RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Crushmaster -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/5/2010 7:41:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

quote:

2. Even then, remarriage is not acceptable.


8But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

9But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Who is the "unmarried" in this case? And don't say virgins because he addresses them further down in verse 25.
This tells me those unmarried are the ones spoken of in Deut. 24:1-4.
How do you reconcile that law with what is said here? where do you get that remarriage is not possible at all?

15Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

17Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches.


What about this, Cush? it tells me its okay for the believer to marry again if the unbeliever leaves. What do you say about this?

Actually, that's not what it says, unless the Bible is contradicting itself, which is an impossibility.

Paul was never married. It says it is speaking to the unmarried and to the widows. It's very clear.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.




gnote -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/5/2010 7:42:03 PM)

You have yet to answer my question, again.[sm=crazy.gif]

Does God demand being in a "non-married" marriage to remain alone for the rest of their life?

That is, as in my example, does the brother doomed to remain by himself for the rest of his life (unless of course the non-ex-wife returns from the new non-husband)?

[ ] Yes he is to wait for the rest of his life, or until she decides to return
[ ] No, he can off his non-ex-wife, then remarry
[ ] I am not going to tell you, just patronize you by not directly answering, ever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

Jhuperetes,

I will repeat: Divorce is a myth as per Jesus' doctrine of permanency. Therefore remarriage after divorce is also a myth; it is not marriage. Jesus denied man the concession of Moses (Deut. 24:1) therefore the "abomination" is a mute point; He taught creation marriage: they twain are one flesh. My point regarding Gomer was that as long as she was alive she was Hosea's wife.

The primary principle of the N.T. is that the blood of the Lamb of God forgiveth us from all sin and thus "restores" all men ... therefore RESTORATION to God and man is the power of the Gospel. That is why Jesus could preach marriage-permanency to sinful man ... restoration is now possible for all offences.




benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/5/2010 9:13:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

quote:

2. Even then, remarriage is not acceptable.


8But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

9But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Who is the "unmarried" in this case? And don't say virgins because he addresses them further down in verse 25.
This tells me those unmarried are the ones spoken of in Deut. 24:1-4.
How do you reconcile that law with what is said here? where do you get that remarriage is not possible at all?

15Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

17Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches.


What about this, Cush? it tells me its okay for the believer to marry again if the unbeliever leaves. What do you say about this?

Actually, that's not what it says, unless the Bible is contradicting itself, which is an impossibility.

Paul was never married. It says it is speaking to the unmarried and to the widows. It's very clear.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.



Sorry, but Paul uses the exact same word in 1 Cor. 7:11 when telling the separated wives to remain unmarried, and obviously THEY HAD BEEN MARRIED. So YES, 'agamos' (unmarried) can refer to those who have been previously married, and because Paul specifically address virgins (those who have never been married) separately in 7:25 there is no reason to accept the idea that Paul was also referring to those who had never been married in 7:8. Paul does not contradict himself, he only contradicts your doctrine.




huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/5/2010 10:40:14 PM)

quote:

That is, as in my example, does the brother doomed to remain by himself for the rest of his life (unless of course the non-ex-wife returns from the new non-husband.



Jesus answered your question; and He does not apologize for calling men to a life of being a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven's sake:

Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


This is what I have been saying all along ... I see Jesus' doctrine of permanency calls the innocent husband in your "example" to become a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven's sake or reconcile with his wayward wife.




huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/5/2010 10:49:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

How does certain types of foods have anything to do with divorce and remarriage?



If you follow the posts in question you will see that the Law forbid certain food, shell fish (lobsters) for instance, and to eat such unclean creatures was an abomination. However in Acts 10 Peter was commanded to rise kill and eat some of these abominations. To all believers in Christ the eating of the Levitical unclean creatures is no longer an abomination.

So with the abomination in Deut. 24:1-4. My point being that Jesus abrogated concession that permitted divorce, the abomination of Deut. 24:4 is no longer possible since divorce is a myth and remarriage after divorce is not a marriage but an act of adultery. That is what types of food have to do with MDR.




huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/5/2010 11:26:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

quote:

2. Even then, remarriage is not acceptable.


8But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

9But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Who is the "unmarried" in this case? And don't say virgins because he addresses them further down in verse 25.
This tells me those unmarried are the ones spoken of in Deut. 24:1-4.
How do you reconcile that law with what is said here? where do you get that remarriage is not possible at all?

15Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

17Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches.


What about this, Cush? it tells me its okay for the believer to marry again if the unbeliever leaves. What do you say about this?

Actually, that's not what it says, unless the Bible is contradicting itself, which is an impossibility.

Paul was never married. It says it is speaking to the unmarried and to the widows. It's very clear.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.



Sorry, but Paul uses the exact same word in 1 Cor. 7:11 when telling the separated wives to remain unmarried, and obviously THEY HAD BEEN MARRIED. So YES, 'agamos' (unmarried) can refer to those who have been previously married, and because Paul specifically address virgins (those who have never been married) separately in 7:25 there is no reason to accept the idea that Paul was also referring to those who had never been married in 7:8. Paul does not contradict himself, he only contradicts your doctrine.



The term "unmarried" really includes all individuals mentioned in the first part of this chapter from verses 1-8. It is used in a general sense. To say it includes some of those in Deut. 24:1-4 is mere speculation at best. Paul goes out of his way to deny divorce and remarriage in ICor. 7. He preaches two classic permanency passages and some see a third:

(#1) 1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

(#2) 1Co 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

Some students see ICor. 7:15 as a permanency verse:

(#3) 1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

The term bondage here meaning that the believer is not under a command to "resist and arrest or force the unbeliever" to remain in the marriage; rather the believer is to permit the unbeliever to "depart-in-peace" ... while hoping for the Salvation of the unbeliever and Reconcilation: save thy wife, save thy husband.




benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/6/2010 12:05:51 AM)

quote:

Some students see ICor. 7:15 as a permanency verse:

(#3) 1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

The term bondage here meaning that the believer is not under a command to "resist and arrest or force the unbeliever" to remain in the marriage; rather the believer is to permit the unbeliever to "depart-in-peace" ... while hoping for the Salvation of the unbeliever and Reconcilation: save thy wife, save thy husband.


Only those "students" who are trying desperately to support their MDR doctrine even when it contradicts Scripture can see interpretations like this.




my quivers full -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/6/2010 2:16:49 AM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full



To take a hard line on any issue smells of legalism to me. Jesus rebuked the pharisees for bowing to the letter of the law and yet ignoring the heart of the law. God's heart and design for marriage is that it is permanent, I agree, but we also live in a sinful fallen world. If never getting married again works for you, fine. I do not see it clearly in scripture and in my endeavors to fully follow and obey Christ, it is not yet a conviction in my heart.



Quuestion:

Is God's perfect will for marriage legalism?


Gods perfect will for marriage is not legalism. Do any of us live in Gods perfect will?

Take the Sabbath as an example of what I mean. From the pharisees perspective, keeping the Sabbath was a non negotiable law of God. It was important enough to be included in the Ten commandments and their own history told them of the first Sabbath breaker being stoned to death for picking up firewood. Absolutely no exception to the Sabbath law. Rigid, hard lined, no room to move. Along comes Jesus and does all kinds of things on the Sabbath, even commanding people to pick up their mats and walk. In their minds they could not understand why Jesus breaks the Sabbath law and it is alright when for others they must die? Yet Jesus told us that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He spoke of the heart of the Sabbath law not to the rigid rules. So I believe it is with marriage. The heart of the marriage covenant is an enduring life long relationship of love, communion, intimacy, relationship, commitment and so on. When the heart of it is ignored, no amount of rule keeping will make it right. It will only appear so on the outside. It will be full of dead mans bones.

Those who must demand others to abide by a set of rules is missing the heart of who God is. Love doesn't demand it's own way.




huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/6/2010 11:36:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full



To take a hard line on any issue smells of legalism to me. Jesus rebuked the pharisees for bowing to the letter of the law and yet ignoring the heart of the law. God's heart and design for marriage is that it is permanent, I agree, but we also live in a sinful fallen world. If never getting married again works for you, fine. I do not see it clearly in scripture and in my endeavors to fully follow and obey Christ, it is not yet a conviction in my heart.



Quuestion:

Is God's perfect will for marriage legalism?


Gods perfect will for marriage is not legalism. Do any of us live in Gods perfect will?

Take the Sabbath as an example of what I mean. From the pharisees perspective, keeping the Sabbath was a non negotiable law of God. It was important enough to be included in the Ten commandments and their own history told them of the first Sabbath breaker being stoned to death for picking up firewood. Absolutely no exception to the Sabbath law. Rigid, hard lined, no room to move. Along comes Jesus and does all kinds of things on the Sabbath, even commanding people to pick up their mats and walk. In their minds they could not understand why Jesus breaks the Sabbath law and it is alright when for others they must die? Yet Jesus told us that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He spoke of the heart of the Sabbath law not to the rigid rules. So I believe it is with marriage. The heart of the marriage covenant is an enduring life long relationship of love, communion, intimacy, relationship, commitment and so on. When the heart of it is ignored, no amount of rule keeping will make it right. It will only appear so on the outside. It will be full of dead mans bones.

Those who must demand others to abide by a set of rules is missing the heart of who God is. Love doesn't demand it's own way.



Permanency-marriage is not an issue of legalism ... it is an issue of the literal existence of a new organic-union; two become one flesh. Jesus therefore taught us that permanency-marriage is a state-of-existence or literally a new creation of God and therefore it cannot be put asunder save by the death of a partner.


Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

huckfinn




huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/6/2010 11:46:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

Some students see ICor. 7:15 as a permanency verse:

(#3) 1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

The term bondage here meaning that the believer is not under a command to "resist and arrest or force the unbeliever" to remain in the marriage; rather the believer is to permit the unbeliever to "depart-in-peace" ... while hoping for the Salvation of the unbeliever and Reconcilation: save thy wife, save thy husband.


Only those "students" who are trying desperately to support their MDR doctrine even when it contradicts Scripture can see interpretations like this.



You know that the above position on I Cor. 7:15 is embraced by others in the MDR debate; it certainly is not desperate as you say. If Jesus came not to destroy the Law ... why do you and the Divorce/Remarriage Camp destroy the commandment of Deut. 22:22 and permit divorce/remarriage for the offense of adultery. Perhaps you are desperately supporting your doctrine.




finished_ -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/6/2010 2:22:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full


Gods perfect will for marriage is not legalism. Do any of us live in Gods perfect will?

Take the Sabbath as an example of what I mean. From the pharisees perspective, keeping the Sabbath was a non negotiable law of God. It was important enough to be included in the Ten commandments and their own history told them of the first Sabbath breaker being stoned to death for picking up firewood. Absolutely no exception to the Sabbath law. Rigid, hard lined, no room to move. Along comes Jesus and does all kinds of things on the Sabbath, even commanding people to pick up their mats and walk. In their minds they could not understand why Jesus breaks the Sabbath law and it is alright when for others they must die? Yet Jesus told us that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He spoke of the heart of the Sabbath law not to the rigid rules. So I believe it is with marriage. The heart of the marriage covenant is an enduring life long relationship of love, communion, intimacy, relationship, commitment and so on. When the heart of it is ignored, no amount of rule keeping will make it right. It will only appear so on the outside. It will be full of dead mans bones.

Those who must demand others to abide by a set of rules is missing the heart of who God is. Love doesn't demand it's own way.



Eep! Are you saying that Jesus sinned? The biblical definition of sin is 'transgression of the law'...so if Jesus broke the Sabbath law, then he sinned, and therefore could not be the Messiah!!!
He did not break God's law, only the extra rules that were added by man as a protective hedge around the sabbath law.
He kept EVERY rule that God made, or he could not have died for us.

Sorry, I know that's not entirely on topic, but I had to mention it.




gralan -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/6/2010 11:32:53 PM)

I wanted to thank you for stating your position so well.

I think that those who are outside of our relationships have a difficult time enforcing their views upon others, as in legalism in a particular doctrinal position, because they lack the relationship with those they are demanding meet a certain standard.

When feeling called to go to an SBC local congregation, I had to face re-baptism because SBC enforces immersion-only in a legalistic fashion. I did not feel called personally to be rebaptised but eventually through my wrestling with verses and concepts and prayer I realized that if my wife and I were being led to join that I could participate in rebaptism to ease their consciences; as Paul illustriously wrote of in his epistles of doing for the sake of others.

Paul writes very plainly about judging the servants of another. Each of us are not servants of the other, in the sense Paul writes of in Romans. Each of us has or has not Jesus as our own Master. It is for me, you and each of us to please "my" Master Jesus. Paul writes that each of us stands or falls before our own Master. What ever does not proceed from faith is sin.

I believe it is wise to be informed, listen to empassioned folks who hold various views, listen to good advice and pray your heart out.

However, if it isn't a personal issue then it might be best to leave the topic for those who actually have a decision to make before God. There are so many dabblers.

I married for the first time at age 36, part of the reason was not to marry in err. I am still married to my bride. It has been difficult at times for sure but we are still happily married (that means after the hard times).

I've known folks who believed that even a widower cannot remarry without violating the "husband of one wife" clause. I do not agree with them.

May God cause us all to will and to do according to God's own good pleasure.


quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full



To take a hard line on any issue smells of legalism to me. Jesus rebuked the pharisees for bowing to the letter of the law and yet ignoring the heart of the law. God's heart and design for marriage is that it is permanent, I agree, but we also live in a sinful fallen world. If never getting married again works for you, fine. I do not see it clearly in scripture and in my endeavors to fully follow and obey Christ, it is not yet a conviction in my heart.



Quuestion:

Is God's perfect will for marriage legalism?


Gods perfect will for marriage is not legalism. Do any of us live in Gods perfect will?

Take the Sabbath as an example of what I mean. From the pharisees perspective, keeping the Sabbath was a non negotiable law of God. It was important enough to be included in the Ten commandments and their own history told them of the first Sabbath breaker being stoned to death for picking up firewood. Absolutely no exception to the Sabbath law. Rigid, hard lined, no room to move. Along comes Jesus and does all kinds of things on the Sabbath, even commanding people to pick up their mats and walk. In their minds they could not understand why Jesus breaks the Sabbath law and it is alright when for others they must die? Yet Jesus told us that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He spoke of the heart of the Sabbath law not to the rigid rules. So I believe it is with marriage. The heart of the marriage covenant is an enduring life long relationship of love, communion, intimacy, relationship, commitment and so on. When the heart of it is ignored, no amount of rule keeping will make it right. It will only appear so on the outside. It will be full of dead mans bones.

Those who must demand others to abide by a set of rules is missing the heart of who God is. Love doesn't demand it's own way.




my quivers full -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/7/2010 12:56:35 AM)

Northstar, please go back and re-read what I wrote. If you can find anywhere that I implied that Jesus sinned, the I stand corrected. What you will find, I hope, is that I stated from the perspective of the pharisees, Jesus broke the sabbath laws. That perspective is clearly stated when you read their reactions to the things Jesus did on sabbath days, but this is not the subject of this thread. I was trying to use an example to express my point of view. I suppose no matter what is said by any of us, it will be understood by some and not by others.




prophetjul -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/7/2010 6:53:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

quote:

2. Even then, remarriage is not acceptable.


8But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

9But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Who is the "unmarried" in this case? And don't say virgins because he addresses them further down in verse 25.
This tells me those unmarried are the ones spoken of in Deut. 24:1-4.
How do you reconcile that law with what is said here? where do you get that remarriage is not possible at all?

15Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

17Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches.


What about this, Cush? it tells me its okay for the believer to marry again if the unbeliever leaves. What do you say about this?

Actually, that's not what it says, unless the Bible is contradicting itself, which is an impossibility.

Paul was never married. It says it is speaking to the unmarried and to the widows. It's very clear.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.



Sorry, but Paul uses the exact same word in 1 Cor. 7:11 when telling the separated wives to remain unmarried, and obviously THEY HAD BEEN MARRIED. So YES, 'agamos' (unmarried) can refer to those who have been previously married, and because Paul specifically address virgins (those who have never been married) separately in 7:25 there is no reason to accept the idea that Paul was also referring to those who had never been married in 7:8. Paul does not contradict himself, he only contradicts your doctrine.




Isssit the Lord command or Paul's suggestion?



quote:

7:10 To the married I give this command – not I, but the Lord 8 – a wife should not divorce a husband 7:11 (but if she does, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband), and a husband should not divorce his wife.

7:12 To the rest I say – I, not the Lord




prophetjul -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/7/2010 7:01:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: northstar

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full


Gods perfect will for marriage is not legalism. Do any of us live in Gods perfect will?

Take the Sabbath as an example of what I mean. From the pharisees perspective, keeping the Sabbath was a non negotiable law of God. It was important enough to be included in the Ten commandments and their own history told them of the first Sabbath breaker being stoned to death for picking up firewood. Absolutely no exception to the Sabbath law. Rigid, hard lined, no room to move. Along comes Jesus and does all kinds of things on the Sabbath, even commanding people to pick up their mats and walk. In their minds they could not understand why Jesus breaks the Sabbath law and it is alright when for others they must die? Yet Jesus told us that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He spoke of the heart of the Sabbath law not to the rigid rules. So I believe it is with marriage. The heart of the marriage covenant is an enduring life long relationship of love, communion, intimacy, relationship, commitment and so on. When the heart of it is ignored, no amount of rule keeping will make it right. It will only appear so on the outside. It will be full of dead mans bones.

Those who must demand others to abide by a set of rules is missing the heart of who God is. Love doesn't demand it's own way.



Eep! Are you saying that Jesus sinned? The biblical definition of sin is 'transgression of the law'...so if Jesus broke the Sabbath law, then he sinned, and therefore could not be the Messiah!!!
He did not break God's law, only the extra rules that were added by man as a protective hedge around the sabbath law.
He kept EVERY rule that God made, or he could not have died for us.

Sorry, I know that's not entirely on topic, but I had to mention it.


North

you are absolutely rite! The pharisees added to the law.
Noones adding to God's perfect will for marriage here, are we?




gnote -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/8/2010 8:43:03 AM)

What of the one that is unable to receive it? The one that burns and does not have Paul's gift?

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

quote:

That is, as in my example, does the brother doomed to remain by himself for the rest of his life (unless of course the non-ex-wife returns from the new non-husband.



Jesus answered your question; and He does not apologize for calling men to a life of being a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven's sake:

Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


This is what I have been saying all along ... I see Jesus' doctrine of permanency calls the innocent husband in your "example" to become a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven's sake or reconcile with his wayward wife.




luispinzon -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/8/2010 9:37:49 AM)

Should they be allowed to serve in leadership? Not in my church.




huckfinn327 -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/8/2010 4:27:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jhuperetes

What of the one that is unable to receive it? The one that burns and does not have Paul's gift?

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

quote:

That is, as in my example, does the brother doomed to remain by himself for the rest of his life (unless of course the non-ex-wife returns from the new non-husband.



Jesus answered your question; and He does not apologize for calling men to a life of being a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven's sake:

Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


This is what I have been saying all along ... I see Jesus' doctrine of permanency calls the innocent husband in your "example" to become a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven's sake or reconcile with his wayward wife.



Hi Jhumperetes,


There were two groups of people listening to Jesus here: (the disciples) and (the Pharisees). The disciples were the ones that sparked their astonishment: " If this be the case ... it is not good to marry."

Like I said, Jesus did not apologize; but proceeds to a greater astonishment. The silence of the disciples apparently was their "submission"; they did not want to be numbered with those (the Pharisees) who could not receive Jesus' eunuch MDR doctrine.

Now your question: About the one who cannot receive His saying; or Pauls celibacy?

Jesus is the author of this eunuch doctrine ... I believe that one must prayerfully seek God the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth regarding MDR and this is a vital text in that regard. As I said, I believe Jesus is saying that He has those who will receive it among His sheep. The silence of His disciples perhaps means that they all accepted the eunuch MDR doctrine.

huckfinn




cure4divorce -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/9/2010 8:11:59 PM)

What Paul meant when he said the woman is bound to "the law of the husband" Romans 7:2-3.

Romans Chapter 7
Paul wrote a letter to the believers, both Jews and Gentiles, living in Rome. He started off saying to the Jews “Indeed you are called a Jew and rest on the law, and make your boast in God…you who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law” Rom 2:17-24. Then speaking to them again on the issues of the Law of Moses saying…

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

They were committing spiritual “adultery”. Paul uses a physical truth “For…” Rom 7:2, to bring a physical conclusion “So then…” Rom 7:3, to explain the spiritual truth “So…” Rom 7:4. Old wine skins filled with new wine.

The term had by “another” (Greek) was usually used by the Jewish language to mean another man married her Jer 3:1 from the example of Deut 24:2 (married to the second man). And latter said in Rom 7:4 Greek “becoming another” speaking of being married to “Another” that of Jesus.

Paul spoke to the Jews concerning the Law, that they should have already known, “Or don’t you know brethren…” Rom 7:1a. That is, when you are bound of “Law” you cannot leave that bondage but only by death. Rom 7:4 saying “but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress though she has married another man” vs. 3.

“Under-man, woman”
Rom 7:2 this sentence says in Greek, “The for (for the) under-man (husband under) woman to the living man (husband), having been (has been) bound (of) law.”

This sentence could better be translated: “For the woman who is under a husband has been bound of law to the living husband.”

The proper word used in Rom 7:2 could be translated “bound of law” instead of “bound by law.”

Paul says “under-husband” woman “to” the “living (“as long as lives”) husband” she is bound Rom 7:2. Thus we can see Paul was making the point that upon becoming married she is bound under his rule and cannot separate from his rule to marry “another”. The Jews were trying to obey the Law of Moses and Christ, at the same time (Rom 2:23).

The “under-husband” used in Rom 7:2, states two facts. First, this woman upon becoming married under a husband is bound of law. And secondly, the reason she is bound to a law to him is because she was put “under” him. Paul uses a known subject (husband/wife) to explain a further truth (spiritual).

Although a man is never under the “law” of his wife (put under her in marriage) he is said to be “bound” 1 Cor 7:27 to her also when married. So, though they are both said to be “bound” to each other but only woman is said to be bound of “law” 1 Cor 7:39, Rom 7:2.

The principle of under-man is also shown in the first part of the Greek word “(under-) submission (appointed, set)” Eph 5:23-25 and Col 3:18 showing the premise of the “head”. At one point the woman was under her father, but now is under her husband Num 30:2-16.

This was to express her general or specific position to the man in submission (to establish the “lords over” rule in Rom 7:1b). This was taken from Paul’s concept when he said sin “lords over” a man while “under law”. As “under law” and “under grace” is being used in Rom 6:15, so we can understand the use of “under-man”.

The “under” word in Greek is also used in the first part of the word “under-officers” or “ministers” to show submission to another. The ‘under’ was to establish order, position, or rank in these usages. Under was nothing more than to be understood in general as under something else.

Paul does not focus in Rom 7:1-2 or 1 Cor 7:39 on the covenant as to why she is ‘bound’ to her husband, or the marriage itself, but puts the focus on the “law” of the husband.

“Law of-the”
Paul also used the words “law of-the” or “law of” to point something other than the Law of Moses as we might say the “law of Nature”, the “law of Gravity”, or the “law of Physics”. Or as said in Old Testament “law of the sacrifice”, “law of leprosy” or “law of defilement” (Footnote 29).

This “law” is to be something of known unmovable parameters that binds us under a rule. By Paul stating in Rom 7:1, the principle of law, Paul states anytime something falls “under” something else (in its entirety) if falls under a principle ‘law’ to it for life.

Paul further spoke of this principle of “law” from Rom 7:1 to state a known fact or order in the rest of this chapter 7-8 i.e. “another law”, “law of the sin”, “I find a law that is evil is present with me”, “law of the mind”, “law of the Spirit”, “law of the sin and of the death”. And likewise was the “law of the husband” used Rom 7:2b.

The “law of the husband” was a principle law referenced to the Law of the husband in Deut 24:4 stating she was “defiled” when she married her second husband.

Paul also uses the word “law” without speaking about the Law of Moses when he said the Jews are not saved by the “law of works” but through the “law (of) faith”. And Paul referenced the “Law of God” and the “Law of Christ” in 1 Cor 9:21 though he was not speaking about the “Law of Moses” either. Also James spoke about the “law (of) liberty” in James 1:25 and 2:12.

The “law of the husband” was a play-on-words, which Paul used to show when you become “under” a “law” of something (as of The Law of Moses) the law “lords-over” you Rom 7:1, in which you “were held by,” until a “death” frees you from ‘what’ you are bound to. This was a law by principle.

“Law of the husband”

Rom 7:2b “But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband...”

“This is the law of the...”

As Paul being studied under the strictest of the Law would have been very familiar with the different Laws in the Old Testament (the Ancestral Law). Many of the Old Testament Laws were broken down by Moses and after giving the parameters said “This is the law of the...” then stated that Law. Such as “the law of jealousy” Num 5:29, “law of burnt offering” Lev 6:9, “law of grain offering” 6:14, “law of sin offering” 6:25, “law of the sacrifice of peace offerings” 7:11, “law of the burnt offering” 7:37, “law of leprous plague” 13:59, “law of the one who had a leprous sore” 14:32, “law of leprosy” 14:57, and “law of one who has a discharge” 15:32.

By Paul saying she is released from the “law of the husband” this was not Paul referencing an Old Testament Law but since Paul just declared she is “bound of law” to her living husband, she, in a since, is now given the “law of the husband”. Paul does not make this 'law' based on his own assumptions but based on Scriptural principles that were laid down before in Scripture Gen 3:16, Deut 24:4 (she was defiled by her second marriage), and shown in Num 30:1-16 because man is the “head” of woman 1 Cor 11:3-4.

Paul also said in 1 Cor 7:39 (approximately one year BEFORE the book of Romans) when a woman marries a man she becomes “bound of law, as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.” Paul was not teaching against polygamy (having another man) as in Rom 7:1-6, but still Paul said a woman was “bound of law”. Paul is clearly teaching the woman (mainly coming from a Gentile Culture) two things: first, she is bound to her husband by a law as long as he lives, and secondly when her husband “sleeps” she may marry again. If a woman divorces her husband being under the “law of her husband” she must “remain unmarried or reconcile” to him 1 Cor 7:10-11a.

The women in the Corinthian church had a hard time excepting that she was to be submissive to her husband in “all” things 1 Cor 11:9-10 “man was not made for the woman, but woman for man”. And the trouble they were having in the Church service from the “husband’s” vs 35 wife 1 Cor 14:34. Clearly Paul had to teach the women of this Gentile civilization that they were under their husband and this limited them freedoms in regards to marriage and Church participation (the women thought they had the same freedoms as the husband had).

Why did Paul say a woman is bound to the “law of her husband” for life and Jesus did not? Jesus was focusing on the sin of those who were “putting away” their spouse improperly and marring another. Paul was focusing in Romans 7:2 on the woman’s limitations in the marriage from marrying another (how she is bound) 1 Cor 7:39.




gmcspice -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/10/2010 7:58:37 AM)

quote:

Should they be allowed to serve in leadership? Not in my church.


That is the thing..... IT AIN'T YOUR CHURCH!!! IT IS CHRIST'S!




PastorSteveMT -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/11/2010 3:42:29 PM)

Forgive me for not having the time...and frankly the desire to sort through 536 pages of text to see if my question has been answered. And it probably has been a dozen times. Anyway.

I'm trying to get my head around a few things so if anyone who holds to the camp that any remarriage is adultery could please address this it would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to say that there is no sarcasm or alterior motive in anything I say here. To be honest, I'm in a place of inner turmoil about this issue and I'm looking for clarification from God. So, on to my questions:

1) If a person divorces and remarries, do they go to hell? Are they giving up their salvation? Are they showing they were never saved to begin with? THE BOTTOM LINE QUESTION: DO THEY GO TO HELL?

2) If the answer is "Yes, they will go to hell", then what is the requirement in order to avoid hell? Can they avoid hell? Must they get a divorce from their current spouse in order to avoid hell? If they seek the Lord's face and ask for forgiveness for their adultery, are they forgiven or must they still get a divorce in order to get their salvation back?

3) If they answer is "No, they will not go to hell", then can it be said that divorce and remarriage is not a sin? Is it that they will not go to hell as long as they repent?


To those that say that MDR is ok, and to those that point to the Scripture where Jesus "recognizes" the womans 5 marriages, where do he tell her that it is ok or not a sin? Just because Jesus recognizes something, doesn't mean that it ISN'T sin does it?

I look forward to your responses.




my quivers full -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/11/2010 7:42:44 PM)

PastorsteveMT

I asked a similar question on the last page and found people to hold strongly to one view or another. I don't know that you'll find any consensus on whether or not it is a sin. As far as going to hell? I guess that depends if you believe a person can lose their salvation. Saved people do sin from time to time, but they do not have the desire to live a life of sinful behavior. Their desire is to please the Lord and through the wrestling with their sinful nature, they fall from time to time but at no time do they lose their salvation because of it. If a person claims Christ as Lord but consistently demonstrates a life lived to please oneself, I would wonder if they were truly saved, though I have no right to say one way or another. Jesus said a tree is known by it's fruit.

I know this of marriage. God created it, meant it to be a life time commitment, sinful man has perverted it and done with it as he pleased. I believe if both spouses in the marriage want to please the Lord, they would not divorce, they would work through their issues and reconcile, but if one wants to do as they please instead of denying themselves and taking their cross and following what Christ has called them to, then divorce happens and I'm still not settled in my heart if remarriage for the one who fought for their marriage is a sin or not. I don't want to play with Gods word to please my beliefs or feelings on the subject but I too see many, and I mean many, believers who have been divorced and remarry within the church and some prosper and seem to be blessed whilst others do not. I don't know why this is.

Are we just trying to define a set of rules or borders regarding marriage and divorce so we know the parameters of the box or are we missing something more important about marriage?




prophetjul -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/11/2010 9:18:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full

Are we just trying to define a set of rules or borders regarding marriage and divorce so we know the parameters of the box or are we missing something more important about marriage?


Methink that as usual the concept of marriage has been perverted by the world into a piece of paper
contract. Whereas the Lord God has instituted as a covenant where words of trust and faith is required to
make this relationship work, not a piece of paper.

This is a type of the relationship between Christ and the church, where the covenant is based on HIS WORDS.
This is where its important. If this relationship can be so easily broken at whims and fancies of either party, think of Christ and the church if they behave like so! Its because this covenant is so improtant, God has instructed that no man is to split a human marriage.

Think also no marriage in heaven.....

Study the jewish marriage. Its a replicated practice of Christs words to the coming again.




Crushmaster -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/11/2010 9:31:10 PM)

quote:

PastorSteveMT

1) If a person divorces and remarries, do they go to hell? Are they giving up their salvation? Are they showing they were never saved to begin with? THE BOTTOM LINE QUESTION: DO THEY GO TO HELL?

2) If the answer is "Yes, they will go to hell", then what is the requirement in order to avoid hell? Can they avoid hell? Must they get a divorce from their current spouse in order to avoid hell? If they seek the Lord's face and ask for forgiveness for their adultery, are they forgiven or must they still get a divorce in order to get their salvation back?

3) If they answer is "No, they will not go to hell", then can it be said that divorce and remarriage is not a sin? Is it that they will not go to hell as long as they repent?


To those that say that MDR is ok, and to those that point to the Scripture where Jesus "recognizes" the womans 5 marriages, where do he tell her that it is ok or not a sin? Just because Jesus recognizes something, doesn't mean that it ISN'T sin does it?

I look forward to your responses.

No sir, they will not. You cannot "give up" your salvation; once you're saved, you're right, Christ's blood covers you, you're on your to Heaven. That's the end of it!

Yes, it most certainly can, because the Bible calls it one. Yes, you will go to Hell if you do not repent - of your sins in general. Before you are saved, to get saved, if the Holy Spirit is drawing you, you must repent of your sins and accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

Nothing, I repeat, nothing can make you lose your salvation.
(John 10:27-29) - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

I hope this helped, sir.
God bless,
Crushmaster.




benelchi -> RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread (3/12/2010 1:24:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

quote:

PastorSteveMT

1) If a person divorces and remarries, do they go to hell? Are they giving up their salvation? Are they showing they were never saved to begin with? THE BOTTOM LINE QUESTION: DO THEY GO TO HELL?

2) If the answer is "Yes, they will go to hell", then what is the requirement in order to avoid hell? Can they avoid hell? Must they get a divorce from their current spouse in order to avoid hell? If they seek the Lord's face and ask for forgiveness for their adultery, are they forgiven or must they still get a divorce in order to get their salvation back?

3) If they answer is "No, they will not go to hell", then can it be said that divorce and remarriage is not a sin? Is it that they will not go to hell as long as they repent?


To those that say that MDR is ok, and to those that point to the Scripture where Jesus "recognizes" the womans 5 marriages, where do he tell her that it is ok or not a sin? Just because Jesus recognizes something, doesn't mean that it ISN'T sin does it?

I look forward to your responses.

No sir, they will not. You cannot "give up" your salvation; once you're saved, you're right, Christ's blood covers you, you're on your to Heaven. That's the end of it!

Yes, it most certainly can, because the Bible calls it one. Yes, you will go to Hell if you do not repent - of your sins in general. Before you are saved, to get saved, if the Holy Spirit is drawing you, you must repent of your sins and accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

Nothing, I repeat, nothing can make you lose your salvation.
(John 10:27-29) - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

I hope this helped, sir.
God bless,
Crushmaster.


So, do you believe it is possible for someone who dies while remarried and their ex-spouse is still living to have been saved, or do you believe all who die in this circumstance were never saved and will go to hell?




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