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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 11:26:12 AM
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Rastus_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: DaveW
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved? My point exactly.
To me that is Jesus 'plus' obedience. If it is 'Jesus only' then obedience before or after is optional. I totally disagree with that attitude.
It's not optional if you have truly been made righteous through believing, alone in the same way it's not optional to get wet for swimming in your backyard pool. Getting wet is not the condition for swimming in the pool. It is the direct result and evidence of having been in the pool. Getting wet is not the prerequisite for swimming in the pool, no more than righteous works are the prerequisite for salvation. Righteous works are how we know you have in fact been made righteous through believing, alone, apart from works, just as Abraham was righteous before he did anything.
Ahh, I see. So it's "Jesus only" until you are saved and then it's "Jesus plus something else." I think I'm beginning to understand.
If it's plus anything else before or after then it is a works-based salvation and something you may boast about to God the Son. That's an old philosophy that soothes the human ego but it always fails.
I honestly believe people who get snared by this belief have probably never truly come to the end of themselves to understand just how gracious and separated from our works salvation really is.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 11:34:06 AM
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Rastus_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Ahh, I see. So it's "Jesus only" until you are saved and then it's "Jesus plus something else."
Not for a declaration of righteousness (salvation) itself, if that's what you are talking about.
The "Jesus plus something else" is what we will see after one has been declared righteous through believing, alone, (just as it was for Abraham). And in ever-increasing measure.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 11:35:38 AM
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Rastus_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MysterySolved
It is ironic and sad, to say the least, to see folks calling for obedience to Christ and in the same breath being disobedient by denying Christ and His sufficiency for themselves.
That is a tremendous irony!
Paul pulls no punches. It's a serious matter to think you are saved because of what you do.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 11:55:47 AM
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Rastus_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
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ORIGINAL: DaveW
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ORIGINAL: jjbird
Your premise is wrong to begin with.
In Galatians Paul deals with the Jew/Gentile controversy. Many Jewish Christians were trying to make the Gentile Christians become Jews first before they could partake in the Messianic blessings.
They tried to force the Gentile Christians to be circumcised.
That is what Paul is dealing with. Agreed. For information on what was going on (what the book of Galatians is addressing) read Acts 15.1.
Thanks for the cross-reference.
That is not the only thing the Galatians were guilty of. I would go so far as to say it's not even the primary thing they were guilty of. The matter of how to persevere in a justification by faith, alone, to the end is their big problem, for as Paul points out they had already accepted the message. They were deceived into thinking they had to add the various worship laws of the old covenant along with the message of Christ Paul had presented them. They did not know, but that belief actually removes Christ from the picture.
He taught them that it is not the worship laws that gets added to the message of faith in Christ and make it effective in salvation, but that it is the works of the law 'love your neighbor as yourself' that are added to saving faith, and not to make it salvic, but to prove the validity of persevering in the salvation through faith in Christ, alone, they started out with.
The point of this thread is we all have our own versions of external doings that we think we must add to the message of Christ to be saved. But the truth is, no added worship requirement means anything in that regard, and the thing that gets added to saving faith is love, and not for the purpose of being saved, but to validate the faith that prompted it. That is the invariable outcome of a salvation by faith, alone.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 4/15/2010 12:02:09 PM >
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 12:39:35 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
If it's plus anything else before or after then it is a works-based salvation and something you may boast about to God the Son. That's an old philosophy that soothes the human ego but it always fails. Grrr...
Euty, I am sure you are not thinking about what you are saying here. What this says is that you can believe in Jesus for salvation and then go on being a serial killer, serial rapist, drug pusher, bowing down to idols of satan, etc. and still be saved.
If I do not have to obey the gospel BEFORE OR AFTER confessing it, what am I saved FROM? Is it just the eternal consequences (hell) of my sins?
Salvation is a covenant. The NEW Covenant to be specific. Covenants have rules that we are expected to live up to.
_____________________________
Saphira went home from the hospital 11/2/11. She is VERY happy to be home. This pic was taken on her 4th birthday, just after another round of outpatient chemo.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 12:53:29 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
If I do not have to obey the gospel BEFORE OR AFTER confessing it, what am I saved FROM? Is it just the eternal consequences (hell) of my sins?
I wouldn't say "just" ...
I would agree that Jesus saves us from the wrath of God. I do see that as a result, we strive to live a sinless life, but we still sin every day in thought, word or deed. So...saving me from hell is not "just" imo.
And the only way I can be obedient to God's word is to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit helping me to do so. I cannot obey God on my own, it is the Spirit within me that does.
IMO, all the plus' are not really plus' at all but are a fruit (outward actions/appearances) of our salvation in that we live confessional and repentful lives, etc.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 12:54:11 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
If it's plus anything else before or after then it is a works-based salvation and something you may boast about to God the Son. That's an old philosophy that soothes the human ego but it always fails. Grrr...
Euty, I am sure you are not thinking about what you are saying here. What this says is that you can believe in Jesus for salvation and then go on being a serial killer, serial rapist, drug pusher, bowing down to idols of satan, etc. and still be saved.
If I do not have to obey the gospel BEFORE OR AFTER confessing it, what am I saved FROM? Is it just the eternal consequences (hell) of my sins?
Salvation is a covenant. The NEW Covenant to be specific. Covenants have rules that we are expected to live up to.
That is not what I'm saying at all. My salvation is NOT based on my goodness, my righteousness, my anything. Because I have been saved, I try to obey my Lord everyday in every way. But that obedience doesn't gain me a thing as far as salvation. Obedience is an evidence of, not a means to salvation.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 2:09:47 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
That is a tremendous irony!
Paul pulls no punches. It's a serious matter to think you are saved because of what you do.
So, is it true then, that we are saved by what we don't do or by doing nothing at all?
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 2:13:57 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
That is not what I'm saying at all. My salvation is NOT based on my goodness, my righteousness, my anything. Because I have been saved, I try to obey my Lord everyday in every way. But that obedience doesn't gain me a thing as far as salvation. Obedience is an evidence of, not a means to salvation.
OK, see if this fits -- Before salvation its "Jesus only"; after salvation its "Jesus plus" evidence or fruit or whatever you want to call it.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 2:18:01 PM
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MysterySolved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
That is a tremendous irony!
Paul pulls no punches. It's a serious matter to think you are saved because of what you do.
So, is it true then, that we are saved by what we don't do or by doing nothing at all?
Neither. You are saved by Jesus Christ.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 2:37:35 PM
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MysterySolved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
That is not what I'm saying at all. My salvation is NOT based on my goodness, my righteousness, my anything. Because I have been saved, I try to obey my Lord everyday in every way. But that obedience doesn't gain me a thing as far as salvation. Obedience is an evidence of, not a means to salvation.
OK, see if this fits -- Before salvation its "Jesus only"; after salvation its "Jesus plus" evidence or fruit or whatever you want to call it.
That would be fruit of the Spirit. Meaning produced by, and derived from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. It is still Jesus plus nothing.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 2:39:59 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
That is not what I'm saying at all. My salvation is NOT based on my goodness, my righteousness, my anything. Because I have been saved, I try to obey my Lord everyday in every way. But that obedience doesn't gain me a thing as far as salvation. Obedience is an evidence of, not a means to salvation.
OK, see if this fits -- Before salvation its "Jesus only"; after salvation its "Jesus plus" evidence or fruit or whatever you want to call it.
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 5:03:49 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit.
So why do you think I'm taking credit for His work and His fruit when I say baptism is necessary for salvation. I'm not taking credit for His work either. And yet baptism is consistently referred to as a work when the only work in it is God's work. Work that I refuse to take credit for. I guess what's good for your doctrine is unacceptable for mine.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 5:10:01 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit.
So why do you think I'm taking credit for His work and His fruit when I say baptism is necessary for salvation. I'm not taking credit for His work either. And yet baptism is consistently referred to as a work when the only work in it is God's work. Work that I refuse to take credit for. I guess what's good for your doctrine is unacceptable for mine.
I suppose baptism wouldn't be a work leading to salvation if Jesus is baptized in your place or, perhaps, He baptizes you Himself. It is a work if YOU do something. It's Grace if He did it for you.
That's why I do not believe that water baptism is part of or completes or has any place in being saved. If you must complete an outward act to receive salvation, then you have a works-based salvation.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 7:45:52 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit.
So why do you think I'm taking credit for His work and His fruit when I say baptism is necessary for salvation. I'm not taking credit for His work either. And yet baptism is consistently referred to as a work when the only work in it is God's work. Work that I refuse to take credit for. I guess what's good for your doctrine is unacceptable for mine.
I suppose baptism wouldn't be a work leading to salvation if Jesus is baptized in your place or, perhaps, He baptizes you Himself. It is a work if YOU do something. It's Grace if He did it for you.
That's why I do not believe that water baptism is part of or completes or has any place in being saved. If you must complete an outward act to receive salvation, then you have a works-based salvation.
OK. Glad to know that I have a works-based salvation, in your estimation. However, I believe the same thing you do regarding works as a requirement for salvation. Maybe we just define works differently. Apparently you think it is anything you do, which I don't agree with. I simply don't see in Scripture anywhere where God just suddenly zaps me completely unawares. I have to do something -- even if its simply have faith.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 6:22:48 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit. So - you have absolutely no say in what you do any more? You are a robot just going thru the motions of someone else's programming?
_____________________________
Saphira went home from the hospital 11/2/11. She is VERY happy to be home. This pic was taken on her 4th birthday, just after another round of outpatient chemo.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 7:06:41 AM
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Restored_Heart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit. So - you have absolutely no say in what you do any more? You are a robot just going thru the motions of someone else's programming?
No, that's not what he is saying..... Let me see if I can get it right.
I am going to use an imperfect example, because God is more awesome than what I can come up with to explain Him... 
Doing good after salvation is like doing things for the one you love because you love them.
I can be married to the one I love - I am married and if my spouse is perfect (as God is) in his love for me - he will love me no matter how I act. BUT if I truly love my spouse, I should WANT to do good things for them. I am married whether or not I do these good things, and these actions, since my husband is perfect, will not earn his love or keep him married to me. BUT if I do, the marriage is so much better.
NOW translating that to my salvation...
God saved me. I am saved through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation has changed my being (or at least it should have) so that I WANT to please my Savior. I WANT to be obedient and fruitful because I want to please my God. It doesn't make me less saved if I don't, but the relationship is more wonderful because I do.
_____________________________
It not that I don't think that the health care system needs reformation, but with the Gov't's track record, I fear that it will be like trying to sculpt a statute of my great-grandmother by using a shotgun.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 7:10:25 AM
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19ramman85
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit. So - you have absolutely no say in what you do any more? You are a robot just going thru the motions of someone else's programming?
No, that's not what he is saying..... Let me see if I can get it right.
I am going to use an imperfect example, because God is more awesome than what I can come up with to explain Him...
Doing good after salvation is like doing things for the one you love because you love them.
I can be married to the one I love - I am married and if my spouse is perfect (as God is) in his love for me - he will love me no matter how I act. BUT if I truly love my spouse, I should WANT to do good things for them. I am married whether or not I do these good things, and these actions, since my husband is perfect, will not earn his love or keep him married to me. BUT if I do, the marriage is so much better.
NOW translating that to my salvation...
God saved me. I am saved through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation has changed my being (or at least it should have) so that I WANT to please my Savior. I WANT to be obedient and fruitful because I want to please my God. It doesn't make me less saved if I don't, but the relationship is more wonderful because I do.
I think ya nailed it restored! We need to do thing - "Unselfishly", for Our Lord - just as He does for us!
-charles
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 7:16:31 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
You're missing what the OP is getting at. Just as the Galatians were deceived into thinking they must add outward work to the grace of believing to be saved (convert to Judaism in their case), so the OP asks what additions people today get deceived into believing that they must add to a 'salvation by faith, alone', that if they don't do that they cannot be saved. I suggested witnessing. Others said baptism. Are you kind of getting it now?
Like Abraham, people are declared righteous and saved when they believe, before they do anything. And also like Abraham, it is when we do 'things' we are confirming the presence of saving faith, not establishing it or adding to it. Abraham was considered (shown to be) righteous by what he did, not made righteous by what he did. This is plain Biblical teaching. If you do not, or cannot, show yourself to have been made righteous through believing by what you do, then you probably haven't been made righteous through believing. I can't think of any better way to put it.
The Jewish Christians were saying you must do the works of the law of Moses in order to be saved. That is the context of the passage. Paul is not ruling out obedience. He is ruling out doing the works of the law of Moses. There is a big difference.
Also the bible doesn't say when Abraham was saved. When Abraham is introduced to us in the bible he is already faithfully obeying God's commands.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 7:21:52 AM
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19ramman85
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Wouldn't it be safe to assume jj, that Abraham was always a Godly (thus saved) child/man, since his family was rather religious? (As compared to me, lol - I'm not very religious, btw)
-charles
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 7:54:04 AM
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neuronstatic
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I read a post in this thread that indicated baptism was required for salvation. First of all, that is non-Scriptural. Now that I have stated that fact, I can continue.
Also, I have read numerous statements about "obey the gospel" and "believe the gospel". The gospel is the good news of Christ, and to those that believe it, it is good news. To those that don't it is not. It is the statement of what Christ has accomplished through His work, not ours, that bridges the gap between God and us.
Now if one truly "believes" the gospel message, then they are a believer. But to "obey the gospel" is at best a useless phrase. One does not obey the good news message, they either believe it, accepting the free, no strings attached, salvation from God, or they don't believe it and remain unrepentant and therefore lost.
Now if one is a believer, they would of their own volition want to keep His commandments, though imperfectly for sure as we could never be perfect. If there was a human means to keep the Law on our own then there would not be a reason for Christ to have died in our place.
Now for one to believe, one has to have their spirit quickened so they can believe, because in our natural state, enemies to God, we cannot believe. In our natural state we are slaves to our sin nature, and we are called "dead" by the Scriptures. Since I have never seen a corpse asking for anything (except in the movies), I don't see how one whose spirit is dead to God could do enough to earn salvation.
But since God, who is rich in mercy, reached out, made us alive in Christ through salvation, we are no longer dead. I can find nothing in Scripture (old or new testaments) that contradicts this statement. It is not of our will, but His.
Now since we did nothing to earn it, we do nothing to keep it. God says that He will see keep and preserve us. That means that though we all will err many times, we always have our Father, and because of Christ, He does not look on us as enemies, but His own because He sees Christ's righteousness, not ours.
What this also means is not everyone who claims to be a believer really is, and over time, if that tree produces no fruit, it will be cut down and cast in the fire because it never was a fruit tree to begin with.
Those who are true believers will want to do their best to keep His commandments. And if we listen to the wise words of Christ, if we concentrate on loving God and loving others, we are going down the right path.
And finally, since salvation is a free gift we do not earn initially, and we do not earn the right to keep it, we therefore cannot un-earn it. When God saves a person, that person cannot usurp God's authority and thus lose their salvation. Using the example given in a previous post, if a man claims to be saved but continues in some sin, does that mean a believer can be a sinner and never lose salvation? Certainly not. It means the man in that situation is a liar.
It irritates me how people confuse the stated condition of a person with the real essential condition of a person. I could tell you all day long that I was a wombat, but no amount of saying ever makes it true. Quite frankly, there are multitudes of liars walking around claiming to be a Christian today. But they are fruitless and doomed to destruction.
So is it Jesus or Jesus plus something else? Well, it is God saving us through the work of Jesus alone. Nothing else.
_____________________________
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 8:11:19 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit. So - you have absolutely no say in what you do any more? You are a robot just going thru the motions of someone else's programming?
Dave, you seem to have free will confused with how one is saved. I have complete freedom of will within reasonable limits, but no "good" things that I do or don't do contribute a whit to my eternal destiny. Only God Incarnate could/can accomplish that for you, me, or anyone else. (Jesus stated that there is, after all, only One who is good and it wasn't either of us.)
While not scripture, the old hymn says it well:
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.
When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh may I then in Him be found.
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.
On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 8:19:50 AM
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DaveW
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Euty we are told in several places to "count the cost." I am not confusing free will with anything. I am saying that the person being saved must be aware and willing to change their lifestyle. If not, there is no repentance. I am not arguing over whether we able to to obey in our own strength or not - I'll leave that to another thread.
What I am saying there is a lot more than just "Jesus only." The OP seems to be saying that 'Jesus plus repentance' or 'Jesus plus faith' or 'Jesus plus obedience' is an invalid corruption of the gospel. And in your own words you put in the phrase "...before or after..." So I am taking that to mean there is no need for obedience before or after salvation.
I am disagreeing with that.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 4/16/2010 8:46:59 AM >
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Saphira went home from the hospital 11/2/11. She is VERY happy to be home. This pic was taken on her 4th birthday, just after another round of outpatient chemo.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 8:24:25 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
I can be married to the one I love - I am married and if my spouse is perfect (as God is) in his love for me - he will love me no matter how I act. BUT if I truly love my spouse, I should WANT to do good things for them. I am married whether or not I do these good things, and these actions, since my husband is perfect, will not earn his love or keep him married to me. BUT if I do, the marriage is so much better.
So if someone is married and they don't want to do good things for their spouse, does that mean they were never married in the first place? Because that's what "Jesus only" people say. They say that evidence, fruits, works, or whatever you want to call it, are not required for salvation but that if there is no evidence, fruits, works, or whatever, then that person was never really saved in the first place. When people say things like that it makes me think that evidence, fruits, works, or whatever, are necessary for salvation. Sorry, but that's just how it looks to me.
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<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/16/2010 8:25:35 AM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 532
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Jesus only before and after. I'm not willing to take credit for His work or His fruit. So - you have absolutely no say in what you do any more? You are a robot just going thru the motions of someone else's programming?
No, that's not what he is saying..... Let me see if I can get it right.
I am going to use an imperfect example, because God is more awesome than what I can come up with to explain Him...
Doing good after salvation is like doing things for the one you love because you love them.
I can be married to the one I love - I am married and if my spouse is perfect (as God is) in his love for me - he will love me no matter how I act. BUT if I truly love my spouse, I should WANT to do good things for them. I am married whether or not I do these good things, and these actions, since my husband is perfect, will not earn his love or keep him married to me. BUT if I do, the marriage is so much better.
NOW translating that to my salvation...
God saved me. I am saved through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation has changed my being (or at least it should have) so that I WANT to please my Savior. I WANT to be obedient and fruitful because I want to please my God. It doesn't make me less saved if I don't, but the relationship is more wonderful because I do.
Also, thinking about it some more, the actions I am compelled to do because of the change salvation has wrought in me - they are really to my benefit. These things help me to maintain my focus and help to grow my love and make me more like Christ.
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It not that I don't think that the health care system needs reformation, but with the Gov't's track record, I fear that it will be like trying to sculpt a statute of my great-grandmother by using a shotgun.
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