn. You don't go around honking just because you don't want to share the lane or you are angry. You honk to warn other drivers of danger.
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Isaiah 30:21
Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”
Vistit my blog: http://livingcommentaries.blogspot.com/
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 3:08:53 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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I would yell if I saw Hannah running out into the street. But we have practiced and practiced (and practiced) staying with mommy when we are not in "free" zones (play ground or any area I don't mind her running free) We consistently hold hands in parking lots, crossing streets,etc.
One the greatest tools I use with Hannah is one that I started when she was 6 months old. When she started fighting her diaper I would put one hand on her chest and one on her legs and say "No, this is how we lie still." in a firm voice. When she went still, I started again. I started and stopped as many times as it took for her to lie still for a diaper. It took a couple of weeks and a 84,000 times (or maybe it just felt like it) but it worked. Even now she was fuss and moan about getting her diaper changed, at 2, but she will not move. The first time she started to go in a dangerous situation I said in a firm voice, "Hannah still!" To my amazement, she stopped dead in her tracks.
For the most part, I follow a very playful parenting and gentle discipline approach. We make games out of cleaning up or doing things that I need/ want her to do. We have fun. I use a firm voice very rarely so when I do, it really gets her attention.
Ruth, the truth is I am a natural born, or more likely created screamer. I grew up with it. It was normal. I can tell you from experience it was horrible to me. Yet when I married, I screamed. My husband helped me train myself out of it. I am not saying he trained me, I did it. He would not talk with me if I screamed. After slowly learning to get better control of myself, I saw myself for what I was, I was my mother. It really scared me. It shook me to the core. I don't want to do that to my kids.
That time was the only time I have screamed or raised my voice to my children. I am not saying it won't happen again but I fight hard that it won't. I have learned to take mommy time outs. When things are building up I will get away even if it means putting on a dvd for the kids and stepping outside into the cold.
I have found, for me, that it is truly a priority I can overcome whatever bad habit it is. But I fight it like a battle. I pray about it, put up reminders all over the house, find scripture, talk about it to get to the root, bottom line I throw everything at it to make the change. It has been successful. I am not saying it will never fail. Like I said before, my nature is a screamer, a manipulatore, a perfectionist, even a bully, (oh I could list my failings but I am having a good day and want to continue it  ) I have slowly and methodically retrained mself to not fall back on those habits. I hope that God has changed my nature. I believe that He can and truthfully some of those default traits do seem to be gone. But like an alchoholic or anyone else fighting such a battle, I take it one day and one prayer at a time.
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Karen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 4:08:49 PM
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Sideways
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I don't know if I would say that I yell at my children (or not terribly often), but I will raise my voice above my natural speaking volume. Nathan is a day dreamer, and he needs to know that I am serious and that I need his attention. I'm perfectly ok with doing that, and Nathan knows that he is loved.
I just see in my neighborhood folks who can't even use the front yard they have in peace, because their kid has no consequences for running into the street. My kids love our front yard, but they have consequences for getting into the street. dH and I believe in treating our kids respectfully. We will ask Nathan "Please clean up that mess you helped make." We're not nasty about it, but it is a command. Not everything is a funny game or what not.
But with your background Karen, I can understand why you would make the parenting choices that you have, and it sounds like they are working well for you. I think it's fine if other parents have different styles then me. Everyone has to do what works for them. Of course, the last time I spoke about parenting Nathan, I had a certain poster cross over into facebook about how she was so glad she was a gentle parent and she couldn't believe the things some people tried to discipline out of their child.  Thanks.
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Well behaved women rarely make the history books.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 4:39:28 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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I am really sorry someone came at you on FB, or anywhere really. That isn't right. My background does play a part in it but the method we use works it really does. I think it would work for anyone but since I am not everyone I can't make that judgemnet. Did that make sense.
I have a different parenting philosophy than many. I am not focused on first time obedience. I am more interested in the heart issues. I am willing to come along side Hannah to help her clean up or whatever it is that I ask her to do. I am comfortable with making some allowances for develpmental stages that may seem to be a problem. For example, when Hannah tells me no or exerts her independence, I believe it is necessary for her as she views herself as an individual and is testing those boundaries. But, and I know this is hard to differientiate, I am not permissive. I believe very strongly in discipline but some things I just let go. For us, rather than causing her to act out more, letting some things go takes away their power and she naturally drops them.
Hannah is a very focused child. At two years old she will easily paint for over an hour. Instead of raising my voice to get her attention, I go over to her and gently touch her to get her attention. As far as not running out into the road or respecting boundaries, again we have praciticed, practiced, practiced. We go on walks and for a very long time she had to hold my hand even on the sidewalk. Now she is free to walk beside me or even in front of me. She knows if she tried to go out into the road she will have to hold my hand. If she throws a fight we immediately go inside and the walk is over. Curtailing her freedom is the consequence.
As far as life not all being fun and games, well that is perspective. Most of my life is fun, I make it that way. So for usm so much of life is fun and joyful. We laugh and play doing our every day chores.
The way I parent is very comfortable to me. It feels very natural and very organic. Punitive parenting, to me, puts many families into a parents vs kids mentality. I see myself as my children's teacher and guide. What speaks volumes to me is that many families I know that spank seem to battle unwanted behaviors much longer than we do. They also seem to be more frustrated and combative with their children. They see their children's behaviors as a personal affront rather than the struggles and pitfalls that come with a child growing up.
I am not saying all families that spank are like this but the one's I know, which are many, seem to follow that pattern.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 6:51:28 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
I see myself as my children's teacher and guide. What speaks volumes to me is that many families I know that spank seem to battle unwanted behaviors much longer than we do. They also seem to be more frustrated and combative with their children. They see their children's behaviors as a personal affront rather than the struggles and pitfalls that come with a child growing up.
I see this among 'gentle' moms, though, as well. A *lot* of frustration, bad feelings, ongoing behavior issues like biting, hitting, disrespect, etc. I think it's not spanking or non spanking that's the crux of the matter.
As a family where spanking happens, we too are primarily concerned with heart issues.  First time obedience is part of the process of dealing with heart issues, not an alternative or a way to avoid them.
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 Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 7:58:51 PM
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Sideways
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I'm with Maggie. I think we are more alike then we are different, Karen.
I help Nathan pick up his toys, and I allow for age and maturity. I am his teacher, but I am also his authority, given by God. We are concerned with his heart, mind and soul. Spanking is actually rather rare here, and generally reserved for the worst offenses, not a "last resort". Have I ever been angry when I spanked? Yes. Did I ever mis-handle a discipline situation? Yes. I'm not perfect, but overall I think we're doing ok.
I also see a lot of frustration with gentle parents, as I noticed in my front yard example. I think both styles can work for many children, but spanking is a terrible idea for some and the only thing that works with others. My niece was a real terror at the age of 2, very intelligent, strong willed and insanely stubborn. He parents were gentle, and it didn't work. They were patient and kind and ultimately the only thing that got through to her was putting her over the knee and applying some pain to her rear. But the spankings got more and more rare, and I doubt she gets them now at all. She's a good kid.
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Well behaved women rarely make the history books.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 8:48:54 PM
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KaptZ
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I think my wife and I have spanking on the table as a absolute last resort and so far we haven't felt the need to use it yet.
Our oldest is only 2 1/2 so we still have a long way to go.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 8:50:17 PM
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Sideways
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Guys, I appreciate the support, but I don't want to get this thread to far off track, and I apologize for bringing up a prior hurt.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 9:44:33 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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I'll bring it back around. Ruth, I wouldn't consider your neighbors gentle discipline parents but permissive parents. As I said above, I am a big believer in discipline but not spanking. If Hannah ran into the road out of our yard, we would immediately go into the house. For something so dangerous there would be no warning. Hannah loves being outside so this would be a huge consequence. Tonight after pictures, she threw a tantrum. I calmly finished what I was doing and walked her out of the store. I smiled at the staring people. Her behavior doesn't really upset me. I am usually fairly well read with her developmental stage and I have reasonable expectations.
Maggie, I have no doubt that you are very concerned with the heart issues of your children. Your posts attest to the love and care you have for your children. However, the majority of parents' I know that demand first time obedience seem to be more interested in control. I am trying to put this the right way. It seems the at they are more interested in the idea of "I am the parent and you will obey me immediately" rather than dealing with the heart of their child and trying to guide them.
Many of the families I know that spank are looking for a textbook approach of how to raise children that won't embarrass them, look nice for company, don't cause any problems, and will somehow guarantee their (the children's) salvation. I am not saying that any of you are like that. It is my experience.
I have to say, and this may not make me very popular, I do not think it is ever okay to hit a child in anger. That is when things can go very, very wrong. It is better, in my opinion, to walk out of your house and skip that discipline session. To me, if I cannot control myself then how can I expect my two year old to control herself.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 10:56:59 PM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
I have to say, and this may not make me very popular, I do not think it is ever okay to hit a child in anger. That is when things can go very, very wrong. It is better, in my opinion, to walk out of your house and skip that discipline session. To me, if I cannot control myself then how can I expect my two year old to control herself.
I think we would all agree that it is wrong to strike a child in anger.
_____________________________
Isaiah 30:21
Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”
Vistit my blog: http://livingcommentaries.blogspot.com/
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 11:31:09 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
Ruth, I wouldn't consider your neighbors gentle discipline parents but permissive parents.
YUP...I totally agree.
If it were me, and our kids were outside..and IF we didn't spank (though we do, esp for safety related issues)...I think a natural consequence for running out into the street might be to have to be seated (time out), or to have to be on a leash/rope of some kind. I am not talking like a collar and leash like a dog, but more like a harness and leash that is made for kids. I know some people really hate them, but when a kid is going to continually make unsafe decisions, or when the parent can't drop everything (namely, other smaller kids), and run after said kid, it could save their life. If can effectively be used as a tool in training little ones that are just not getting it in words. I don't think I would go back in just because a kid ran out into the road. I would stay out there a bit longer, even if it was just so they could sit and watch what they were missing. I think just immediately going in could be a signal to the kid that they got results, so if they don't want to stay out in the future they may think that running out into the road worked before, so they would do it again. I would much rather my kid have to sit there and see what they are missing before we go on to the next item on the list of things to do that day. If the offense took place outside, I think the punishment needs to take place outside.
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"God spreads grace like a 4 year old spreads peanut butter. He gets it all over everything!" ~Mark Lowry
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 7:35:02 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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Peculiar_lady, with some children I would agree with you but my Hannah would live outside no matter what the weather. So for HER, going inside immediately is the worst consequence. It also very quickly taught her to not go into the street and to listen to momma (mama or papa) when she went out on a walk.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 7:57:39 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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quote:
I think we would all agree that it is wrong to strike a child in anger.
All agree in theory bot not all agree in practice. I have spoken to a disturbing amount of peoplewho admit to spanking while very angry and it affected them. However, many justify it or excuse it by saying that they are only human or that we all make mistakes so what are you going to do? My response to what are you going to do is to not spank when you are angry. That is often met with bafflement.
One of my biggest problems with a puntitive approach to parenting is that it demands of our kids what we cannot do every time ourselves. First time obedience is not something I am always good at. Throw in the parents that demand it be cheerful as well and I would fail alot. To demand my preschooler always be control of herself and her feelings, no tantrums or getting emotionally a bit out of cotnrol, would be hypocrisy to the nth degree for me. I am not perfect or some days even very good at that. I fail alot. God treats me gentle and with a huge amount of grace and mercy. I choose to the same for my children. Again, I do not let them run wild but I redirect and lovingly help them deal with emotions. I use a ton of natural consequences.
Many people see non spanking as permissive and therefore lazy parenting. My parenting is anything but. I spend much of my day stopping what I am doing to go over to my child, get down on there level, and deal with it there. Some people don't want to do it but it really does work.
As far as only spanking in dangerous situations, I don't think it is any more effective than other parenting methods. I know parents who have spanked again and again for running out in the street or not obeying immediately for a danger situation. Some of the kids respond but others don't. It depends on the kid. The hard headed kids have to be watched more carefully or put on a baby leash for a time if they don't respond to correction, whether you spank or not.
I do not see it necessary to inflict pain on my child to correct their behavior. I am not sure if I am okay with spanking done "right", calmly spanking and not in anger. But after talking to many, many people, I find that more than I would have ever guessed spanked in anger and took it "too far'. That is their own words in hindsight. That is not acceptable to me. Not at all. I spoke to several who speak of it with sadness and regret and say that if they had to it to do all over again they would not spank. That was very telling to me.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 9:17:01 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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Thank you Maggie. It probably is alot of perspective. I have a feeling that you and I are raising our children in many of the same ways with the same heart issues and goals firmly placed in the line of sight.
I think I am just heartsick over some things I have been seeing. There have been a couple of things happen in my life especially with my church that has caused me to dig around and questioned alot of people on there beliefs and practices. I don't mean question as judging but personal conversations. It has led me to wonder how many people even like their children. They seem to take it so personally and it is all about them. If their children has a tantrum or doesn't behave to the level of expectation their parents have arbitrarily placed upon them, then it is all about the parents and how they feel and how they are embarrassed etc. I find it selfish. I really do.
It appears that many of these parents punish more out of retribution (he embarrassed me, he didn't appreciate what I did, he was inconvienient, etc.) than trying to teach and guide into proper behaviors. Because my daughter is 2, I am often around the preschool set. It makes me sick to see children so heavily punished for normal, age appropriate behaviors. I am not saying that these behaviors should be allowed to flourish unchecked but have some grace. I know a couple that spanks when their 2 year old tells them "no" because it is defiance. It wasn't too long ago that Hannah told me no for everything, including when she meant yes. She was learning she had choices and she could exert control over her life. Far from being a bad thing, this is a good thing. This leads to the ability to make decisions later on in life.
I am seeing more and more people that want their children to obey on the surface and above all, do not embarrass them in public. These children could be brimming with rebellion in the heart or cowed into submission from fear of retribution. Neither are going to grow up to be healthy adults.
Understanding your child is key to caring for them. Last night, Hannah threw a raging fit in Target after getting pictures. Oh my the people that stared as I calmly walked her out.  I smiled at them, waved at a few. They quickly looked away. Taking care of Hannah was far more important than caring what people who didn't know me thought. You see, I know where Hannah is at. Not only is she two, which is just an adventurous roller coaster ride in itself, but she is also having eating problems. I am not sure if her texture issues are getting worse or what but she is refusing to eat more and more. The result is that her blood sugar drops and she becomes impossible. When I can finally get some food in her she is a sweet and lovely little girl. Last night afterwards, she threw herself in my arms and said, "Mommy I sorry I sad." It melted my heart. I have an appt with the dr on Monday to figure out a solution if we can or maybe go to OT. Anyway, if I had let myself be embarrassed or frustrated because the whole thing was inconvenient, then I would have punished her for something she really has no control over. I have blood sugar issues myself so I understand the out of control feeling and I am an adult.
Long story short, I am heartsick becuase I discover each day that more parents view their children with frustration and impatience rather than love, compassion, and mercy. When you mix that in with spanking, bad things happen.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 9:34:09 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Long story short, I am heartsick becuase I discover each day that more parents view their children with frustration and impatience rather than love, compassion, and mercy. When you mix that in with spanking, bad things happen.
I think it is very sad too. Seeing that was far and away more hurtful to me than seeing happily pregnant women, after I lost my babies last year. 
But again, that is an extreme, and the extreme the other way can result in bad things too. Some parents abuse, others completely ignore and neglect, for essentially the same reasons and both can have tragic consequences. Either way, it is the heart's attitude that is the problem, not the method of discipline.
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Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 10:11:06 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
It appears that many of these parents punish more out of retribution (he embarrassed me, he didn't appreciate what I did, he was inconvienient, etc.) than trying to teach and guide into proper behaviors.
It might seem that way to you, but many of us who punish our children don't see it that way. We have emotional reactions just like anyone else, and we're not perfect, but I teach obedience because I believe it's what right, not because I want to look good in public.
I show grace to my son. I don't expect instant perfection. I give second chances. I use natural consequences a lot, as well. So, I think your perspective of spanking parents might be a bit affected by a few bad parents or by your own upbringing.
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Well behaved women rarely make the history books.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 10:11:58 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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Selfishness isn't extreme. It is all over the place. I totally agree with you about that and it bugs me.
But I think parents damaging their children through abusive spanking, or through uncaring neglect of discipline, are in the extreme, and not the majority. Even anti-spanking parents can "snap" out of anger or frustration, and spank. I frequent a gentle discipline board and it is not uncommon to see posts like "Please don't flame me.....I spanked my kid...I know I'm horrible scum of the earth but he just got to me after gentle discipline didn't work and I finally couldn't take it anymore" and on the other side of that, I mentioned a while back the local woman who completely ignored her children for *hours* while they misbehaved (and neighbors testified this was ongoing) and one of them died from falling out a window in their apartment.
It really is the out of control emotions in the parent, that leads to abuse, not spanking in itself. I think it's also possible that some cultures or subcultures combine the worst of humanity's vices with discipline practices, so if you're doing things against the norm, it can feel like the whole world is that way.
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Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 10:24:15 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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quote:
It really is the out of control emotions in the parent, that leads to abuse, not spanking in itself. I think it's also possible that some cultures or subcultures combine the worst of humanity's vices with discipline practices, so if you're doing things against the norm, it can feel like the whole world is that way.
Now that is something to think about. It does feel like I am swimming upstream many days.
quote:
It might seem that way to you, but many of us who punish our children don't see it that way. We have emotional reactions just like anyone else, and we're not perfect, but I teach obedience because I believe it's what right, not because I want to look good in public.
I show grace to my son. I don't expect instant perfection. I give second chances. I use natural consequences a lot, as well. So, I think your perspective of spanking parents might be a bit affected by a few bad parents or by your own upbringing.
I am sorry but I have to disagree with you Ruth. Not about you, I don't know you so I don't claim to be the expert on how you parent. But the conversations and research I have been doing is based on long conversations with a wide variety of people. I have a talent at reading body language and emotions. Then there are the out and out admissions of I spanked because "I was embarrasses and I wanted everyone to think I was an effective parent." These are not "bad" parents. They made mistakes. But I still don't think that losing control of your emotions and everybody else does is a legitimate excuse. Just because it is a good person doing a bad thing doesn't make it okay. It is possible to be master of your emotions for 99.99999999% of the time.
You keep bringing up my upbringing. I did come from an abusive home. My mother was mentally unstable. It doesn't affect me as much as you would think. I went through alot of therapy for it. It took years to deal with my issues. My parents and I now have a wonderful relationship. God healed me, them, us. It can happen. I am much more at peace with it that you can imagine. I would prefer that my views not be dismissed because of perceived damage from an abusive backgroud.
Also, I teach obedience as well but I teach it without inflicting physical pain on my children.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 10:24:29 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2125
Joined: 4/12/2005
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lol. I'm agreeing with two people who I often differ with today, on both sides of a debate.
quote:
It might seem that way to you, but many of us who punish our children don't see it that way. We have emotional reactions just like anyone else, and we're not perfect, but I teach obedience because I believe it's what right, not because I want to look good in public.
This as well. I think we all discipline because we believe good character, self-restraint, emotional continence, etc is really important for our children in order to succeed as adults, not to mention part of obeying and glorifying God. How we go about imparting this differs, but it's no less important for those who use spanking (appropriately use it, of course). I would rather my children understand in childhood that injuring others, dangerous behavior, disrespect always have negative consequences, often severe ones, than have them learn by ending up in jail or losing a good job.
I know that is a desire of gentle discipline parents as well.  I'm not saying it isn't. But the above is an explanation of why spanking is part of our discipline, and that it is not "You annoy me, shut up or I will hit you". Does that make sense?
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Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 10:27:47 AM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 241
Joined: 11/21/2007
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quote:
I know that is a desire of gentle discipline parents as well. I'm not saying it isn't. But the above is an explanation of why spanking is part of our discipline, and that it is not "You annoy me, shut up or I will hit you". Does that make sense?
I do understand where you are coming from but I think that you are in the minority. I think many parents spank not as a well thought out discipline action plan but because there children pushed then too far. I will say again, if you have hit your child in anger you really need to consider if you have the self control to spank.
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Karen
Proud Member of the Imperfect Wives' Club
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My mom did ok with it but it drove my dad and some of my teachers nuts.