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ORIGINAL: bolt.

I think you are misunderstanding the word 'discipline' -- it means 'to disciple'. Nobody has ever been capable of discipling someone without understanding... it would be like talking about swimming without water.

I think you mean to be saying that 'people who seek to solve the problem by punishing their children without understanding will either kill them (their heart, their spirit, their self-esteem, sometimes their bodies), or they will force them to rebel.'

That statement is entirely correct, which is why such a tactic is forbidden in the Bible, and therefore is considered a sin -- a sin against the child being so-treated, and a sin of disobedience against God (who specifically took that tactic off the table).

Understanding is the cornerstone of discipline. How can you influence a person that you have no grasp of how their mind works and no relationship with? And that responsibility, to find a way to understand and relate, falls entirely to the parent, who has been given the duty by God towards their children.*

(* By 'children' I mean infancy through physical maturity... young adults bear their own portion of responsibility during that phase of the relationship, even though our culture keeps them 'under our roof'.)

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Punishing is what happens. "Discipline" (as a verb) is what it was euphemistically referred to in my family. For several years of my life, I was conditioned to associate the verb "discipline" with harsh, irrational and unpredictable bouts of parental anger that resulted in punishment, whether physical or psychological that left me scared of my own parents.

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ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

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Punishing is what happens. "Discipline" (as a verb) is what it was euphemistically referred to in my family. For several years of my life, I was conditioned to associate the verb "discipline" with harsh, irrational and unpredictable bouts of parental anger that resulted in punishment, whether physical or psychological that left me scared of my own parents.

Punishing is what happens as a result of disobedience with the intended result in bringing back a right relationship. Punishment does not work if it is not fair, consistent and more importantly if the expectations aren't set. For discipline to be effective it needs to be rational and predictable, and not out of anger and it should not leave scars. That is abuse, plain and simple.

The tactic you are describing was never used by God, and if one thinks He was or is like that they have a lack of understanding of His character and the scriptures. Again God didn't punish people or nations to be mean, He punished them for their disobedience with the purpose of restoring a right relationship between him and them.

What you are describing by your own parents is called abuse.

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We have a veritable goldmine of tactics and techniques that can be used to punish or "discipline" our children, but what can we do to ensure that parents truly understand their children before punishing them?

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ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

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We have a veritable goldmine of tactics and techniques that can be used to punish or "discipline" our children, but what can we do to ensure that parents truly understand their children before punishing them?

As I said before, our in goal has to be to change behavior and restore right relationship with the individual being disciplined.

I think understanding a child is simple, ask why they did what they did and why they shouldn't do what they did. I also think that setting clear expectations and communication clear and graduated consequences.

Let me give you an example:

The rule in your house is "x" cleans the kitchen after dinner. They refuse, and flat out disobey. Their reason is they didn't feel like it. In my opinion they need to lose an activity, maybe the one they did instead for an "x" amount of time and they STILL are gonna clean the kitchen.

Lesson, just because you don't want to do something doesn't mean you just can't do it.

Lesson, you need to obey your parents and participate in house hold activities. The Bible says to obey is better than to sacrifice. And in this instance that plays out.

Anger doesn't need to be involved, beating and yelling don't need to be involved and the parent should hold firm and make sure the task is completed.

I would also say that the parent needs to make clear that the certain behavior is not acceptable and the next time consequences will be harsher,because again the goal is to change the behavior and bring back into right relationship.

G

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I know this was certainly the case when I was a boy. I said "I don't feel like it", but only because I lacked the verbal skills and maturity to say "Mom, I like the idea of a timetable, but after getting back from school I feel like I need a little relaxation time compared to the amount of chores laid out for me. Your timetable as it is makes me dread coming home from school!".

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I also consider that a child who has completed a full day of school has done their day's 'work' and that the home situation should be used to model how things work for a grown up in a home (how families relate well and care for their surroundings) rather than as a model of how things work in an employment situation (how to meet schedules and expectations).

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ORIGINAL: bolt.

When adults are responsible for their own living space they need certain skills, attitudes and strategies to motivate themselves. The same is true in most workplaces, where productivity is mostly unsupervised and not mandated in its precise details from above. I consider the arena of household chores to be an ideal place to learn these skills through instruction, trial, error and, yes, consequences. I find boiling that process down to, "Do it whether you like it or not. I said so." as if the only thing that exists in the real world is authority and punishment to be an unwise course of action.

Every adult has to care for their living space. They have to do it without supervision. They generally have to learn a variety of reasons to motivate themselves to do that. That's what responsibility means: to motivate one's self, not simply to recognize authority (even legitimate authority). It's wise to be teaching those things, rather than simple obedience.

Of course it is disobedience if the chores are mandatory in the home, I am simply pointing out that understanding in these situations can be a better choice than a simple command-and-consequence set up.

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The passages I was refering to are

Ephesians 6:4
"Fathers [parents] do not provoke your children to anger by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord."

Colossians 3:21
"Fathers [parents] do not aggravate your children, or they will become discouraged."

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We need to teach our parents how to parent instead of just telling their kids they have to put up with whatever a parent chooses to dish out. It's crazy.

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ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

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I know this was certainly the case when I was a boy. I said "I don't feel like it", but only because I lacked the verbal skills and maturity to say "Mom, I like the idea of a timetable, but after getting back from school I feel like I need a little relaxation time compared to the amount of chores laid out for me. Your timetable as it is makes me dread coming home from school!".

And my response would have been, there is still stuff to get done. Sometimes in life people put timetables on us, that my friend is life. I have to meet deadlines at work whether i like them or not. I have to come home and do stuff that needs to get done or go to work not because I find great joy in that but because i have to get it done.

If a parent asks a child to get something done, and they fail to do it then it's willful disobedience. They are disobeying what they have been instructed to do, in fact that is the root of rebellion. we have to teach young people today that sometimes we have to do things whether we like it or not, whether our self esteem is low or not, whether the time table fits ours or not.

On a side note as a manager, I see your scenario played out all the time. What happens if people follow the thinking you have laid out they think that when it comes to a job they can slack off if they aren't feeling good, or are having a bad day or the time table doesn't meet their expectation or the task is to difficult. I ask my employees all the time if they work have way do they get half paid?


Anyways your scenario with the chores, if you really have a problem with doing them the conversation needs to happen before the chore is set to happen. You can't come home and be like I am not feeling good I am not doing my set chores. That's WILLFUL disobedience, and doesn't please the Lord.

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But if a parent's response to a child's legitimate difficulties and stressors is "Too bad, there's work to be done", I see that as willful neglect on the part of the parent.

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ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

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But if a parent's response to a child's legitimate difficulties and stressors is "Too bad, there's work to be done", I see that as willful neglect on the part of the parent.

I agree with this. The question becomes who decides what is a stressor or difficulty?

Example: My sister and I polar opposites when it came to work ethic. My sister always had excuses (good excuses) why she couldn't do chores or work. Her excuse was she needed to focus on school, she really struggled, and my parents bent. Fast forward 8 years later, my sister now struggles as a single mother with 3 kids, a dead beat boyfriend and a decent job. The job has expectations. She has kids. They always don't agree. She doesn't understand that she can't excuse her way out of work. The result: not able to keep a job long.


I believe that parents need to be relational with their kids.. crying baby will be back

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I learned the value of trust and understanding upon reflection on my relationship with certain people- my grandfather, who I felt understood me better than anybody else in the world- I would be willing to lay bare my secrets with him.

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I would prefer a child who becomes a responsible productive citizen who does not like daddy all that much as opposed to a child who grows up loving daddy and whose only future consists of a prison cell and barring that lives a useless life.

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Discipline implies spanking.