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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 7:00:39 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MysterySolved
Jesus plus nothing. So we do not need to believe the gospel, or repent, or obey scripture?
Is that what you are really saying?
After getting saved I can go on being an adulterer or serial killer or druggie or bowing down to a statue of Narquan and still be saved?
_____________________________
Saphira went home from the hospital 11/2/11. She is VERY happy to be home. This pic was taken on her 4th birthday, just after another round of outpatient chemo.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 8:36:37 AM
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MysterySolved
Posts: 469
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: MysterySolved
Jesus plus nothing. So we do not need to believe the gospel, or repent, or obey scripture?
Is that what you are really saying?
After getting saved I can go on being an adulterer or serial killer or druggie or bowing down to a statue of Narquan and still be saved?
I'm saying we need the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and He is all we need.
Jesus Christ does not lead those He indwells to do the things you list. If you believe He does then I would say your image of Christ is perverted at best.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 8:42:33 AM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 19ramman85
quote:
ORIGINAL: rmoore1925
The insidious part of this false Gospel in Galatians is that it didn’t completely
eliminate Jesus from the equation. It was a “Jesus plus” false message. Jesus
plus certain rules. Jesus plus certain practices. Jesus plus certain traditions.
What are some of the “Jesus plus” additions that get added to our faith these
days?
Forgive my ignorance - but could you give me the verse/chapter this relates too?
'Cuase this is the 1st I've heard of it!
Thanx! ;)
-charles
I know this is directed to rmoore, but I considered myself what chapter and verse would summarize what rmoore is saying and I would point to Galatians 3:3
3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
It may not be the best one, but it shows how the Galatians started out in faith apart from works, but, like so many who receive Christ, then picked up the burden of maintaining the free gift of our salvation by faith by adding the condition of works. Not that works aren't going to be added to a genuine salvation, and most certainly should be (Paul points out what those are). It's just that they also are secured in the same way the free gift of salvation was gained--by faith.
Works are the direct result of a continuing faith in Christ, not the means to a continuing faith in Christ. But so many of us fall into the trap of maintaining our salvation through our works to some extent or another. I've been there myself. What makes it especially difficult to overcome is when the works that one feels must be added to a free salvation (for the wrong reasons Paul shares) are the works of the worship laws. The very problem the Galatians were struggling under. But as I've said, we all have our own version of works we are tempted to add to the free gift of salvation we have received. For some it's witnessing. For others it's adhering to a specific doctrine, and so on.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 8:52:47 AM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: MysterySolved
Jesus plus nothing. So we do not need to believe the gospel, or repent, or obey scripture?
Is that what you are really saying?
After getting saved I can go on being an adulterer or serial killer or druggie or bowing down to a statue of Narquan and still be saved?
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?"
(Romans 4:1)
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 1:13:55 PM
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EJA
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Faith, good works, repentance, sanctification...Are all part of Jesus plus nothing.
We must understand that Jesus plus nothing produces something.
Hence the relationship between grace, faith and works as stated in Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are His creation—created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 1:31:22 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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A couple of veses for the "Jesus Only" crowd to consider;
(Luk 6:46) And why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?
And
(Joh 14:15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Do y'all really think that obedience to Christ is not part of salvation?
Thasks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 1:34:00 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
A couple of veses for the "Jesus Only" crowd to consider;
(Luk 6:46) And why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?
And
(Joh 14:15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Do y'all really think that obedience to Christ is not part of salvation?
Thasks
RC
Nope. Those verses tell us those who ARE saved will keep His commandments. You can obey commandments until He returns but that will not save you.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 1:39:44 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
A couple of veses for the "Jesus Only" crowd to consider;
(Luk 6:46) And why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?
And
(Joh 14:15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Do y'all really think that obedience to Christ is not part of salvation?
Thasks
RC
Nope. Those verses tell us those who ARE saved will keep His commandments. You can obey commandments until He returns but that will not save you.
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 1:43:27 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
A couple of veses for the "Jesus Only" crowd to consider;
(Luk 6:46) And why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?
And
(Joh 14:15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Do y'all really think that obedience to Christ is not part of salvation?
Thasks
RC
Nope. Those verses tell us those who ARE saved will keep His commandments. You can obey commandments until He returns but that will not save you.
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved?
Thanks
RC
Yes, we can agree on that. He first changes us, then we can obey Him.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 1:53:50 PM
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19ramman85
Posts: 217
Joined: 4/10/2008
From: Sandusky, MI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
A couple of veses for the "Jesus Only" crowd to consider;
(Luk 6:46) And why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?
And
(Joh 14:15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Do y'all really think that obedience to Christ is not part of salvation?
Thasks
RC
Nope. Those verses tell us those who ARE saved will keep His commandments. You can obey commandments until He returns but that will not save you.
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved?
Thanks
RC
Yes, we can agree on that. He first changes us, then we can obey Him.
Yup - 'cause ............. if we don't have Christ - "With us", then we are nothing more than a clanking bell, noisy horn deal!
-charles
_____________________________
Please visit my new poll and vote, and comment if ya want!
http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/m_4970403/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4970403
Thanx!
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 3:56:20 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lady_Daffodil
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Amicizia
'Jesus plus water baptism' is one of them IMO
I would agree. That is your opinion. It certainly isn't scripture.
But it does say in the 2nd chapter of Acts that those that want to be saved should repent and be baptized.
Absolutely. I was saying that his opinion was not scripture and therefore a false doctrine.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 4:02:40 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Those verses tell us those who ARE saved will keep His commandments. You can obey commandments until He returns but that will not save you.
And conversely those who do not keep His commandments are NOT saved. So, if you are saved you will be obedient. If you are not obedient you are not saved. Sure sounds like obedience is a requirement for salvation to me.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 4:14:10 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. Those verses tell us those who ARE saved will keep His commandments. You can obey commandments until He returns but that will not save you.
And conversely those who do not keep His commandments are NOT saved. So, if you are saved you will be obedient. If you are not obedient you are not saved. Sure sounds like obedience is a requirement for salvation to me.
Nope. You're confusing cause and effect. A duck quacks because it's a duck. Quacking continuously every day doesn't make me a duck. One must be born (again) as a duck to be a duck that quacks because it's a duck.
It's like some people's confusion over baptism. A Christian gets baptized because he is a Christian. Getting baptized twice a day for 30 years won't make one a Christian.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 4:24:40 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. You're confusing cause and effect. A duck quacks because it's a duck. Quacking continuously every day doesn't make me a duck. One must be born (again) as a duck to be a duck that quacks because it's a duck.
It's like some people's confusion over baptism. A Christian gets baptized because he is a Christian. Getting baptized twice a day for 30 years won't make one a Christian.
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/14/2010 4:32:32 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nope. You're confusing cause and effect. A duck quacks because it's a duck. Quacking continuously every day doesn't make me a duck. One must be born (again) as a duck to be a duck that quacks because it's a duck.
It's like some people's confusion over baptism. A Christian gets baptized because he is a Christian. Getting baptized twice a day for 30 years won't make one a Christian.
I agree Euty;
Take the most popular saved by Grace through faith passage;
(Eph 2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
Salvation is by Grace through faith; period.
But the good works come from and after the salvation; no good works, no salvation.
The same applies to a number of things, sin, baptism, being a witness unto Christ, etc.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 5:27:37 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rmoore1925
The insidious part of this false Gospel in Galatians is that it didn’t completely
eliminate Jesus from the equation. It was a “Jesus plus” false message. Jesus
plus certain rules. Jesus plus certain practices. Jesus plus certain traditions.
What are some of the “Jesus plus” additions that get added to our faith these
days?
Your premise is wrong to begin with.
In Galatians Paul deals with the Jew/Gentile controversy. Many Jewish Christians were trying to make the Gentile Christians become Jews first before they could partake in the Messianic blessings.
They tried to force the Gentile Christians to be circumcised.
That is what Paul is dealing with. Paul does not have baptism in mind.
Paul says baptism is when we are raised to a new life and when get into Christ.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 6:47:06 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3384
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved? My point exactly.
To me that is Jesus 'plus' obedience. If it is 'Jesus only' then obedience before or after is optional. I totally disagree with that attitude.
_____________________________
Saphira went home from the hospital 11/2/11. She is VERY happy to be home. This pic was taken on her 4th birthday, just after another round of outpatient chemo.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 6:49:12 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3384
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Your premise is wrong to begin with.
In Galatians Paul deals with the Jew/Gentile controversy. Many Jewish Christians were trying to make the Gentile Christians become Jews first before they could partake in the Messianic blessings.
They tried to force the Gentile Christians to be circumcised.
That is what Paul is dealing with. Agreed. For information on what was going on (what the book of Galatians is addressing) read Acts 15.1.
_____________________________
Saphira went home from the hospital 11/2/11. She is VERY happy to be home. This pic was taken on her 4th birthday, just after another round of outpatient chemo.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 7:25:06 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved? My point exactly.
To me that is Jesus 'plus' obedience. If it is 'Jesus only' then obedience before or after is optional. I totally disagree with that attitude.
Yes, I totally disagree with the attitude of "Jesus only" too. As you say that makes obedience optional -- as well as anything else that's evidence of a Christian life.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 10:08:18 AM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: rmoore1925
The insidious part of this false Gospel in Galatians is that it didn’t completely
eliminate Jesus from the equation. It was a “Jesus plus” false message. Jesus
plus certain rules. Jesus plus certain practices. Jesus plus certain traditions.
What are some of the “Jesus plus” additions that get added to our faith these
days?
Your premise is wrong to begin with.
In Galatians Paul deals with the Jew/Gentile controversy. Many Jewish Christians were trying to make the Gentile Christians become Jews first before they could partake in the Messianic blessings.
They tried to force the Gentile Christians to be circumcised.
That is what Paul is dealing with. Paul does not have baptism in mind.
Paul says baptism is when we are raised to a new life and when get into Christ.
You're missing what the OP is getting at. Just as the Galatians were deceived into thinking they must add outward work to the grace of believing to be saved (convert to Judaism in their case), so the OP asks what additions people today get deceived into believing that they must add to a 'salvation by faith, alone', that if they don't do that they cannot be saved. I suggested witnessing. Others said baptism. Are you kind of getting it now?
Like Abraham, people are declared righteous and saved when they believe, before they do anything. And also like Abraham, it is when we do 'things' we are confirming the presence of saving faith, not establishing it or adding to it. Abraham was considered (shown to be) righteous by what he did, not made righteous by what he did. This is plain Biblical teaching. If you do not, or cannot, show yourself to have been made righteous through believing by what you do, then you probably haven't been made righteous through believing. I can't think of any better way to put it.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 10:20:53 AM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved? My point exactly.
To me that is Jesus 'plus' obedience. If it is 'Jesus only' then obedience before or after is optional. I totally disagree with that attitude.
It's not optional if you have truly been made righteous through believing, alone, in the same way it's not optional to get wet for swimming in your backyard pool. Getting wet is not the condition for swimming in the pool. It is the direct result and evidence of having been in the pool.
Getting wet is not the prerequisite for swimming in the pool, no more than righteous works are the prerequisite for salvation. Righteous works are how we know you have in fact been made righteous through believing, alone, apart from works, just as Abraham was righteous before he did anything.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 10:25:22 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved? My point exactly.
To me that is Jesus 'plus' obedience. If it is 'Jesus only' then obedience before or after is optional. I totally disagree with that attitude.
It's not optional if you have truly been made righteous through believing, alone in the same way it's not optional to get wet for swimming in your backyard pool. Getting wet is not the condition for swimming in the pool. It is the direct result and evidence of having been in the pool. Getting wet is not the prerequisite for swimming in the pool, no more than righteous works are the prerequisite for salvation. Righteous works are how we know you have in fact been made righteous through believing, alone, apart from works, just as Abraham was righteous before he did anything.
Ahh, I see. So it's "Jesus only" until you are saved and then it's "Jesus plus something else." I think I'm beginning to understand.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 10:27:31 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
But we can agree that if one is not obedient to Christ then they are not saved? My point exactly.
To me that is Jesus 'plus' obedience. If it is 'Jesus only' then obedience before or after is optional. I totally disagree with that attitude.
It's not optional if you have truly been made righteous through believing, alone in the same way it's not optional to get wet for swimming in your backyard pool. Getting wet is not the condition for swimming in the pool. It is the direct result and evidence of having been in the pool. Getting wet is not the prerequisite for swimming in the pool, no more than righteous works are the prerequisite for salvation. Righteous works are how we know you have in fact been made righteous through believing, alone, apart from works, just as Abraham was righteous before he did anything.
Ahh, I see. So it's "Jesus only" until you are saved and then it's "Jesus plus something else." I think I'm beginning to understand.
If it's plus anything else before or after then it is a works-based salvation and something you may boast about to God the Son. That's an old philosophy that soothes the human ego but it always fails.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 10:45:33 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3475
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Your premise is wrong to begin with.
In Galatians Paul deals with the Jew/Gentile controversy. Many Jewish Christians were trying to make the Gentile Christians become Jews first before they could partake in the Messianic blessings.
They tried to force the Gentile Christians to be circumcised.
That is what Paul is dealing with. Agreed. For information on what was going on (what the book of Galatians is addressing) read Acts 15.1.
Thanks for the cross-reference.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 4/15/2010 10:48:11 AM
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MysterySolved
Posts: 469
Joined: 3/2/2010
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It is ironic and sad, to say the least, to see folks calling for obedience to Christ and in the same breath being disobedient by denying Christ and His sufficiency for themselves.
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