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RE: justification from our past - 7/4/2010 1:31:06 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Interplanner
Justification is always to apply to our past (we don't justify ourselves in advance!). Even at death it is our comfort. Process wouldn't quite fit the description. Nor trying to figure out what time it happened. No matter where we are, we use it for our past.
Marcus
producer www.interplans.net
related title THE GOSPEL I NEVER KNEW
I think the Bible says that we are "being saved" and "will be saved", as well as "we have been saved".
So I think it is a process, which involves our free will to continue and not turn back, which is the gift of God
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RE: justification from our past - 7/4/2010 2:00:57 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 6
Joined: 3/26/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
ORIGINAL: Interplanner
Justification is always to apply to our past (we don't justify ourselves in advance!). Even at death it is our comfort. Process wouldn't quite fit the description. Nor trying to figure out what time it happened. No matter where we are, we use it for our past.
Marcus
producer www.interplans.net
related title THE GOSPEL I NEVER KNEW
I think the Bible says that we are "being saved" and "will be saved", as well as "we have been saved".
So I think it is a process, which involves our free will to continue and not turn back, which is the gift of God
Amen! We hold it now by faith and will receive it when we remain in faith.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 7/4/2010 6:28:56 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 52
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rmoore1925
The insidious part of this false Gospel in Galatians is that it didn’t completely
eliminate Jesus from the equation. It was a “Jesus plus” false message. Jesus
plus certain rules. Jesus plus certain practices. Jesus plus certain traditions.
What are some of the “Jesus plus” additions that get added to our faith these
days?
The "insidious false gospel" as you put it is the gosel of works verses grace. It's clear in the scriptures that we are saved by grace and not by works. i'ts a free gift of God. I Galatians, the people Paul was talking about who were teaching this false gospel are the Jews who belong to the group known as the concision or circumcision. They were those jews who believed in Jes, but also said that you must still keep the law of Mose to be saved. This was the false doctrine, that you still have to be obedient to the rules to be saved. This applies regardless of what rules you are talking about. Jesus saves us, not our obedience to the rules. Too say otherwise is to say that Jesus' sacrifice was not enough for us. It's a slap in the face of Jesus and the great sacrifice He made for you, aND IT ALLOWS YOU TO TAKE CREDIT YOUrSELVES FOR YOUR SALVATION BECAUSE yOU CAN SAY, LOOK HOW GOD AND OBEDIENT i AM AND HOW MuCH i DESERVE SALVATION BECAUSE OF MY GOOD WORKS". I takes away some of the glory for your salvation from Jesus and puts it on yourselves. Well, let me tell you right now that your righteous ability to obey and keep the rulkes and do the right things amounts to nothing more than a pile of **** on the ground in God's sight. If you only obey the Lord for fear of losing your salvation if you don't then you are under the bondage of the law. That's what Paul was talking about in Galatians.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 7/5/2010 10:26:22 AM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
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7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. (Heb. 6:7-12)
From this passage we see that good works accompany salvation. They are the result of salvation, not the mover of salvation. The fruitlessness of thorns and thistles shows you may be in danger of damnation having never produced the result of being watered with the message of heaven, like you were never watered with the message to begin with.
Works are the result of a persevering faith. The inheritance is gained through the patience of faith, not the works that come from faith. Our works signify the patience of our faith and give us the confirmation and surety of our salvation by faith, not establish our salvation.
Laziness and unfruitfulness may be the signs you have never truly taken in and benefited from the word of salvation, and it leaves you in the unsureness of wondering if you really have or not. Productivity and fruitfulness are the evidences that show you really have received the word of salvation, and give you the confidence of knowing without a doubt that you have.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: justification from our past - 7/5/2010 11:06:15 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
Amen! We hold it now by faith and will receive it when we remain in faith.
Corrrect.
"see that a man is justifed by works and not by faith alone"
"he will render to each according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory honor and immortality through perseverance in good works"
Yet this is all purely the grace of Jesus Christ the Son of God
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RE: justification from our past - 7/6/2010 11:42:01 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
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Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
The bottom line of the issue is our motivation! It has to be trust in Jesus and not trust in self.
Romans 1:17 the righteous will live by faith
John 3:21 is another great example showing that obedience is necessary to be saved.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 4:52:53 AM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
Paul is not negating obedience as the required evidence of salvation. He is negating it as the way to get saved. You are not saved because you obey God. You obey because you are saved.
If your faith does not change your behavior then you have not been transformed by the Holy Spirit that God gives in a genuine salvation experience--you're not born again yet. You don't obey to get born again. That is what Paul is refuting. You obey because you have been born again. No obedience means no born again salvation experience to drive that obedience.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 11:11:34 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
Paul is not negating obedience as the required evidence of salvation. He is negating it as the way to get saved. You are not saved because you obey God. You obey because you are saved.
If your faith does not change your behavior then you have not been transformed by the Holy Spirit that God gives in a genuine salvation experience--you're not born again yet. You don't obey to get born again. That is what Paul is refuting. You obey because you have been born again. No obedience means no born again salvation experience to drive that obedience.
You are dead wrong.
You have to obey the command to believe and repent to be saved. Also baptism of course.
If you do not obey the command to believe you will not be saved.
The bible is clear that the Holy Spirit and salvation is given to those who obey!
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 11:17:50 AM
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ASharpSword
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
The bottom line of the issue is our motivation! It has to be trust in Jesus and not trust in self.
Romans 1:17 the righteous will live by faith
John 3:21 is another great example showing that obedience is necessary to be saved.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
This brought into rememberance the following verses.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Good stuff.
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 11:54:04 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
The bottom line of the issue is our motivation! It has to be trust in Jesus and not trust in self.
Romans 1:17 the righteous will live by faith
John 3:21 is another great example showing that obedience is necessary to be saved.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
This brought into rememberance the following verses.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Good stuff.
Yep! To say obedience isn't necessary for salvation is to diminish what Jesus did on the cross!
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 11:55:48 AM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
Paul is not negating obedience as the required evidence of salvation. He is negating it as the way to get saved. You are not saved because you obey God. You obey because you are saved.
If your faith does not change your behavior then you have not been transformed by the Holy Spirit that God gives in a genuine salvation experience--you're not born again yet. You don't obey to get born again. That is what Paul is refuting. You obey because you have been born again. No obedience means no born again salvation experience to drive that obedience.
You are dead wrong.
You have to obey the command to believe and repent to be saved. Also baptism of course.
If you do not obey the command to believe you will not be saved.
The bible is clear that the Holy Spirit and salvation is given to those who obey!
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
How long, jj? How long before you get it that the work of believing is inherent in the 'Jesus' part of what we're talking about here? The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey the gospel by believing it. You are saved when you perform the work of believing. No works beyond that play a role in securing a declaration of salvation that you get by believing. The works that come after that do not make your salvation, they confirm it.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 12:03:32 PM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
The bottom line of the issue is our motivation! It has to be trust in Jesus and not trust in self.
Romans 1:17 the righteous will live by faith
John 3:21 is another great example showing that obedience is necessary to be saved.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
This brought into rememberance the following verses.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Good stuff.
Yep! To say obedience isn't necessary for salvation is to diminish what Jesus did on the cross!
I'm amazed at your inability to see that works are not the condition for salvation. Faith of a quality sufficient to produce works is the condition for salvation. If your faith produces no works, the faith you have is not a faith that resulted in a declaration of righteousness. I can't help but to think you're purposely resisting what I think I am making very, very clear here. Do you think there is such a thing as a person who is transformed by the Holy Spirit because they believed in Christ and who then is not transformed?
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 12:07:20 PM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
The bottom line of the issue is our motivation! It has to be trust in Jesus and not trust in self.
Romans 1:17 the righteous will live by faith
John 3:21 is another great example showing that obedience is necessary to be saved.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
This brought into rememberance the following verses.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Good stuff.
And I ask you...do you think a person genuinely saved by faith now has a faith that is incapable of producing holy works in them? If your faith doesn't do that...you don't have the salvation by faith you think you have. You are still unsaved. Your 'belief' did not result in the giving of the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 12:38:50 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
The bottom line of the issue is our motivation! It has to be trust in Jesus and not trust in self.
Romans 1:17 the righteous will live by faith
John 3:21 is another great example showing that obedience is necessary to be saved.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
This brought into rememberance the following verses.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Good stuff.
Yep! To say obedience isn't necessary for salvation is to diminish what Jesus did on the cross!
I'm amazed at your inability to see that works are not the condition for salvation. Faith of a quality sufficient to produce works is the condition for salvation. If your faith produces no works, the faith you have is not a faith that resulted in a declaration of righteousness. I can't help but to think you're purposely resisting what I think I am making very, very clear here. Do you think there is such a thing as a person who is transformed by the Holy Spirit because they believed in Christ and who then is not transformed?
I agree that works are not a condition for salvation! I wholeheartedly believe that!
However I do believe that obedience is definitely necessary!
Both are biblically true!
Works unnecessary!
Obedience necessary!
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RE: justification from our past - 7/7/2010 4:19:29 PM
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ASharpSword
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
The bottom line of the issue is our motivation! It has to be trust in Jesus and not trust in self.
Romans 1:17 the righteous will live by faith
John 3:21 is another great example showing that obedience is necessary to be saved.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
This brought into rememberance the following verses.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Good stuff.
And I ask you...do you think a person genuinely saved by faith now has a faith that is incapable of producing holy works in them? If your faith doesn't do that...you don't have the salvation by faith you think you have. You are still unsaved. Your 'belief' did not result in the giving of the Holy Spirit.
I'm saying that faith doesn't exist until works are done. Hebrews 11 says "by faith" someone DID something. It wasn't until the action took place that faith could be given a voice. You seem to believe that at the point of faith, a person is changed on the inside and then shows that saving faith in works.
I completely disagree. I look at some Biblical examples to illustrate my disagreement. If all it took was for someone to have faith, and they began to change instantly afterwards, and began to produce works, I think that Noah wouldn't be such a unique figure. I think Noah believed and did what the Lord told him to, and out of his obedience to the Lord he was saved. His belief was the cause of him doing the work, but the work was essential to his salvation.
Naaman, he clearly believed what the messenger of God told him to do. Yet, it wasn't until he washed in the Jordan 7 times that he received his cleansing.
Again, I look at Paul, Paul didn't have his sins washed away until obeying the instruction given by Ananias. It was belief AND action. Not belief only, then action to confirm the belief, or show that belief.
I see this pattern throughout scripture. I suppose you see it differently, but to me it's repeated time and again.
The action doesn't cause salvation, it causes completion of genuine faith. Just as James writes, "can that faith save him?"
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RE: justification from our past - 7/9/2010 9:59:21 AM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Just because we are not saved by works does not negate the fact that we must obey Jesus commands' in order to be saved. When Paul is talking about works he is not negating obedience.
The bottom line of the issue is our motivation! It has to be trust in Jesus and not trust in self.
Romans 1:17 the righteous will live by faith
John 3:21 is another great example showing that obedience is necessary to be saved.
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
This brought into rememberance the following verses.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Good stuff.
And I ask you...do you think a person genuinely saved by faith now has a faith that is incapable of producing holy works in them? If your faith doesn't do that...you don't have the salvation by faith you think you have. You are still unsaved. Your 'belief' did not result in the giving of the Holy Spirit.
... You seem to believe that at the point of faith, a person is changed on the inside and then shows that saving faith in works.
Justification occurs when you genuinely believe in the forgiveness of God in Christ. We are recreated in Christ by the Holy Spirit when we receive the Holy Spirit. It's called being born again--made alive by the Spirit of God. It does not happen on the condition of performing works of faith first. Works of faith occur because you have been born again by the Spirit of God and will now be trained up into how to walk in that Spirit.
" 1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions" (Eph. 2:1-5)
"...God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Tim. 1:8-9)
If we all had to wait until our faith was fulfilled and perfected and brought to fruition in what we do before we could be justified and then saved, none of us would be saved. But we have God's assurance that "...he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6). And that hardly means an inactive, faith only relationship with God, "...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Phil. 2:13).
What you believe represents nothing more than the unsureness of works salvation. Been there, done that. I've got the tee shirt...tucked away in a bottom drawer with a sweater my wife gave me for Christmas one year.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: justification from our past - 7/9/2010 2:40:12 PM
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ASharpSword
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
What you believe represents nothing more than the unsureness of works salvation. Been there, done that. I've got the tee shirt...tucked away in a bottom drawer with a sweater my wife gave me for Christmas one year.
I think you misrepresent what I believe. I never have said anything about works salvation. Faith saves, works just complete that faith. That is my entire argument.
I hope that you can see where I'm coming from with some of the examples I've given. I thank you for being a good sport and engaging me on this topic. We could keep going in circles on this, and it would be fun for sure, but perhaps it's best to lay this one down. Hopefully we'll strike up another topic and argue for days on it! :-)
Peace, friend.
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RE: justification from our past - 7/9/2010 9:11:45 PM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
What you believe represents nothing more than the unsureness of works salvation. Been there, done that. I've got the tee shirt...tucked away in a bottom drawer with a sweater my wife gave me for Christmas one year.
I think you misrepresent what I believe. I never have said anything about works salvation. Faith saves, works just complete that faith. That is my entire argument.
The fulfillment and perfecting of faith when faith finds voice in works is okay. Where we differ is where in the 'faith to works' process one is justified, and where in that same process one is then saved. We Christians, myself included, too often mistakenly interchange 'justification' and 'salvation' as if the two meant the exact same thing, which I don't think they do, and that's becoming more apparent to me as I think about the things we've been tossing around here in the Salvation folder. Contrary to what some people think about these kinds of theological discussions I get inspired to deeper inspection and understanding of the Christian experience. You have done just that for me by sharing your beliefs.
quote:
I hope that you can see where I'm coming from with some of the examples I've given.
I was going to comment on some of the examples, but then decided to save it for later.
quote:
I thank you for being a good sport and engaging me on this topic. We could keep going in circles on this, and it would be fun for sure, but perhaps it's best to lay this one down. Hopefully we'll strike up another topic and argue for days on it! :-)
Peace, friend.
And thank you for being a good sport.
Maybe you can start a thread on the difference between justification and salvation, lol.
See ya 'round the forum.
Peace.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 7/10/2010 12:26:51 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 1052
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
Witnessing is very important to God, not to mention the basis of the great commission.
1 Peter 3:15 ...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, ...
Evangelism might be a spiritual gift, but for the rest of us, it is more of a matter of obedience, gratefullness wth thanksgiving for our own salvation.
But still...witnessing is not salvific.
those things are a part of the Jesus only package.
something like: Jesus + women must always wear a dress, or Jesus+ you cannot see a doctor, or Jesus + something that Jesus didn't teach or doesn't directly point to Christ.
I am sure there are tons of them that came with our culture that we deny exist.
I can't really think of any right now.
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RE: justification from our past - 7/15/2010 9:03:08 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
"...God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Tim. 1:8-9)
This is talking about the grounds of salvation not obedience.
We still have to obey the gospel in order to be saved.
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RE: justification from our past - 7/15/2010 11:10:31 PM
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Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
"...God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Tim. 1:8-9)
This is talking about the grounds of salvation not obedience.
What are "grounds of salvation"?
quote:
We still have to obey the gospel in order to be saved.
We must continue to believe in order to be saved. Our obedience is how we know we are doing that, and is what gives us confidence that we will indeed be spared on the Day of Wrath. What person, secular or religious doesn't act according to what they genuinely believe? In fact, that's how we know what a person believes--by how they act. You seem to be suggesting that it's different for believers in Christ, that they can genuinely believe one thing but act in a completely contrary way all the time. My point is, the world doesn't even do that!
I don't think that many people in the Church think that genuine saving faith leaves a person untransformed and not moving toward increasing obedience to Christ, even just a little. Many, many of us know the Bible teaches us to consider that person to not have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit through faith. Aka, an unbeliever. That's why they don't act...they don't believe. If they genuinely believed in the forgiveness of Christ and the judgment to come they would act like it. You seem to be suggesting that there is this kind of Christian who genuinely believes that, taking it to heart, yet doesn't act like it. I submit to you that person is an unbeliever, not as you believe, a Christian who thinks he has been saved by faith but who has no works or evidence of that faith, but is saved nevertheless. No such thing.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 7/15/2010 11:24:54 PM >
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“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
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RE: justification from our past - 7/17/2010 1:25:02 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
"...God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Tim. 1:8-9)
This is talking about the grounds of salvation not obedience.
What are "grounds of salvation"?
quote:
We still have to obey the gospel in order to be saved.
We must continue to believe in order to be saved. Our obedience is how we know we are doing that, and is what gives us confidence that we will indeed be spared on the Day of Wrath. What person, secular or religious doesn't act according to what they genuinely believe? In fact, that's how we know what a person believes--by how they act. You seem to be suggesting that it's different for believers in Christ, that they can genuinely believe one thing but act in a completely contrary way all the time. My point is, the world doesn't even do that!
I don't think that many people in the Church think that genuine saving faith leaves a person untransformed and not moving toward increasing obedience to Christ, even just a little. Many, many of us know the Bible teaches us to consider that person to not have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit through faith. Aka, an unbeliever. That's why they don't act...they don't believe. If they genuinely believed in the forgiveness of Christ and the judgment to come they would act like it. You seem to be suggesting that there is this kind of Christian who genuinely believes that, taking it to heart, yet doesn't act like it. I submit to you that person is an unbeliever, not as you believe, a Christian who thinks he has been saved by faith but who has no works or evidence of that faith, but is saved nevertheless. No such thing.
Grace is the grounds or basis.
And I have known folks who were obeying the gospel but yet trusting in themselves.......their trust wasn't in Jesus so they didn't last spiritually.
At one point there were trusting in Jesus but later started relying on self.
Obedience is evidence however only God really knows who's trusting in Him.
That's the whole point Paul makes with works.
IF you trust in yourself God demands perfection and you are damned.
If you trust in God while doing His works then you are saved and in a right relationship with Him.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 7/24/2010 11:26:02 AM
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Evangalist
Posts: 36
Joined: 7/22/2010
Status: offline
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Many try to add to Jesus but there is 1 message and only 1 that will save the sinner and sanctify him as well and that message is Jesus Christ and him crucified. The Galations focus shifted unto law. No man can be justified by keeping the law. And in fact, the law condemned if you tryed to live by it and couldnt keep it. This was the problem with the Galation. They were only justified because of there faith in Christ. But whenever your focus shifts to keeping the totality of the law, you have just place yourself under the law and will soon realize that you cant keep all of it. But this is y Paul preached Christ and him crucified. We are justified by faith and this is y he wrote the just shall live by faith.
1pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
(Christ and him crucified)=(The preaching of the cross)
This is the message.
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RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 7/1/2011 5:18:23 PM
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IXOYE_8
Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2011
Status: offline
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the Covenant of Law provided for atonement of sin but had no means to achieve life (salvation)
the Covenant of Grace provides for atonement of sin and does have a means (Jesus) to achieve life (salvation)
Hbr 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
Hbr 8:9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Hbr 8:10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Hbr 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant, " He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
After the Rapture (time of the gentiles is over) God will once again turn his attention to the Jews .. to which is WHY the two wittnesses appear .. to preach the Gospels to the Jews ..
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
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