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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/31/2010 1:48:09 PM
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gmcspice
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Huck,
Nope, you still missed it.
Christ gave concessions.
He didn't change anything about the law.
And the Law Paul is discussing is Deut 24.
quote:
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder
Why do you insist upon cherry picking when you do that you remove a verse from its intended context.
If you look at the verses around that, Jesus says except for fornication.
You omit it because it destroys your doctrine.
You refuse the story of the woman at the well because it destroys your doctrine.
quote:
1Co 7:10-11 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
This speaks of separation NOT divorce. If she is given a GeT, according to Duet 24, then she IS divorced and may, according to SAME law, get remarried.
I am not going to bother quoting anything else because you know what you said.
In context, divorce does not just end a marriage it kills it, therefore the spouse IS "Dead"according to the divorce. therefore setting each person free to remarry.
Law of Love, Huck not bondage. Bondage is what you are teaching. Christ did NOT teach bondage. He taught freedom.
By the way, the Bible was written and address to BELIEVERS, unbelievers don't even understand it so how can you someone accountable for what they do not understand? you can't.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/31/2010 2:54:29 PM
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huckfinn327
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quote:
If you look at the verses around that, Jesus says except for fornication.
You omit it because it destroys your doctrine.
I believe "fornication" in Mt. 5:32/19:9 is an "obscure" text ... the Permanency School holds to these possible interpretations:
It can mean "incest" i.e. consanqineous-marriage to a relative Herod and Herodias (forbidden by John the Baptist) and the man and step-mother in I Cor. 5. (condemned by Paul)
It can mean Jewish Bethrothal fornication ... as with Joseph and Mary in Mt.1:18/19
It also has been interpreted "not for fornication" ... meaning Jesus excluded divorce even for fornication; Gk. text controversy with Erasmas Gk. Text
It has also been interpreted to mean that if a divorce was granted for fornication then remarriage would still be denied on the basis of oneness declared in Rom. 7:3. Majority of Church Fathers
It is also obscure because divorce disagrees with Mark, Luke, and Paul ... we believe that all three stand against MDR. (Analogy difficulties)
It is obscure because MDR school's interpretation agrees with Shammai to whom we see as a direct "opponent" of Jesus.
It's grammatical construction agrees with Jesus' in Mk. and Lk. but it is difficult to justify in Mt. ... making it "obscure".
This use of exception by Jesus is "uncommon" to Him.
All these things mark the exception an "obscure text" and must be managed by the whole of Scripture to understand.
Another "obscure" text is 1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Some people actually perform vicarious-baptisms for dead non-christian relatives and others. I believe it mean that we are baptized into Christ death.
< Message edited by huckfinn327 -- 1/31/2010 3:44:02 PM >
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NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/31/2010 4:25:31 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
I believe.......
Obscure text?!?!?!
Is that your way of explaining away something that doesn't fit what You believe but Jesus did indeed say?
First, the key word from you is that YOU BELIEVE; but that is NOT what Jesus says. It is there whether you believe it or not.
Like I said, twisting scripture, that is what You are doing.
It says in Koine Greek "Pornea" which means fornication.
That is a very broad/harsh word for Jesus to use.
God uses it to describe the fornication of Israel(even though it is in Hebrew, they mean the same thing, FORNICATION).
Benelchi is right. You still have NOT proven your doctrine is the right one when it comes to this subject. In fact, every time someone gives You correct translation, your words to discredit it is "that is an obscure text". Would You tell that to Jesus who said the very word fornication. That what he said was obscure?
Not to mention the very many more versed scholars that totally disagree with You on the text
You have not proven to me and others that what You believe is right. I rather believe what Jesus says and follow what Jesus does in situations like this.
You can go ahead and continue to place people back under bondage. I prefer to know the truth- that Jesus set them free.
To judge rightly depending on the situation and forgive, LOVE, and pray God gives them their hearts desire for following him.
Jesus LOVED the woman at the well and offered her eternal life even though she had 5 husbands and the 6th man she was living in fornication with. He told the adulteress' accusers that the one with now sin cast the first stone at her, later for her to go and sin no more , Which in that context probably means for her to stop sleeping with the married man and find her own husband or if she was already married, stop cheating on the husband she has.
Your doctrine does not testify to the Law of Love that Jesus taught and lived.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/31/2010 6:21:56 PM
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huckfinn327
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quote:
Your doctrine does not testify to the Law of Love that Jesus taught and lived.
Love faileth not ... Jesus said, "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish; when we become one with Him. As stated, our personal salvation is our marriage to Christ ... a Permanent Salvation ... as His doctrine of Permanent-Marriage. That certainly is Love.
I do not know of "any" Bible teachers who disagree with this statement: Jesus taught Permanency-Marriage ... based on Mt. 19 and Mk. 10: They twain shall be one flesh ff.
I and the Permanency Camp believe Jesus taught this literally in the sense of a law, or the Law of Marriage.
The MDR camp of scholars and teachers believe that Jesus taught Permanecy-Marriage also; however they believe that Jesus "only taught this as an Ideal ... an impossible dream ... a lofty moral goal ... not as a literal law of marriage.
If we are correct, "fornication" and for that fact even "adultery" cannot sever the marriage bond.
NOTE: I and the Permanency Camp do not concentrat on "divorce as "the" sin of concern ... but we see remarriage as the SIN of concern.
SUMMARY: The Literal Permanency Camp varies of some points of interpretation ... however the primary doctrine can be summed up as: NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 6:31:24 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
I do not know of "any" Bible teachers who disagree with this statement: Jesus taught Permanency-Marriage ... based on Mt. 19 and Mk. 10: They twain shall be one flesh ff.
Dude take off your horse blinders.
Most I know teach it within context and guess what, you ain't one of them.
You omit verses, you twist them and call them "obscure text" when they don't agree with what you believe.
quote:
Love faileth not ... Jesus said, "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish; when we become one with Him. As stated, our personal salvation is our marriage to Christ ... a Permanent Salvation ... as His doctrine of Permanent-Marriage. That certainly is Love
OH I get now.
You believe in OSAS, that sure explains a lot.
I will only say this. Jesus says "HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED."
We are NOT married yet to Christ because he has not come back for us yet. We are betrothed to Christ. See the story of the 10 virgins?
5 wise 5 foolish? There will be some that will be wise and have their lamps full go out to meet the Husband which is Christ and will be married(caught up) forever. The 5 foolish are the ones that weren't ready. These represent those who have not endured to the end and/or were not prepared BUT claim they are. Sounds like some people I know- the OSAS crowd. They think because they claim Jesus, they are his bride. We will see when the day of marriage comes.
quote:
NOTE: I and the Permanency Camp do not concentrate on "divorce as "the" sin of concern ... but we see remarriage as the SIN of concern.
According to the bible it is neither the divorce or the remarriage that is the sin. It is the action that caused the divorce that is the sin. Look at God's relationship with Israel. Look at Hosea and his wife. CLEARLY from these it supports the fact that even though God hates divorce, it is not the sin. It is the action of fornication that is the sin.
You should re-examine the WHOLE Bible and NOT just the bits and pieces that "agree" with you. It is NOT the divorce that a person should be seeking forgiveness for. It what ever they did to cause the divorce they should seek forgiveness for.
Again Back to the LAW OF LOVE.
Huck, your doctrine puts people in bondage AND causes "snobby" judgement. You look down your nose at people who have been divorced and remarried. You will reap what you sow for your wrong doctrine in this particular matter and the other afore mentioned.
< Message edited by gmcspice -- 2/1/2010 6:42:39 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 8:31:46 AM
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gnote
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By the way huckfinn327, thank you for taking the time and responding.
I do appreciate that you are trying, and although we may disagree where our minds are, I know that your heart is in the right place.
So, thank you brother.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 8:41:48 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
I believe "fornication" in Mt. 5:32/19:9 is an "obscure" text ... quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Obscure text?!?!?!
Is that your way of explaining away something that doesn't fit what You believe but Jesus did indeed say? Actually, at the time it was a text that was in dispute. I am not sure I would use "obscure" but the meaning is in question. It revolves around the ancient Hebrew word ervah in Deut 24.1.
In the first century bc the 2 main leaders of the Pharasees disagreed on the meaning of it. R. Shammai said it meant that on his wedding night he found his bride to not be a virgin. R. Hillel said it meant pretty much "for any reason" including routinely burning his meals. The question posed to our Lord was worded in a way to drag Jesus into the hot debate.
While I do not agree with HuckFinn's conclusion, his statement is correct. I would have worded it differently.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 9:45:25 AM
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huckfinn327
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
I believe "fornication" in Mt. 5:32/19:9 is an "obscure" text ... quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Obscure text?!?!?!
Is that your way of explaining away something that doesn't fit what You believe but Jesus did indeed say? Actually, at the time it was a text that was in dispute. I am not sure I would use "obscure" but the meaning is in question. It revolves around the ancient Hebrew word ervah in Deut 24.1.
In the first century bc the 2 main leaders of the Pharasees disagreed on the meaning of it. R. Shammai said it meant that on his wedding night he found his bride to not be a virgin. R. Hillel said it meant pretty much "for any reason" including routinely burning his meals. The question posed to our Lord was worded in a way to drag Jesus into the hot debate.
While I do not agree with HuckFinn's conclusion, his statement is correct. I would have worded it differently.
I appreciate your fairness ... I am especially taken by your reference to Deut. 22:13 (the virgin and the wedding night). ... as I said previously: I have been studying this subject for some time and have read much about Shammai's position but this is new information, I have never seen Deut. 22 referenced before. Thanks for your offering.
huck
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 12:01:16 PM
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huckfinn327
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jhuperetes
By the way huckfinn327, thank you for taking the time and responding.
I do appreciate that you are trying, and although we may disagree where our minds are, I know that your heart is in the right place.
So, thank you brother.
You certainly are a gentleman.
Best regards
By the way ... Thank you for alerting me regarding my ebook problems ... your changes have been made.
huck
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 2:06:42 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
Actually, at the time it was a text that was in dispute. I am not sure I would use "obscure" but the meaning is in question. It revolves around the ancient Hebrew word ervah in Deut 24.1.
In the first century bc the 2 main leaders of the Pharasees disagreed on the meaning of it. R. Shammai said it meant that on his wedding night he found his bride to not be a virgin. R. Hillel said it meant pretty much "for any reason" including routinely burning his meals. The question posed to our Lord was worded in a way to drag Jesus into the hot debate.
While I do not agree with HuckFinn's conclusion, his statement is correct. I would have worded it differently.
I completely understand that, Dave. I just wish Huck would not have said "obscure". That implies that what was said doesn't matter.
If he had said "debated" then I could have accepted that and then he could have put his stance behind that.
If you ask me, Jesus meant we could not divorce for just any reason like what is stated in Deut. 24:1. I believe it is as it says, fornication, but not man's definition of fornication; God's definition of fornication. To me, the biblical definition of fornication means ANYTHING that is placed before the marriage EXCEPT God. If a person is an alcoholic, they love or worship that MORE than they do the husband or wife and have committed "fornication" in their marriage. When a person abuses their spouse, they are not honoring them as the Bible says they should honor each other so the offending party is committing "fornication" within the marriage.
I believe God wants us to work out our marriages if they are in trouble. But if the two can't reconcile because of 'a hard heart', then it is fine for them to divorce and remarry if they so choose.
Again, I don't think we should divorce for just any reason though.
Also, I don't dislike Huck because he believe that particular doctrine. But, I find it hard to live out Christ's law of Love within that kind of doctrine. But that is for another discussion.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 2:51:26 PM
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Tarox
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I sense great theological minds at work here, and to be honest I've only digested this last page.
Just a question for huck, does your remarriage statement (the one in your signature) apply for widows and widowers as well?
Also, to be clear, is the issue of divorce in the air at all? Or have we settled that a divorce can be justified by adultery? As far as I can tell that's settled with a "yes" with the question now being focused on "can those who have divorced remarry?"
Also, do you guys think there's any room in this discussion for the "weak brother/ strong brother" idea? Maybe for one who feels convicted, remarriage isn't allowed, but another is freed by Christ's purchase to marry again?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 2:59:47 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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I have a question. What if your wife leaves you for another man and you have tried all you know to keep the marriage together and she refuses and divorces you are you free to marry again?
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 2/1/2010 3:21:36 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 3:09:49 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
Also, do you guys think there's any room in this discussion for the "weak brother/ strong brother" idea? Maybe for one who feels convicted, remarriage isn't allowed, but another is freed by Christ's purchase to marry again?
I am not sure it is an issue of strong/weak.
I believe it is a choice on what you believe God wants for you. I think God gives you a choice and he fulfills that choice.
The brother that believe he should not be remarried feels this in his heart that HE should not remarry. God will help this man through in conquering the desire for a mate.
Doesn't Jesus says in Matthew 19:11-12 (New International Version)
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
Just because a brother wants to get remarried doesn't make him weak. He just has desires for what God created in him in the first place. The desire for a mate, wife.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 4:14:59 PM
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huckfinn327
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quote:
Just a question for huck, does your remarriage statement (the one in your signature) apply for widows and widowers as well?
Scripture clearly permits remarriage-this-side-of-death ... i.e. the death of a partner severs the earthly marriage bond.
huckfinn
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 5:09:43 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
I have a question. What if your wife leaves you for another man and you have tried all you know to keep the marriage together and she refuses and divorces you are you free to marry again?
yes she has committed adultery and abandoned the marriage.You are free to marry again after divorce.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 5:36:46 PM
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gnote
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No, not according to huckfinn327's theology.
If I understand correctly, she is adulterous, her second marriage is invalid and the first husband is volunteered to chastity and to 'burn' as Paul described it, for the rest of his wife's or his own life.
Please correct me if I got it wrong, huckfinn327.
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
I have a question. What if your wife leaves you for another man and you have tried all you know to keep the marriage together and she refuses and divorces you are you free to marry again?
yes she has committed adultery and abandoned the marriage.You are free to marry again after divorce.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 6:03:29 PM
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cure4divorce
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Incorrect belief's...
* Being born again does not nullify the former marriage covenant.
*In regards to those who thought a wife is free to be departed from her husband if he neglects her in “food, her clothing, and her marriage rights” Ex 21:7, 10-11. This was given to those who were married to “slaves” who were considered “property” of their owner Ex 21:20-21. Slaves (Lev 19:20) were given special rights and laws concerning betrothal and marriage than that of a free woman (Deut 22:23-24). Some of these laws help protect the slave from being abused by their husband's in such matters Deut 21:14 because he has “humbled her”. It says if a man marries a slave then later marries another woman, the woman who was given to him as a slave he is not to abuse her in marriage. The man's “free” woman was not given such protections because since she was his “second” wife, it was thought that he would neglect the “unloved” one Deut 21:15.
*Unfortunately some people teach that only during the "betrothal" or "engagement" period was a man allowed to "put away" a woman, according to the Law. That is incorrect. In Matt 5:32 and Matt 19:9 it is saying if a man puts away a woman (formerly his wife by Jesus saying they were "one flesh" which only happens after consummation) then remarries without knowledge of sexual immorality then he is guilty of "adultery". God became “one flesh” with Israel in Ez 16:8 where He said it was “time” for her “love” and He “spread” His “skirt” over her “nakedness” and entered into a “covenant”. If a man put away or known by the Jews as divorced his wife for sexual immorality, he was free to marry another as God divorced Israel in Jer 3:8-9 after she was clearly his wife by not only first becoming "betrothed" in the wilderness Jer 2:2 but entering into the "covenant" of blood of Moses becoming her "husband" Ex 24:7.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 6:06:40 PM
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cure4divorce
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
The reason Paul says a woman is bound of law as long as the husband lives.. is to tell the Jews of her freedom to marry another man when her husband sleeps and not worry about the resurrection day in whose wife she will be...
The Jews believed that in the “resurrection” they would return back to their earthly husbands (Matt 22:28-30) in which Jesus replied they neither marry nor are given in marriage. This was probably why Paul said a woman is only bound by law “as long as her husband lives”. For when he dies or sleeps, she is free to remarry who she wills for she does not have to remain single in hopes to return to her former husband in the Day of Christ.
Mike, this is not true according to scripture though.
Christ said that when we get to heaven, there will be no giving in marriage. That means no marriage at all. When God says this earth will pass away, it will pass away.
And Christ didn't do away with the law.
Since God wrote a divorce law through Moses, it still stands. Jesus only stated that divorce is only for fornication.
Sorry, I should have clarified.. Many Jews previously thought that in the resurection they were going to return to whom they were married too. In 1 Cor 7:39 since Paul put the emphases on if the husband of her "sleeps" and is not spiritually dead many of the believers did not feel the woman was free and thought they were still married to them in heaven. For Christians were taught we do not die we only sleep until the resurection of all.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 6:43:30 PM
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gmcspice
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Mike,
Paul put emphasis on a lot of things.
He said it is better to marry than to burn.
He said that each man should have his own wife and each woman should have her own husband.
He also distinguished between unmarried, virgins, and widows/widowers.
You take one verse and just build a doctrine around it. That is the problem with both you and Huck. Your views on this subject DO NOT fulfill the Law of Love that Christ taught.
I want so bad for you to just GET IT but you won't. Go ahead and hold on to your few verses that you take out of context and build a false doctrine on. I will take the FULL word of God over that any day. I refuse to jeopardize my salvation because of another person's beliefs.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 7:50:29 PM
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cure4divorce
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Mike,
Paul put emphasis on a lot of things.
He said it is better to marry than to burn.
He said that each man should have his own wife and each woman should have her own husband.
He also distinguished between unmarried, virgins, and widows/widowers.
You take one verse and just build a doctrine around it. That is the problem with both you and Huck. Your views on this subject DO NOT fulfill the Law of Love that Christ taught.
I want so bad for you to just GET IT but you won't. Go ahead and hold on to your few verses that you take out of context and build a false doctrine on. I will take the FULL word of God over that any day. I refuse to jeopardize my salvation because of another person's beliefs.
He told the "unmarrieds" and "widows" it is better to marry then to burn, but Paul imediately disqualified the women who left their husband saying she was to "remain unmarried"... if she was not able to reconcile. When Paul tells the unmarrieds it is ok to marry, he was referring only to those who could marry and have it not to be "sin" 1 Cor 7:28.
Also, when Paul says "widows" he is not referring to both men and women but only the women who have become so 1 Cor 7:39 and 1 Tim 5:8-9. Paul knew a man when "loosed" from his wife was able to remarry 1 Cor 7:27-28 but the woman who departs is told she MUST "remain unmarried or reconcile to her husband".
If the woman was divorced for sexual immorality by the husband, this is the only was she was able to marry again and not be guilty of committing adultery against her husband Matt 5:32a.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 7:56:18 PM
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cure4divorce
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jhuperetes
No, not according to huckfinn327's theology.
If I understand correctly, she is adulterous, her second marriage is invalid and the first husband is volunteered to chastity and to 'burn' as Paul described it, for the rest of his wife's or his own life.
Please correct me if I got it wrong, huckfinn327.
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
I have a question. What if your wife leaves you for another man and you have tried all you know to keep the marriage together and she refuses and divorces you are you free to marry again?
yes she has committed adultery and abandoned the marriage.You are free to marry again after divorce.
If a woman leaves the husband without known "sexual immorality" by her in the marriage, Jesus said if he marries again he commits adultery Matt 19:9. But his former wife marries another, it says she commits adultery against him, and since he is unable to reconcile Deut 24:4, by both accounts he is free to remarry and has been "loosed" from his former wife 1 Cor 7:27-28.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 8:00:32 PM
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cure4divorce
Posts: 571
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
I have a question. What if your wife leaves you for another man and you have tried all you know to keep the marriage together and she refuses and divorces you are you free to marry again?
yes she has committed adultery and abandoned the marriage.You are free to marry again after divorce.
The man is only free to marry, if his wife committed sexual immorality in the marriage, or married another man already.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 8:03:53 PM
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cure4divorce
Posts: 571
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
Also, do you guys think there's any room in this discussion for the "weak brother/ strong brother" idea? Maybe for one who feels convicted, remarriage isn't allowed, but another is freed by Christ's purchase to marry again?
I am not sure it is an issue of strong/weak.
I believe it is a choice on what you believe God wants for you. I think God gives you a choice and he fulfills that choice.
The brother that believe he should not be remarried feels this in his heart that HE should not remarry. God will help this man through in conquering the desire for a mate.
Doesn't Jesus says in Matthew 19:11-12 (New International Version)
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
Just because a brother wants to get remarried doesn't make him weak. He just has desires for what God created in him in the first place. The desire for a mate, wife.
According to Paul, if you are not "loosed" after a proper divorce you commit "sin". Sin is never allowed because of passions of lust. If you are not loosed or free to remarry yet, God will give you the streangth to endure until either they die or the marriage covenant properly loosed you. Not all scripture is the same for both man and woman. For Moses only gave the man permission to put away his wife for she is "under" his rule Gen 3:16 and said by Paul latter in 1 Cor 14:34 that is under the "law" of her husband.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 8:08:49 PM
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cure4divorce
Posts: 571
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
I believe "fornication" in Mt. 5:32/19:9 is an "obscure" text ... quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Obscure text?!?!?!
Is that your way of explaining away something that doesn't fit what You believe but Jesus did indeed say? Actually, at the time it was a text that was in dispute. I am not sure I would use "obscure" but the meaning is in question. It revolves around the ancient Hebrew word ervah in Deut 24.1.
In the first century bc the 2 main leaders of the Pharasees disagreed on the meaning of it. R. Shammai said it meant that on his wedding night he found his bride to not be a virgin. R. Hillel said it meant pretty much "for any reason" including routinely burning his meals. The question posed to our Lord was worded in a way to drag Jesus into the hot debate.
While I do not agree with HuckFinn's conclusion, his statement is correct. I would have worded it differently.
I appreciate your fairness ... I am especially taken by your reference to Deut. 22:13 (the virgin and the wedding night). ... as I said previously: I have been studying this subject for some time and have read much about Shammai's position but this is new information, I have never seen Deut. 22 referenced before. Thanks for your offering.
huck
Many people have improperly corilated that the "uncleanness" of Deut 24:1 and Matt 19:9 to them being in their "betrothal period" and not sexual immorality in the actual marriage.. Since Deut 22:13 indicates it was in the betrothal but Deut 24:1 does not ...
In Matt 5:32 and Matt 19:9 it is saying if a man puts away a woman (formerly his wife by Jesus saying they were "one flesh" which only happens after consummation) then remarries without knowledge of sexual immorality then he is guilty of "adultery". God became “one flesh” with Israel in Ez 16:8 where He said it was “time” for her “love” and He “spread” His “skirt” over her “nakedness” and entered into a “covenant”. If a man put away or known by the Jews as divorced his wife for sexual immorality, he was free to marry another as God divorced Israel in Jer 3:8-9 after she was clearly his wife by not only first becoming "betrothed" in the wilderness Jer 2:2 but entering into the "covenant" of blood of Moses becoming her "husband" Ex 24:7.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 2/1/2010 8:12:04 PM
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cure4divorce
Posts: 571
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tarox
I sense great theological minds at work here, and to be honest I've only digested this last page.
Just a question for huck, does your remarriage statement (the one in your signature) apply for widows and widowers as well?
Also, to be clear, is the issue of divorce in the air at all? Or have we settled that a divorce can be justified by adultery? As far as I can tell that's settled with a "yes" with the question now being focused on "can those who have divorced remarry?"
Also, do you guys think there's any room in this discussion for the "weak brother/ strong brother" idea? Maybe for one who feels convicted, remarriage isn't allowed, but another is freed by Christ's purchase to marry again?
Divorce or remarriage is a matter of doctrine given by God Gen chapter 2-3, Moses 24:1 commented by Jesus Matt 5:31-32 and 19:9, then to Gentiles and Jews in the Church 1 Cor chapter 7. The week/strong christian is in reguards to matters that if completely free to do something but you feel convicted in your concience than don't. Your concience does not give you freedom to do something where scripture clearly does not :)
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