RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/12/2010 11:33:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PastorSteveMT

Forgive me for not having the time...and frankly the desire to sort through 536 pages of text to see if my question has been answered. And it probably has been a dozen times. Anyway.

I'm trying to get my head around a few things so if anyone who holds to the camp that any remarriage is adultery could please address this it would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to say that there is no sarcasm or alterior motive in anything I say here. To be honest, I'm in a place of inner turmoil about this issue and I'm looking for clarification from God. So, on to my questions:

1) If a person divorces and remarries, do they go to hell? Are they giving up their salvation? Are they showing they were never saved to begin with? THE BOTTOM LINE QUESTION: DO THEY GO TO HELL?

2) If the answer is "Yes, they will go to hell", then what is the requirement in order to avoid hell? Can they avoid hell? Must they get a divorce from their current spouse in order to avoid hell? If they seek the Lord's face and ask for forgiveness for their adultery, are they forgiven or must they still get a divorce in order to get their salvation back?

3) If they answer is "No, they will not go to hell", then can it be said that divorce and remarriage is not a sin? Is it that they will not go to hell as long as they repent?


To those that say that MDR is ok, and to those that point to the Scripture where Jesus "recognizes" the womans 5 marriages, where do he tell her that it is ok or not a sin? Just because Jesus recognizes something, doesn't mean that it ISN'T sin does it?

I look forward to your responses.



There is a small fringe group (well represented in this thread) who believe those who have remarried will go to hell unless they divorce or their former spouse dies before they do. They tend to be very evasive about defining their beliefs and getting them to commit in writing is quite difficult. Here is the results of the attempts I have made so far; the last question I asked still remains unanswered by any of those holding to this belief system. A quick review of their entire beliefs will quickly show that it lies outside of Christian orthodoxy.

Within orthodox Christian beliefs there is a wide range of opinions about divorce and remarriage. On the extreme ends of the spectrum are the views of people like John Piper, who believes all remarriages are sinful in every circumstance, and David Instone-Brewer who believes that divorce ends all marriages and remarriage is always acceptable. While both of these extremes recognize divorce in many or all situations as sinful, neither of these extremes makes remarriage into an unforgivable sin that requires divorce as a means of repentance. While I personally do believe Scripture allows for remarriage in some circumstances i.e. those described in Mt. 5 and 19 (sexual infidelity) and in 1 Cor. 7 (abandonment by an unbelieving spouse), I personally tend to lean much closer to Piper's views; however, I do believe that divorce and remarriage is sinful in most but not every circumstance i.e. I believe that divorce doesn't in and of itself end a covenant before God and that reconciliation should almost always be the goal (even after a divorce). While there are some circumstances where sexual infidelity is so egregious that it truly ends a marriage, I do not believe that every act of sexual infidelity automatically ends a marriage covenant. I do believe that remarriage ALWAYS breaks an previous marriage covenant beyond the point of even permitting reconciliation and to pursue reconciliation with a ex-spouse who has remarried is itself sinful (even to communicate that you are waiting to reconcile with them is sinful) Duet 24:1-4. I believe that choosing to divorce while in a second marriage is just a sinful as choosing to divorce in a first marriage, and while those who remarried in sin do need to repent, divorce is never a means of repentance. While I do understand the reasons for the more "grace filled" views of those like David Instone-Brewer, I don't believe they truly address the heart issues Jesus addressed in his dialog about divorce.


In cases where someone has chosen to sinfully divorce, or remarry, or both



car2nist -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/12/2010 2:01:18 PM)

Responders have to be careful about the answering the "will they go to hell" question. I believe it goes against the terms of service.



benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/12/2010 2:09:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: car2ner

Responders have to be careful about the answering the "will they go to hell" question. I believe it goes against the terms of service.


Maybe that is the ones thaqt infer this position soooooo evasive in answering questions about their beliefs.



Crushmaster -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/12/2010 7:50:43 PM)

quote:

benelchi

So, do you believe it is possible for someone who dies while remarried and their ex-spouse is still living to have been saved,

Yes.
quote:

benelchi

or do you believe all who die in this circumstance were never saved and will go to hell?

No.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.



danw78 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/13/2010 1:07:11 AM)

This topic is obviously sensitive to many readers and posters for various reasons, and so it is important that whatever is posted should be posted in love, even if you wish to convey a truth as far as you see it.

I am sure we will all agree that when searching for the TRUTH, we must go to the word of God.

For those of us that believe the the word of God is absolute Truth, it is then important for us to correctly interpret what we find in the word of God relevant to this topic.

Firstly, I must say that i have not always been a christian. In '97 I got saved, so church culture is still something I am adjusting to even 13 years later.

I guess like Keith Green was in the 1970's, I am kind of disgusted with the state of the church today. Rampant divorce and remarriage is only one of the churches many shameful behaviours. What a terrible testimony to unsaved people we are being. Our divorce rates are no different to that of the worlds.


We must not attach our personal emotional situations to the word of God. Just because our mother or brother or best friend may be in a situation, it should never interefere with what God says in His word and how we interpret what it says.

I am sure by now, we have all read through previous posts, scriptures relevant to marriage and divorce.

My opinion is that I honestly dont know exactly where the line is drawn, but from what i can ascertain so far. I think divorce is only permissble through the guilty party's adultery....and remarriage after that I am still not sure of. By no means am I a legalist or hard nosed or anything like that. I am just wary to do what the Book says, and not to let my will override God's will. I hope those of us that are believers are also willing to sacrifice their will for God's, as that is the price Jesus paid for us.


What is important is not to presume God. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

So if a spouse is divorced and intends to remarry, best to go on what the Jesus says, and to obey it, rather than obey our own lusts and desires.

If it is adultery to remarry, then I hardly think God could make a wrong relationship right. After all, if it was wrong on Day 1, what makes it right on day 501? Would God ever condone a gay marriage, even if it lasted 40 years?

Maybe the word grace could come in these situations, but remember that we are saved by grace through faith. James says quite clearly that we must show our faith by our works. The works dont save us, but the faith shown through the works does.

Grace will only come through our demonstrated faith in God.

Repentance is also a key here. How do we show God that we have repented for getting into a wrong relationship. Asking for forgiveness isnt repentance. Repentance is 'turning away'from the sinful actions. So I actually agree that if a couple recognise that their marriage is adulterous, that they should divorce. After all, I have heard that many spouses would leave if their spouse was unfaithful. Well an adulterous marriage is unfaithful towards God, which I feel is even worse, and in much more need of separation and dealing with.

Many people do not realise that their first marriages were brought together by God. God is actually the third spouse. So for all those who left their first marriage unlawfully, you also divorced the Lord. That's a pretty big deal in my estimation.

Our forefathers paid a huge price when the church was first founded many years ago. Many were martyred for their faith. Our society is so selfish, many of us treat Jesus like a Blessings vending machine, and we think we have all these rights and entitlements. Where has all the reverence gone? As is written, let's be doers of the word and not hearers only',

A warning: many people believe that once we are saved, we can do what we want and still get to heaven. Read Hebrews 10, where it says that if we sin wilfully we can expect a worse punishment than in the times of Moses for breaking the law (which was death by stoning). The reason being is that we are trampling Jesus under our feet and putting Him to an open shame. It says we are also insulting the Spirit of Grace.

Jesus wants our obedience. After all= To obey is better than sacrifice.

This topic is serious, and I think that we have followed the world right down the rabbit hole. Lets stand up for what the word says. Lets be christian not by what we preach, but by what we do.

As I said earlier, I am still not 100% convinced on some of the details surrounding MDR, so if anyone has SCRIPTUAL insights, I am most interested..God Bless ya's.



huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/13/2010 9:28:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: danw78

This topic is obviously sensitive to many readers and posters for various reasons, and so it is important that whatever is posted should be posted in love, even if you wish to convey a truth as far as you see it.

I am sure we will all agree that when searching for the TRUTH, we must go to the word of God.

For those of us that believe the the word of God is absolute Truth, it is then important for us to correctly interpret what we find in the word of God relevant to this topic.

Firstly, I must say that i have not always been a christian. In '97 I got saved, so church culture is still something I am adjusting to even 13 years later.

I guess like Keith Green was in the 1970's, I am kind of disgusted with the state of the church today. Rampant divorce and remarriage is only one of the churches many shameful behaviours. What a terrible testimony to unsaved people we are being. Our divorce rates are no different to that of the worlds.


We must not attach our personal emotional situations to the word of God. Just because our mother or brother or best friend may be in a situation, it should never interefere with what God says in His word and how we interpret what it says.

I am sure by now, we have all read through previous posts, scriptures relevant to marriage and divorce.

My opinion is that I honestly dont know exactly where the line is drawn, but from what i can ascertain so far. I think divorce is only permissble through the guilty party's adultery....and remarriage after that I am still not sure of. By no means am I a legalist or hard nosed or anything like that. I am just wary to do what the Book says, and not to let my will override God's will. I hope those of us that are believers are also willing to sacrifice their will for God's, as that is the price Jesus paid for us.


What is important is not to presume God. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

So if a spouse is divorced and intends to remarry, best to go on what the Jesus says, and to obey it, rather than obey our own lusts and desires.

If it is adultery to remarry, then I hardly think God could make a wrong relationship right. After all, if it was wrong on Day 1, what makes it right on day 501? Would God ever condone a gay marriage, even if it lasted 40 years?

Maybe the word grace could come in these situations, but remember that we are saved by grace through faith. James says quite clearly that we must show our faith by our works. The works dont save us, but the faith shown through the works does.

Grace will only come through our demonstrated faith in God.

Repentance is also a key here. How do we show God that we have repented for getting into a wrong relationship. Asking for forgiveness isnt repentance. Repentance is 'turning away'from the sinful actions. So I actually agree that if a couple recognise that their marriage is adulterous, that they should divorce. After all, I have heard that many spouses would leave if their spouse was unfaithful. Well an adulterous marriage is unfaithful towards God, which I feel is even worse, and in much more need of separation and dealing with.

Many people do not realise that their first marriages were brought together by God. God is actually the third spouse. So for all those who left their first marriage unlawfully, you also divorced the Lord. That's a pretty big deal in my estimation.

Our forefathers paid a huge price when the church was first founded many years ago. Many were martyred for their faith. Our society is so selfish, many of us treat Jesus like a Blessings vending machine, and we think we have all these rights and entitlements. Where has all the reverence gone? As is written, let's be doers of the word and not hearers only',

A warning: many people believe that once we are saved, we can do what we want and still get to heaven. Read Hebrews 10, where it says that if we sin wilfully we can expect a worse punishment than in the times of Moses for breaking the law (which was death by stoning). The reason being is that we are trampling Jesus under our feet and putting Him to an open shame. It says we are also insulting the Spirit of Grace.

Jesus wants our obedience. After all= To obey is better than sacrifice.

This topic is serious, and I think that we have followed the world right down the rabbit hole. Lets stand up for what the word says. Lets be christian not by what we preach, but by what we do.

As I said earlier, I am still not 100% convinced on some of the details surrounding MDR, so if anyone has SCRIPTUAL insights, I am most interested..God Bless ya's.


Heb.13:4 Marriage is honorable ... as your post defends ... well done.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.


huckfinn



rrich1 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/27/2010 2:27:51 AM)

I think your wrong. I do not think that God would have us stay in very violent abusive relationships.

I was in one. I tried everything. I prayed help to save my marraige at first. Toward the last I was praying deliver me from this terrible hell I am in.

The church found out. The pastor came with money to help me to get to a safe place with my son.

I am now a non-trad. student at a Christian College. I do not plan on getting remarried. In fact, I would prefer to serve God and not ever a man or a husband again.

In fact, If God wants me to remarry, I believe God is going to have to pick the man up and physically drop him from heaven. Otherwise, I like my freedom to go to church without my husband telling me that I can't, or calling me names when I get back because I went to church.

In God, I am free.

rrich
quote:

ORIGINAL: QueenM

People, even some Christians, are going to do what they want to do anyway. But I believe that the only biblical justification for divorce is when ones spouse commits adultery and is unrepentant, or when an unbeliever chooses to leave. And in both cases, yes I believe that remarriage is okay.

If someone were divorced for the above two reasons, then yes, they should be allowed to serve in any and all levels of the church. However, if their divorce was not because of the above, I believe that roles as Pastor, Deacon or Elder should be left voluntarily unpursued.



gmcspice -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/27/2010 9:22:16 AM)

quote:

Heb.13:4 Marriage is honorable ... as your post defends ... well done.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.


huckfinn


Yes, marriage according to God's standard of it is honorable. Where a man is God fearing and follows God and allows God to lead and he obeys God in everything he does. Where he loves his wife as God commands.
Where the wife is submissive to the husband and respects him and is a Godly wife and living as God would have her live. And you should stay in a marriage like this pray and make it work.

But we aren't talking about marriages like this.
We are talking about where one spouse cheats on the other. If they say they are Christian, this sure ISN'T displaying faith in God now is it?
Where one spouse beats the other to a pulp where you can't even recognize their face. That isn't showing faith in God either.
Where one spouse rapes or molests their child, etc.
And any of these can and probably are influenced by some type of drug or alcohol abuse. OR the person is just probably evil on the inside because it takes that to do such horrific things like this.
All of these are considered fornication against God.
Look up what God's definition of fornication is and you will find out that anything a person places before God is an idol and there for it is a false god and that person is worshiping it instead of God. They aren't just fornicating against their spouse, THEY ARE FORNICATING AGAINST GOD!
These things are NOT for God they are against God. And God does not allow things like this to continually happen to his children.

Huck, Divorce is a real thing created by God. ALL things are created by God. The Bible says so.
God divorced Israel for these horrific things. God will not and does not want his children to e in situations like this. And he will give a way out if it is asked for. He will provide a spouse of HIS choosing too if the person prays for it.
His word says if we are obedient to HIM, he will give us the desires of our heart. And since God DOES allow for divorce, he will bless the one who asks for a marriage that is for God himself.

I agree with benelchi. Your "no divorce" doctrine false according to God's word. I have not seen any scripture to support your point of view. Unless you want to count all the scripture that you have cherry picked or posted out of context.



Kath -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/27/2010 3:46:35 PM)

ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE

To everyone,

The purpose of this thread is to dicuss the TOPIC of divorce.

It is NOT for the purpose of discussing YOUR divorce.

We have found that people who post with statements like, "so because I divorced my spouse I am now forever a sinner and never to be forgiven?" are opening themselves up to being hurt or hurting someone else.

If you are not able to participate in this topic without discussing the experience of YOUR divorce then we must request that you stay out of the thread.

Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.

Thank you for your attention, understanding, and cooperation.

Please do not reply to this message within the Community.

Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.

Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.



RYNODOG -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/28/2010 8:19:22 PM)

quote:

Forgive me for not having the time...and frankly the desire to sort through 536 pages of text to see if my question has been answered. And it probably has been a dozen times. Anyway.

I'm trying to get my head around a few things so if anyone who holds to the camp that any remarriage is adultery could please address this it would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to say that there is no sarcasm or alterior motive in anything I say here. To be honest, I'm in a place of inner turmoil about this issue and I'm looking for clarification from God. So, on to my questions:

2) If the answer is "Yes, they will go to hell", then what is the requirement in order to avoid hell? Can they avoid hell? Must they get a divorce from their current spouse in order to avoid hell? If they seek the L
quote:

1) If a person divorces and remarries, do they go to hell? Are they giving up their salvation? Are they showing they were never saved to begin with? THE BOTTOM LINE QUESTION: DO THEY GO TO HELL?
ord's face and ask for forgiveness for their adultery, are they forgiven or must they still get a divorce in order to get their salvation back?

3) If they answer is "No, they will not go to hell", then can it be said that divorce and remarriage is not a sin? Is it that they will not go to hell as long as they repent?


To those that say that MDR is ok, and to those that point to the Scripture where Jesus "recognizes" the womans 5 marriages, where do he tell her that it is ok or not a sin? Just because Jesus recognizes something, doesn't mean that it ISN'T sin does it?

I look forward to your responses.


Hey Pastor,
You likely know the scriptures a hundred times better than I do but let me give you a little attempt at answering what seem to be your sincere questions.
All of us may or may not be going to heaven. It doesn't seem that repenting of any one particular sin automatically gives us a free ride to heaven. IF remarriage is adultery (as Jesus tells us in Mark, Luke and Matthew) and IF adulterers do not inherit eternal life (as Paul tells us in his letter to the Corinthians) then, unless they were wrong, or missing something, I would want to repent of any adulterous relationship. This seems to include remarriage (unless Benelchi and many others interpretations of Matthew 5 and 19 and 1st Corinthians 7 are correct.) Who first interpretted it the way that they do? That is a question I have asked. The scriptures seem to say that repentance includes forsaking the sin. Ultimately, God will judge whether or not we have repented. Ultimately, any true act of repentance, is done by Christ working through us. Just some thoughts.
What do you think Pastor? Huck and Benelchi and others have made some pretty well thought through statements on here.

I am encouraged by your seeking of Truth in this area. As Peter Kreeft has quipped "Jesus has not recently went into business manufacturing styrofoam millstones!" Speaking Truth on this topic is likely very important! May God Bless you pastor.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING



Isaiah331516 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/30/2010 8:55:12 AM)

dawn78:

well said

Benelchi:

regarding your comment that you haven't gotten clear information from MDR believers. that is simply not true. i and many others have written quite a lot straight from the Word of God on this subject. also, in case you are trying to show error by conparing differences in the views of those who support MDR in order to attempt to weaken its position, consider the following. many, many many not in support of MDR have widely various views in which they, yourself included, express why they believe MDR is not correct. one could quite easily compare the views of those who suggest remarriage is okay to show some apparent weakness in that argument.

the best method of acquiring wisdom:
go to the Word, read it , and pray about it with a sincere and open heart.



Isaiah331516 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/30/2010 9:08:55 AM)

Matthew 5: 31-32
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19: 3-9
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mark 10:2-9
And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mark 10:10-12
And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
(noted seperatedly for Jesus is speaking on the same subject but in a different scene than in Mark 10:2-9)

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


1 Corinthians 7:10-11
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.



benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/30/2010 10:58:53 AM)

quote:

Benelchi:

regarding your comment that you haven't gotten clear information from MDR believers. that is simply not true. i and many others have written quite a lot straight from the Word of God on this subject. also, in case you are trying to show error by conparing differences in the views of those who support MDR in order to attempt to weaken its position, consider the following. many, many many not in support of MDR have widely various views in which they, yourself included, express why they believe MDR is not correct. one could quite easily compare the views of those who suggest remarriage is okay to show some apparent weakness in that argument.


Actually, most who post here that hold to the no-remarriage-ever point of view are hold nearly identical beliefs, they hold up the works of the same authors to support their beliefs, and some even attend the same conferences on divorce and remarriage.

Yes, there are others, like John Piper for example, who believe that remarriage is never an option as I have pointed out many times before; however, his doctrine is very different from what is taught by the no-remarriage-ever sect that regularly posts on this thread.

Isaiah331516, I do have some very serious difficulties with some of the doctrines you have presented, but I would agree that they are distinctly different from the doctrines of the sect I have described.



gmcspice -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/30/2010 11:11:06 AM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: Isaiah331516

Matthew 5: 31-32
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19: 3-9
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.



You ignore that scripture. What does God say fornication is?
You should obey God's definition NOT man's.

quote:

Mark 10:2-9
And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


This means don't let man put is asunder. It doesn't mean CAN'T.

quote:

Mark 10:10-12
And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
(noted seperatedly for Jesus is speaking on the same subject but in a different scene than in Mark 10:2-9)

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


1 Corinthians 7:10-11
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


You forgot
Deuteronomy 24

And why did you omit the rest of 1 Corinthians 7?

Do you believe in no divorce, Isaiah?
If so then WHY did God divorce Israel?
God has given proof, why don't you accept it?
Why do you uphold some scripture but not all on MDR? How can a person take a real stance on this issue but NOT consider all scripture?

You also ignore the woman at the well who had 5 husbands!!!
Did Jesus condemn her? NO! He for gave her and offered her the LIVING WATER!!!!!
How do you explain away these very MDR situations in the Bible?
Benelchi is one of the few that has completely explained what Jesus' stance may be on this issue.
I have seen no other objective biblical stance.



RYNODOG -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/30/2010 1:32:05 PM)

Hey gmcspice, I wish more were as passionate about this topic as you are! What do you believe the Greek term “porneia” used as the exception in Matthew’s gospel was meant to describe? Why was it left out of Mark and Luke’s gospels?
quote:

Mark 10:2-9
And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


quote:

This means don't let man put is asunder. It doesn't mean CAN'T.

What does “they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh” mean to you? I struggle with making the “man can put it asunder” interpretation fit with this part of the teaching. I know a spouse can divorce according to the laws of the world and perhaps even should put an unrepentant adulterous spouse away, in love. But, does this free the spouse for a “remarriage” that isn’t adultery according to God? If so, who first interpreted Christ’s teaching in that way?
quote:

Mark 10:10-12
And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
(noted seperatedly for Jesus is speaking on the same subject but in a different scene than in Mark 10:2-9)

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


1 Corinthians 7:10-11
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


quote:

You forgot
Deuteronomy 24

Do you believe that all of the permissions of Moses still apply today? Should we stone the adulterer? Should we put to death someone who has been caught stealing? I just struggle with someone throwing Deuteronomy 24 out there as a reason why you could not reconcile with a repentant spouse, however, they will find excuses why the other teachings are not applicable today. I am not sure that you are doing that here though?

quote:

And why did you omit the rest of 1 Corinthians 7?

I am still sorting through this chapter. I just have difficulty accepting that Paul would say, “you know, Jesus said that you commit adultery if you marry someone who has been put away, but you know, I say you are free to remarry for this reason…” Interpreting “no longer bound” to mean “you are free to remarry” seems to make Paul do this to the Lord’s teachings. Do you see it differently?

Was God married to Israel or was He betrothed? Could this fit nicely with the interpretation that porneia in Matthew’s gospel is referring to infidelity within the betrothal period? It just seems to make sense that this teaching be in the Gospels, otherwise wouldn’t people be saying that Joseph was wrong for deciding to “put away” Mary? I am not convinced of this interpretation, but it seems to fit.

quote:

You also ignore the woman at the well who had 5 husbands!!!
Did Jesus condemn her? NO! He for gave her and offered her the LIVING WATER!!!!!

Jesus plainly said that “the man you are with now is not your husband.” Who was her husband? Had four husbands died? Where in this story does John say that Jesus forgave her? I should probably re-read it but I do not remember that anyway.

Gmcspice, I definitely do not claim to be right but these are just the questions that I started to ask of myself when I started to openly consider this topic. I definitely wanted the opportunity to remarry but the totality of the gospel message just didn’t seem to justify it. I pray to be forgiven as I forgive others. How could I “forgive” my wife but close the door to reconciliation with her? Did God close the door to reconciliation with Israel? Will Christ ever take another Bride other than the Church? How could He when the Church is His body?

Anyway, those are just a sample of the questions I have tried to sort through.
May God bless you and the passion that is inside of you.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING



Isaiah331516 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/30/2010 2:54:08 PM)

gmspice,

so you are saying Jesus says to not do something...and your response is that you can still do it if you want to?

anyhow, I did not change anything. i copied and pasted Jesus's words. if you have issue with them...talk to Him. :-)

btw, as rynodog wrote, noting deut 24 as support for current practice over what Jesus says is ...well, chosing to do what Moses allowed over what Jesus said is right and true according to our Father in Heaven. also, the word "may" in deut 24 is accurately translated as "if." this is not a far stretch even for uneducated folk like me because we know that may does not always mean "allowed to" but "might happen."

so deut 24 is read:

1When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
And when she is departed out of his house, if she goes and becomes another man's wife.



RYNODOG -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 9:30:18 AM)

The wisest advise to those of us considering remarriage comes from the most Wonderful Counselor!!! We cannot go wrong reading and re-reading and re-re-reading His advise in Luke 16, Mark 10 and Matthew 19!!!

It is easier to make Christ more us-like than to allow Him to make us more Christ-like.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING



huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 9:38:46 AM)

quote:

to gmspice,

so you are saying Jesus says to not do something...and your response is that you can still do it if you want to?

anyhow, I did not change anything. i copied and pasted Jesus's words. if you have issue with them...talk to Him. :-)


Isaish33,

Yes, you are correct. Be warned: some who post here "play the old shell game" with the prohibition "LET NOT MAN PUT ASUNDER".

The Pharisees question was: Is it LAWFUL for a man to put away his wife? (KEEP THAT IN MIND ... IT IS VERY IMPORTANT). Jesus was answering that "direct" question when He said:

What therefore God hath joined together LET NOT man put asunder. In other words Jesus simply said: It is not LAWFUL to put away a wife.

The Pharisees question would be the same for any of the commandmentS. The commandments say: Thou shalt not kill, commit adultery, or steal ... etc. The fact that these sins can be committed is not the issue ... the issue is they CANNOT BE committed LAWFULLY. Thus: LET NOT man kill. LET NOT man commit adultey. LET NOT man steal ... etc.

Thus the Pharisees question could have been: Is it LAWFUL TO (kill, or to commit adultery, or to steal ... etc.)

Jesus answer would have been: It is NOT LAWFUL (full of the law) to (kill, commit adultey, or to steal ... etc.)

JESUS SAID: LET NOT MAN PUT ASUNDER ... Jesus meant "No it is not lawful to put away a wife."

Mat 19:46 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

With that being said: I find the words "What God hath joined together" ... as He joined together Adam and Eve as a single unit ... "THEY TWAIN SHALL BE ONE FLESH" ... "male and female created he them" and "them is the definition of man) ... this Creation Marriage (man was created married) is FULL OF ABSOLUTE PERMANENCY ... that Jesus also meant that marriage is an organic union (A living single unit) that CANNOT be put asunder this side of death.



gmcspice -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 10:09:39 AM)

Isaiah,
Isn't doing what you want SIN?


I am NOT going against Christ's word and please don't say that I am.
You, Huck and some others are forgetting where you came from. SIN!!!
Sinners do not think like we do. There are some who were married and divorced BEFORE they were saved. Once they are saved, they are forgiven of that sin and they can get remarried as long as the person they marry is Christian.
A person who is Christian married to someone who is NOT and the person who is NOT leaves and divorces, the Christian is not held accountable and can remarry.

Those of you who say no divorce or remarriage EVER ignore plain scripture that says in certain circumstances it is permissible.
You blatantly IGNORE scripture instead of taking in account ALL the scripture about MDR and the components of it. It is sad that you will adhere to the letter but not have love to overlook the past sin of a brother or sister.
Jesus even says this. For by what you judge you will be judged by.
I am not saying to ignore Christians who behave badly. I am saying forgive the ones who had a bad past and God is restoring them.
Love should be first and always no matter how much it hurts your flesh.
If you are following the first and second law of Christ, you will see that each individual person's situation is unique and as the Bible says each has their own personal relationship with God. It is better to love than to judge because you don't know what God has told each individual.
Some remarry some not. That is all on God NOT us. Unless, like I said, it is a Christian behaving badly. Then I would question them being part of the fold.
You judge by a very rigid stick, you and the other NO Divorce or remarriage crew, and you will be judge yourselves by that ridged stick. Be careful God doesn't whip you with either.


Huck,

BE WARNED THAT THERE ARE MANY WHO POST HERE WHO SHOW NO LOVE TO THEIR FELLOW CHRISTIANS SUFFERING BECAUSE OF A FAILED MARRIAGE THAT ENDED IN DIVORCE THAT WAS NOT THEIR FAULT.
And you happen to be one of them.
Ask yourselves this....
If Jesus came and asked you "Where was your love for these and why did you condemn them after I forgave them?" What would your answer be? that you were following the law?



gmcspice -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 10:20:27 AM)

John 4

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

3He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

4And he must needs go through Samaria.

5Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

6Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8(For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:

18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

27And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?

28The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

29Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

30Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

31In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.

32But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

33Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?

34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

38I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

39And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

40So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.

41And many more believed because of his own word;

42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world

Here is the story of the woman at the well. It says no where that Jesus condemned her for being married 5 times! In fact he recognized all 5 of her marriages and stated that the 6th man she was with was not her husband. He didn't even say she was living in sin either, WOW!!!
She told him she didn't have a husband.
That is funny, why did Jesus see her 5 marriages then say he knew to that she had no husband?
Hmmmmm... something to ponder on.
And yes, he offer her the living water, too!
Deuteronomy 24

1When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


Here is the scripture that tells us that divorcing the 2nd spouse and returning to former spouse is WRONG.
It also say can remarry again.
I believe Jesus means for us to have a peaceful FREE walk with him. So, if you feel convicted NOT to remarry, then don't because you have not sinned. If you do feel the need to remarry, then do so because you have not sinned.
It is the ACTION that causes the divorce that is the sin. We must repent of that action and never commit it again.
By the way, pornea means FORNICATION!!!!!!!, not just adultery.
Find out what God's definition of fornication is and you will find what God's standard is NOT man's.



DaveW -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 11:27:59 AM)

So Huck - you are saying that Jesus negated the Law (I take your statement "full of the law" to refer to the Law of Moses) where it says to give her a certificate of divorce?



Isaiah331516 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 11:59:04 AM)

something i think interesting:

what doctrine did i write about...except that which the very Word of God spoke. i did not add anything to it or take anything away from it.

DaveW,

do you recall how Jesus refered to what was allowed before when He said, "you have heard it said"? then, He gave a deeper teaching, "but I say unto you."

Matthew 5:31-32
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also

Matthew 5:42-44
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:31-21
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery

did Jesus tell us that now that it is bad to hate our enemies, that we should not punish eye for eye and tooth for tooth?



Isaiah331516 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 12:03:54 PM)

oh, just wondering:

why do some say that when they are born again their first marriage is wiped away? the divorce is wiped away, for that was the sin, not the marriage. some say they are completely new and that everything they ever did before is gone (bad/good). i don't think so. how many of those people would say their degree earned before is no longer valid or that the children they bore are no longer theirs? would they give up the house they bought and say they never bought it? on this same token, if this is the case, then all those who are married at the time of conversion would need to go get married again...because that marriage doesn't count...according to that philosophy that the marriage before conversion is 'wiped away.'



gmcspice -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 12:27:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Isaiah331516

oh, just wondering:

why do some say that when they are born again their first marriage is wiped away? the divorce is wiped away, for that was the sin, not the marriage. some say they are completely new and that everything they ever did before is gone (bad/good). i don't think so. how many of those people would say their degree earned before is no longer valid or that the children they bore are no longer theirs? would they give up the house they bought and say they never bought it? on this same token, if this is the case, then all those who are married at the time of conversion would need to go get married again...because that marriage doesn't count...according to that philosophy that the marriage before conversion is 'wiped away.'


Bro,

Why do you always want to compare what man does with what God does?
When he says you are a new creature, do you think GOD is lying?
When he says all your sins are forgiven, why do you doubt?
If you did not doubt that anything is possible with God you would not question what he tells us is the truth.
In God's eyes, that marriage IS NO MORE. It is NOT philosophy, bro, it is what Jesus says.



DaveW -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/31/2010 1:28:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Isaiah331516

something i think interesting:

what doctrine did i write about...except that which the very Word of God spoke. i did not add anything to it or take anything away from it.

No - not adding or taking away from what is quoted. But you do not consider the WHOLE of scripture - every other instance talking on the same subject. You will find that the situation is not just about one passage. You know what, (a lot are very uncomfortable with this statement) sometimes scriptural commands can be in conflict with each other. Don't sweat it. It happens. We do not have to find some work-around or re-intrepret something to say something else. They disagree.

Take the biblical command to preserve life vs the biblical prohibition of working on the sabbath.
Take the biblical command to preserve life vs the biblical prohibition of non=priests eating showbread.

Jesus Himself brings these up. The overriding biblical tenor is to show chesed - lovingkindness. The passages of the sermon on the mount reflect that. He states what God's original unfallen intent was and then gives practical advice in showing chesed in a fallen world.



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