|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 6:43:01 PM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
Sorry but if something you do is a work and works don't save you then belief is a work and you are not saved by believing. You legalist!
Oy Vey! jj still doesn't understand that the 'Jesus' in 'Jesus Plus Something Else' means 'Faith in Jesus Christ Plus Something Else'.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 6:47:24 PM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
Sorry but if something you do is a work and works don't save you then belief is a work and you are not saved by believing. You legalist!
Oy Vey! jj still doesn't understand that the 'Jesus' in 'Jesus Plus Something Else' means 'Faith in Jesus Christ Plus Something Else'.
Oy Vey Chainsaw still doesn't understand that baptism is exercising faith in Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 6:50:59 PM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
Jesus says about baptism
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Jesus is not talking about baptism...
..."Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh..." (John 3:4-5)
For someone who wants to educate me on how to study the scriptures you sure don't do a very good job with the fundamental concept of context.
Indeed the parts you've put in bold would seem to say that being born of water is synonymous with being born of flesh. However, if it is, it is the only time in scripture that being born physically is called anything other than being born of flesh.
Instead check this out:
..."Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh..." (John 3:4-5)
Do you see the the birth described in verse 5 is a single birth that involves both water and Spirit? It is not a birth of water and a birth of Spirit. It is a birth of water and Spirit. One birth two aspects.
Besides why would Jesus try to explain to Nicodemus that one of the requirements for entering the Kingdom of God is to be born physically. If that's what he meant, then who doesn't qualify?
So then you do believe that you must be baptized to see the kingdom? If we go with your understanding of John 3 then water baptism is most definitely required to be saved. Jesus said so.
If water baptism is how you get Spirit baptism because they are 'one birth' as you say, then salvation most definitely occurs because you are water baptized, contrary to your claim that you are not saying that.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 7:05:12 PM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
Sorry but if something you do is a work and works don't save you then belief is a work and you are not saved by believing. You legalist!
Oy Vey! jj still doesn't understand that the 'Jesus' in 'Jesus Plus Something Else' means 'Faith in Jesus Christ Plus Something Else'.
Oy Vey Chainsaw still doesn't understand that baptism is exercising faith in Jesus.
No, I understand you loud and clear. You say if I have genuine faith in Jesus Christ but I don't get baptized, I am not saved. Don't try to make it sound like you believe it's just an exercise of faith. You're making way more of it than that.
Remember, I'm the one saying that you are saved by genuine faith in Jesus, and that the exercise of that faith is the direct result of that faith being of a genuine quality, and which can save you all by itself before you do anything righteous. You have been plainly saying baptism is an addition to genuine faith that now makes that faith able to save you. That's ludicrisp, (as Mike Tyson used to say).
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 7:12:40 PM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
Besides why would Jesus try to explain to Nicodemus that one of the requirements for entering the Kingdom of God is to be born physically. If that's what he meant, then who doesn't qualify?
I already explained this.
Jews thought by virtue of being physically born into the kingdom of God, Israel, that they were already good with God. They didn't understand a true Jew is one inwardly. Jesus is correcting this common misconception among the Jews that mere birth as a Jew insured their place in the kingdom of God. I think you know the Bible well enough to know the various places Jesus warns the Jews about them being locked out of the kingdom. Total absurdity to a Jew confident in his lineage that goes back to 'their Father' Abraham. This is addressed by both Jesus and Paul.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 7:13:40 PM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
Sorry but if something you do is a work and works don't save you then belief is a work and you are not saved by believing. You legalist!
Oy Vey! jj still doesn't understand that the 'Jesus' in 'Jesus Plus Something Else' means 'Faith in Jesus Christ Plus Something Else'.
Oy Vey Chainsaw still doesn't understand that baptism is exercising faith in Jesus.
No, I understand you loud and clear. You say if I have genuine faith in Jesus Christ but I don't get baptized, I am not saved. Don't try to make it sound like you believe it's just an exercise of faith. You're making way more of it than that.
Remember, I'm the one saying that you are saved by genuine faith in Jesus, and that the exercise of that faith is the direct result of that faith being of a genuine quality, and which can save you all by itself before you do anything righteous. You have been plainly saying baptism is an addition to genuine faith that now makes that faith able to save you. That's ludicrisp, (as Mike Tyson used to say).
Just like Jesus said Believe and be baptized and you will be saved.
However if you don't believe you will not be baptized.
If you claim to believe and refuse baptism you are not a believer by definition.
Because biblical belief means trust....in order to rely on!
IF you do not rely on Jesus' teachings then you do not believe.
John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Jesus makes it clear.....FIRST after believing you hold to Jesus' teachings(obey) THEN you are really his disciples(Christian) THEN you will know the truth and SET FREE!!!
Free from what? SIN!!!! You are then saved!
You want it backwards when the bible teaches it much different than you think.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 10:11:01 PM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
Just like Jesus said Believe and be baptized and you will be saved. However if you don't believe you will not be baptized. If you claim to believe and refuse baptism you are not a believer by definition.
Okay, now you're coming around to a more rational argument. But even baptism is not a definitive proof that you believe.
quote:
...biblical belief means trust....in order to rely on!
IF you do not rely on Jesus' teachings then you do not believe.
You mean rely on Jesus' teaching of what constitutes correct, righteous activity to be saved? Pure blasphemy. No one is saved by keeping Jesus' commands to act correctly. The message of Jesus that we are saved by is the message of forgiveness through belief in HIM.
quote:
John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Jesus makes it clear.....FIRST after believing you hold to Jesus' teachings(obey) THEN you are really his disciples(Christian) THEN you will know the truth and SET FREE!!!
No. After believing, you hold to Jesus' teachings and thus SHOW you are really his disciple. As you live as a disciple of Christ you will know the truth and be set free from sin by that truth.
quote:
Free from what? SIN!!!! You are then saved!
You want it backwards when the bible teaches it much different than you think.
Who's got it backwards? You mean I have to be set free from the slavery of sin by first being obedient to Christ's teachings, and then I am saved? Getting saved is the beginning of your journey from sin to obedience. Salvation (actually justification) is not the end of that journey. If I had to wait until I didn't sin anymore to be justified...well...I'm not gonna make it, jj...and neither will you.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 10:29:42 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
If water baptism is how you get Spirit baptism because they are 'one birth' as you say, then salvation most definitely occurs because you are water baptized, contrary to your claim that you are not saying that.
True, Jesus did say that in order to enter the kingdom we must be born of water and Spirit. But water baptism is not how we get Spirit baptism. They are one birth. They occur together, simultaneously. One does not cause the other to happen. Water baptism does not cause Spirit baptism. Just because they occur at the same time does not mean there is a causative relationship between the two. There is a temporal relationship between the two because when we do one God does the other. But our doing what we do does not cause God to do what He does.
I feel like I'm not making my thinking very clear here, but its the best I can do this late in the evening. 
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/28/2010 10:53:59 PM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
Just like Jesus said Believe and be baptized and you will be saved. However if you don't believe you will not be baptized. If you claim to believe and refuse baptism you are not a believer by definition.
Okay, now you're coming around to a more rational argument. But even baptism is not a definitive proof that you believe.
I never said baptism is proof that you believe. People get baptized without trusting God all the time......doesn't mean you are saved.
Trust in God is the grounds in which we are saved. The moment when we are saved is when we trust God when we are immersed for the forgiveness of sins.
quote:
...biblical belief means trust....in order to rely on!
IF you do not rely on Jesus' teachings then you do not believe.
You mean rely on Jesus' teaching of what constitutes correct, righteous activity to be saved? Pure blasphemy. No one is saved by keeping Jesus' commands to act correctly. The message of Jesus that we are saved by is the message of forgiveness through belief in HIM.
What a contradiction you are!
You say no one is saved by obeying Christ yet Christ commands that you obey the ordinance to believe in order to be saved and you say we are saved by the message of belief!
Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy here?
You claim we are not saved by anything we do but you must do the belief! Oh the humanity! 
quote:
John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Jesus makes it clear.....FIRST after believing you hold to Jesus' teachings(obey) THEN you are really his disciples(Christian) THEN you will know the truth and SET FREE!!!
No. After believing, you hold to Jesus' teachings and thus SHOW you are really his disciple. As you live as a disciple of Christ you will know the truth and be set free from sin by that truth.
That's what I said.
quote:
Free from what? SIN!!!! You are then saved!
You want it backwards when the bible teaches it much different than you think.
Who's got it backwards? You mean I have to be set free from the slavery of sin by first being obedient to Christ's teachings, and then I am saved?
Only while trusting God. Obedience means nothing if you do not trust in Jesus.
And trust in Jesus is nothing if you do not obey.....This is a common theme in the NT!
quote:
Getting saved is the beginning of your journey from sin to obedience. Salvation (actually justification) is not the end of that journey. If I had to wait until I didn't sin anymore to be justified...well...I'm not gonna make it, jj...and neither will you.
I agree! I never implied that justification was the end!
Salvation is past, present & future! There are scriptures that backup all three!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 5:38:54 AM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
Just like Jesus said Believe and be baptized and you will be saved. However if you don't believe you will not be baptized. If you claim to believe and refuse baptism you are not a believer by definition.
Okay, now you're coming around to a more rational argument. But even baptism is not a definitive proof that you believe.
I never said baptism is proof that you believe. People get baptized without trusting God all the time......doesn't mean you are saved.
We all know that, jj. If a person does believe and gets baptized, is that proof they believe? Or is it only not getting baptized that signifies whether faith is present or not?
quote:
Trust in God is the grounds in which we are saved. The moment when we are saved is when we trust God when we are immersed for the forgiveness of sins.
From a purely experiential point of view, I wonder why God doesn't usually save people according to the pattern you are saying. Actually, I don't really wonder why. This is one of those cases where what's actually happening out there in the church experientially doesn't line up with the face value reading of certain scriptures. And this is what I meant where the actual evidence of experience forces one to reexamine what they at first thought those scriptures were saying.
quote:
quote:
...biblical belief means trust....in order to rely on!
IF you do not rely on Jesus' teachings then you do not believe.
quote:
You mean rely on Jesus' teaching of what constitutes correct, righteous activity to be saved? Pure blasphemy. No one is saved by keeping Jesus' commands to act correctly. The message of Jesus that we are saved by is the message of forgiveness through belief in HIM.
What a contradiction you are!
You say no one is saved by obeying Christ yet Christ commands that you obey the ordinance to believe in order to be saved and you say we are saved by the message of belief!
Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy here?
You claim we are not saved by anything we do but you must do the belief! Oh the humanity!
Aren't you kind of grasping at straws here, jj? Why can't you get it that this is about adding our personal efforts to act in obedience to specific commands in order to get justified. Think about it in the same way that what you actually get done at your job is your work, not your attitude and what's going on inside your head. That is what Paul meant when he said:
"...God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Timothy 1:8-9)
Obviously, this does not include having faith, or do you want to argue with Paul and his hypocrisy that I have joined him in?
quote:
quote:
John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Jesus makes it clear.....FIRST after believing you hold to Jesus' teachings(obey) THEN you are really his disciples(Christian) THEN you will know the truth and SET FREE!!!
quote:
No. After believing, you hold to Jesus' teachings and thus SHOW you are really his disciple. As you live as a disciple of Christ you will know the truth and be set free from sin by that truth.
That's what I said.
Come on, man, that's not what you're saying. You're saying it is my obedience to the necessary obligation to be sinless that gets me God's declaration of being righteous before him. I'm telling you my ever-increasing obedience in sinlessness is because I have first been justified by faith...all by itself. You're plainly saying justification is given based on the condition of obedience. You even took it way out of the scope of just baptism with the John 8 passage. Why did Christ die then? At best all you can say is he died so I can have the power to earn a declaration of righteousness through my own obedience. Really, jj?
quote:
quote:
Free from what? SIN!!!! You are then saved!
You want it backwards when the bible teaches it much different than you think.
quote:
Who's got it backwards? You mean I have to be set free from the slavery of sin by first being obedient to Christ's teachings, and then I am saved?
Only while trusting God. Obedience means nothing if you do not trust in Jesus.
And trust in Jesus is nothing if you do not obey.....This is a common theme in the NT!
You're not answering in a way for me to understand what you're saying. You are the one who has it backwards. I am not justified because I obey Christ in a sanctified life. I am justified because I have the faith to obey Christ.
quote:
quote:
Getting saved is the beginning of your journey from sin to obedience. Salvation (actually justification) is not the end of that journey. If I had to wait until I didn't sin anymore to be justified...well...I'm not gonna make it, jj...and neither will you.
I agree! I never implied that justification was the end!
Salvation is past, present & future! There are scriptures that backup all three!
I think you're missing the point. As gralan pointed out, the scriptures teach that we are first called, then justified, then sanctified, and then saved in the end at the judgment, at which time we will then be glorified.
A declaration of righteousness (justification) is why I will be saved on the Day of God's holy wrath. My sanctification in between justification and glorification is the result and evidence of first being justified through receiving the Holy Spirit. The Spirit, given to me to justify me by making me righteous in God's sight apart from what I do is what is now changing me, sanctifying me, transforming me into the image of Christ. I am not justified because I am cooperating with the process of sanctification. I am being sanctified because I was justified. Get it?
I was not made righteous in God's sight by my actions. No human being alive can do that. I was made righteous in God's sight by the Holy Spirit. It had nothing to do with my personal efforts to be righteous through the performance of righteous things. The righteousness of God given to man comes from him, not from us by what we do, nor in response to what we do. That is impossible. No one is that good. Our righteousness, the righteous things we do after receiving God's free gift of righteousness (by believing in Christ, not through activity) is the result of being first made righteous before God through the Holy Spirit and now being sanctified through that same Holy Spirit. Baptism, or any other action is not a duty and responsibility performed through which God grants his righteousness. Duties and responsibilities performed are the result of the righteousness of God given freely to us through believing, not the reason he gives us his righteousness.
Sanctification is the result of my justification because it is in justification that I receive the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. You are saying I get a declaration of righteousness by being sanctified. The Holy Spirit in justification is not given to us for being sanctified. Sanctification is working in me because I have the Holy Spirit in justification. The Holy Spirit is why I'm declared righteous before God, not because of what I do. And it was given to me for believing in Christ, not for doing something righteous.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 6/29/2010 6:06:41 AM >
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 8:18:33 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
From a purely experiential point of view, I wonder why God doesn't usually save people according to the pattern you are saying. Actually, I don't really wonder why. This is one of those cases where what's actually happening out there in the church experientially doesn't line up with the face value reading of certain scriptures. And this is what I meant where the actual evidence of experience forces one to reexamine what they at first thought those scriptures were saying.
If what is actually happening out there in the church experientially doesn't line up with the face value reading of certain scriptures, guess which one's wrong? I'll go with Scripture over experience every time. Experience is often wrong and this one of those times.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 9:34:55 AM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
We all know that, jj. If a person does believe and gets baptized, is that proof they believe? Or is it only not getting baptized that signifies whether faith is present or not?
It is not just one or the other or an either or situation.
quote:
From a purely experiential point of view, I wonder why God doesn't usually save people according to the pattern you are saying.
All over the world people are being saved according to the patterned I shared that is found in scripture. I see it every week in my city and congregation as well as in sister congregations.
We also see it occurring during the NT in scripture.
quote:
Aren't you kind of grasping at straws here, jj? Why can't you get it that this is about adding our personal efforts to act in obedience to specific commands in order to get justified.
That is not what I said nor is it what I implied. You said that not me. Go back and reread my comments.
quote:
Think about it in the same way that what you actually get done at your job is your work, not your attitude and what's going on inside your head. That is what Paul meant when he said:
"...God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Timothy 1:8-9)
Not sure if you are even cognizant of the context here in 2 Tim.
quote:
Come on, man, that's not what you're saying. You're saying it is my obedience to the necessary obligation to be sinless that gets me God's declaration of being righteous before him.
NO NO NO NO NO! That isn't even what I am remotely saying!
I am saying be faithful as you obey! Rely on Christ not yourself as you obey. That is called faith!
quote:
You're not answering in a way for me to understand what you're saying. You are the one who has it backwards. I am not justified because I obey Christ in a sanctified life. I am justified because I have the faith to obey Christ.
Same thing!
If you have faith then you are obeying the command to believe. Obeying that command to believe results in justification.
quote:
I think you're missing the point. As gralan pointed out, the scriptures teach that we are first called, then justified, then sanctified, and then saved in the end at the judgment, at which time we will then be glorified.
There is no proof that Romans vv.29-30 are a chronological sequence. Foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified -- how are these terms to be understood?
To God, who is not "inside" time, there is no past, present, or future. He knows what we will (from our perspective) do because he presently (in his timeless perspective) sees us doing it. This his foreknowledge is based firmly on our free-will decisions.
God predestines us to be transformed, to increasingly take on the character of Christ. (Turn back to 5:3-5.)
We are called to Christ through the gospel. (See 2 Thessalonians 2:14.)
We are justified though the blood of Christ when we respond to the gospel.
At the end of time, we will enter into our Master's glory. (See John's gospel for more on this.)
quote:
I was not made righteous in God's sight by my actions. No human being alive can do that. I was made righteous in God's sight by the Holy Spirit. It had nothing to do with my personal efforts to be righteous through the performance of righteous things.
It never has anything to do with performance! I am not talking about performing or working or earning.
I am talking about how we receive God's grace on His terms! We do not set the terms! God is our King not us!
When we surrender our lives to the King we do so on His terms!
quote:
The Holy Spirit is why I'm declared righteous before God, not because of what I do. And it was given to me for believing in Christ, not for doing something righteous.
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 9:54:42 AM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
From a purely experiential point of view, I wonder why God doesn't usually save people according to the pattern you are saying. Actually, I don't really wonder why. This is one of those cases where what's actually happening out there in the church experientially doesn't line up with the face value reading of certain scriptures. And this is what I meant where the actual evidence of experience forces one to reexamine what they at first thought those scriptures were saying.
If what is actually happening out there in the church experientially doesn't line up with the face value reading of certain scriptures, guess which one's wrong? I'll go with Scripture over experience every time. Experience is often wrong and this one of those times.
There is no way I will let you tell me I was not forgiven and did not receive the Holy Spirit the moment I was done asking God to forgive me. It was 10:30 at night in January, on the far northern border of the US, in my home, and I did not have even a shred of knowledge about baptism...not so much as a hint of knowledge about it. I think it's totally out of line to tell me I'm mistaken about my experience just because of the side of the baptism argument you have chosen to take in an argument that has been floating around in the church for centuries in clear defiance of the actual experience of so many, many, many, people.
Circumcision of the heart is like literal circumcision. The person who has it is the one who knows whether or not he's been circumcised.
"...this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." (1 John 3:24)
16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (Romans 8:16)
I have this testimony in my heart, and I had it on the night I asked God to forgive me in Christ...two months before I was water baptized.
And don't tell me, "well, that's how it was for you then." If even one person is forgiven and sealed as a child of God by the Holy Spirit before being baptized that removes the argument that is THE way God saves people. It may certainly be A way he saves people (I know at least one person with that testimony, and have heard of a couple others), but it is haaaaardly (I can't stress it enough) hard and fast doctrine that you must make people believe and conform to. That's ridiculous!
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 10:52:49 AM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
|
Chainsaw
Please consider Acts 18:24-26 Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.
I encourage you to have a heart like Apollos did!
He wasn't prideful and defensive.....he was humble even though he had a thorough knowledge of Scriptures!
See you teach about Jesus accurately however you needed the way of God explained to you more adequately.
Besides why is it so threatening to learn that you weren't saved until you were baptized? The 3000 didn't deny being saved at Pentecost in Acts 2 at baptism why should you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 11:07:48 AM
|
|
|
ASharpSword
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
|
I can sort of see where ChainSaw is coming from, but I still think there is this demand to categorize baptism as a meritorious work of some sort.
A few things.
What IS baptism? What does it MEAN? Answer those questions from scripture and I think those things will become clearer.
James says something very profound in this verse.
James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Can "that" faith save him? A faith that works saves, a faith that doesn't, doesn't save.
In other words, the works must happen before salvation can be possessed.
Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
I think this verse sums it up quite nicely. Having been buried with Him in baptism, like Romans 6:3-8 says. In which we were ALSO raised up with Him through faith. Hmmm... so we're buried in baptism and we rise up THROUGH FAITH. If one cannot see the blatant connection between baptism and faith here, I don't know what else could be said.
In other words, delaying baptism, or minimalizing baptism is, to me, tantamount to minimalizing faith in God.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 11:49:53 AM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ASharpSword
I can sort of see where ChainSaw is coming from, but I still think there is this demand to categorize baptism as a meritorious work of some sort.
A few things.
What IS baptism? What does it MEAN? Answer those questions from scripture and I think those things will become clearer.
James says something very profound in this verse.
James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Can "that" faith save him? A faith that works saves, a faith that doesn't, doesn't save.
In other words, the works must happen before salvation can be possessed.
Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
I think this verse sums it up quite nicely. Having been buried with Him in baptism, like Romans 6:3-8 says. In which we were ALSO raised up with Him through faith. Hmmm... so we're buried in baptism and we rise up THROUGH FAITH. If one cannot see the blatant connection between baptism and faith here, I don't know what else could be said.
In other words, delaying baptism, or minimalizing baptism is, to me, tantamount to minimalizing faith in God.
I didn't ignore your previous post. It's just hard to address everything posted.
The James passage is so terribly misunderstood. I understand perfectly why Luther hated the book. It takes so much articulation to explain that James is not in opposition to Paul at all. In fact very, very much in agreement with Paul. But once you see that you see how simple what James is saying really is...and entirely consistent with Paul.
James is not saying the addition of works now makes faith able to save where it could not before without those works, no matter how real and sincere that faith is. He is saying the addition of works shows you have the faith that saves. The faith that genuinely changes your behavior in accordance with the Holy Spirit, given to you in a genuine salvation experience, and according to the character of Christ is the faith that is alive and which can save you. A change of behavior does not now categorically make a faith that could not save you before now able to save you. The change of behavior is the result of the faith that saves, not what makes faith able to save.
I do truly believe that submitting to baptism is ultimately a show of faith. But, like in the example of James' teaching, it does not now make a faith that could not save you now able to save you.
The way baptism is used in the Bible to illustrate salvation is figurative. Easy to understand when you consider, as you say, baptism is generally completed in obedience to God because people have placed their faith in Christ. In the early church, more so then it is now, everyone who believed got baptized very close to the time they believed. It is the common experience all believers had, and the visible, tangible connection with salvation, that makes it possible for the Bible to use it figuratively as the agent of our justification.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 6/29/2010 12:02:41 PM >
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 11:57:18 AM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Besides why is it so threatening to learn that you weren't saved until you were baptized? The 3000 didn't deny being saved at Pentecost in Acts 2 at baptism why should you?
You are teaching a works salvation. And it oozes out in everything else you think about Christ and salvation and living for God--that your justification is ultimately based on what you do, not what you believe. The Bible is very clear on this. You make Christ of no value when you do that. Paul's warning to the Galatian and the Hebrew congregations is no light matter of correction but very stern as to where that can lead.
To start a new believer out right from the get-go that their justification hinges on what they do, no matter how subtle, is very, very dangerous. You will never find that I'm guilty of predisposing someone to believing that their justification is ultimately based on what they do. Not me brother/sister/or other.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 12:06:37 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
There is no way I will let you tell me I was not forgiven and did not receive the Holy Spirit the moment I was done asking God to forgive me. It was 10:30 at night in January, on the far northern border of the US, in my home, and I did not have even a shred of knowledge about baptism...not so much as a hint of knowledge about it. I think it's totally out of line to tell me I'm mistaken about my experience just because of the side of the baptism argument you have chosen to take in an argument that has been floating around in the church for centuries in clear defiance of the actual experience of so many, many, many, people.
I apologize for giving you the impression that I was doubting your experience. I didn't mean to say that your experience wasn't real. I do believe that God can certainly save people who are unaware of baptism, but once a person knows about baptism they need to follow through and be baptized. I also think that God saving someone without baptism is an exception to what He teaches as the way of salvation in His word.
Nevertheless in my own life experience never trumps Scripture -- NEVER!! But I'm not saying that necessarily has to be true for everyone else.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 12:31:36 PM
|
|
|
ASharpSword
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
I didn't ignore your previous post. It's just hard to address everything posted.
The James passage is so terribly misunderstood. I understand perfectly why Luther hated the book. It takes so much articulation to explain that James is not in opposition to Paul at all. In fact very, very much in agreement with Paul. But once you see that you see how simple what James is saying really is...and entirely consistent with Paul.
James is not saying the addition of works now makes faith able to save where it could not before without those works, no matter how real and sincere that faith is. He is saying the addition of works shows you have the faith that saves. The faith that genuinely changes your behavior in accordance with the Holy Spirit, given to you in a genuine salvation experience, and according to the character of Christ is the faith that is alive and which can save you. A change of behavior does not now categorically make a faith that could not save you before now able to save you. The change of behavior is the result of the faith that saves, not what makes faith able to save.
I do truly believe that submitting to baptism is ultimately a show of faith. But, like in the example of James' teaching, it does not now make a faith that could not save you now able to save you.
The way baptism is used in the Bible to illustrate salvation is figurative. Easy to understand when you consider, as you say, baptism is generally completed in obedience to God because people have placed their faith in Christ. In the early church, more so then it is now, everyone who believed got baptized very close to the time they believed. It is the common experience all believers had, and the visible, tangible connection with salvation, that makes it possible for the Bible to use it figuratively as the agent of our justification.
I would never accuse you of ignoring. It's all good, and I know you're responding to several different posts.
I think James is perfectly in harmony with Paul as well. Paul isn't saying that works aren't necessary. He's saying, as I've tried to demonstrate before, that obedience to a law will not save anyone, it's Christ that saves and that's through faith. What James is trying to do is tell us what type of faith is required.
This is what kicks off Paul's point in Romans.
Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Then we go on to read about Abraham, who had faith in God before he was circumsized, apart from the Law. A lot of Paul's writing is a diatribe against Jewish Christians for binding observances of the Law of Moses on others.
I honestly think you're taking what Paul is saying way out of context which then forces you to take James out of context. I think James is brutally simple in what he says in chapter 2 of the book.
Now, I know you're not trying to say that works aren't necessary, but what you are saying is that faith saves and then is evidenced by what we do. James is not saying that at all. James is actually marrying faith and works together. Not apart, but together. I do not think it's possible that one can have faith alone and be saved and THEN do works as evidence of that salvation, which is what I believe you're supporting. James doesn't say that, Paul doesn't say that either.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 12:31:43 PM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Besides why is it so threatening to learn that you weren't saved until you were baptized? The 3000 didn't deny being saved at Pentecost in Acts 2 at baptism why should you?
You are teaching a works salvation.
You are saved on the grounds of grace through faith. That is what I teach and wholeheartedly believe. So you are mischaracterizing me and my beliefs.
quote:
And it oozes out in everything else you think about Christ and salvation and living for God--that your justification is ultimately based on what you do, not what you believe.
Salvation is based on grace through faith not what you do. Faith includes obedience.
Obedience is never defined as works in the bible.
quote:
The Bible is very clear on this. You make Christ of no value when you do that. Paul's warning to the Galatian and the Hebrew congregations is no light matter of correction but very stern as to where that can lead.
Nope you are wrong.
Paul warns the Galatians and Romans and other churches that you cannot be saved by works of the law of Moses.
Paul never once mentions obedience to Christ. He is speaking of OT laws that many Jewish Christians tried to make Gentile Christians obey in order to be saved.
Read Acts 15.
You taking scripture out of context has led you to false doctrine and is very dangerous.
quote:
To start a new believer out right from the get-go that their justification hinges on what they do, no matter how subtle, is very, very dangerous. You will never find that I'm guilty of predisposing someone to believing that their justification is ultimately based on what they do. Not me brother/sister/or other.
I never start a new believer that justification hinges on what they do but on faith in Christ.
If there is no faith then there is no obedience.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 6:09:32 PM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
From a purely experiential point of view, I wonder why God doesn't usually save people according to the pattern you are saying.
All over the world people are being saved according to the patterned I shared that is found in scripture. I see it every week in my city and congregation as well as in sister congregations.
We also see it occurring during the NT in scripture.
Well of course you're going to have that testimony in the churches that teach what you believe and have a baptismal in every pew, lol.
The true test of whether it's possible to receive the Spirit in salvation outside of water baptism (if you're going to ignore it in the Bible) is where there's room to find that out, and where that particular agenda is not constantly being taught as a central tenant of their beliefs (I've attended these churches and their weekly home meetings). Contrary to what you're going to say, these churches seem to exist and separate themselves solely in service of the 'no salvation without baptism' agenda. The rest of us have the genuine experience of not receiving the Spirit in salvation at baptism along with a smattering of those who testify to receiving it as they came up out of the water--just as both happened in Acts.
And may I remind you, your doctrine is the fringe doctrine in the church, not mine that you should patronize me with some kind of similarity to Apollos, a knowledgeable but inadequately informed minister of the gospel. What I believe hardly represents the isolated ministry of a sole Apollos who needs a more adequate mainstream explanation of the way of God.
quote:
quote:
Aren't you kind of grasping at straws here, jj? Why can't you get it that this is about adding our personal efforts to act in obedience to specific commands in order to get justified.
That is not what I said nor is it what I implied. You said that not me. Go back and reread my comments.
I know you say baptism is not a work (ahem), but how you discourse on John 8 is very telling about what you believe about salvation and works, even though you essentially deny the obvious in what you say. Do you think it's coincidental that folks who believe you are saved during the act of water baptism also interpret James 2 the same way and believe you must be an obedient Christian as a condition in and of itself for salvation?
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 8:10:04 PM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 869
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Hotlanta Ga.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
Well of course you're going to have that testimony in the churches that teach what you believe and have a baptismal in every pew, lol.
And of course you are going to have that testimony in the churches that teach what you believe. So which is true? Both? Yours? Mine?
What does scripture teach?
Peter says EXPLICITLY to Jews who believed the message to repent and be baptized and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and forgiveness of sins.
But you so conveniently like to read around that passage of the bible!
quote:
The rest of us have the genuine experience of not receiving the Spirit in salvation at baptism along with a smattering of those who testify to receiving it as they came up out of the water--just as both happened in Acts.
Both did not happen in Acts. People in Acts were saved when they faithfully responded to the message by being immersed for the forgiveness of sins.
Romans 6 teaches that baptism is a participation in the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus Christ.
quote:
And may I remind you, your doctrine is the fringe doctrine in the church, not mine that you should patronize me with some kind of similarity to Apollos, a knowledgeable but inadequately informed minister of the gospel. What I believe hardly represents the isolated ministry of a sole Apollos who needs a more adequate mainstream explanation of the way of God.
Fringe? I would say its the other way around. This is not a popularity contest. Jesus' teaching wasn't very popular with the religious world either. Wasn't mainstream!
Mainstream doesn't equate to being right.
quote:
I know you say baptism is not a work (ahem), but how you discourse on John 8 is very telling about what you believe about salvation and works, even though you essentially deny the obvious in what you say.
Jesus says IF YOU HOLD TO MY TEACHINGS YOU ARE REALLY HIS DISCIPLES.
I didn't say that Jesus did!
Besides this all boils down to how you define works.
By your definition of (works being anything you do) you make yourself out to be a hypocrite and Jesus a legalist.
Anything you do are works and damn you biblically according to you.
Well you have to believe in order to be saved. You have to obey that command in the bible.
quote:
Do you think it's coincidental that folks who believe you are saved during the act of water baptism also interpret James 2 the same way and believe you must be an obedient Christian as a condition in and of itself for salvation?
Being obedient most certainly is a condition for salvation.
Doing works of the law is not a condition under the NT.
However Jesus has a NT law.
Jesus is King! And as Jesus' subjects we must submit and obey his Laws to be a part of His divine and Holy kingdom!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 9:58:51 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 2159
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
And of course you are going to have that testimony in the churches that teach what you believe. So which is true? Both? Yours? Mine?
What does scripture teach?
I'm beginning to get the impression that it doesn't much matter what Scripture teaches as long as we have our experience. We must make Scripture correspond to our experiences, not the other way around.
Of course, I am diametrically opposed to such a position. As far as I'm concerned experience never trumps scripture and where there is a discrepancy between my experience and scripture, I will examine my experience before I will dismiss Scripture. Apparently not everyone thinks like that, though.
_____________________________
<<< me, leading the ABC song during VBS
greatdivide46
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, 'I am only joking!'". Proverbs 26:18-19
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 10:01:28 PM
|
|
|
patricius79
Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
If water baptism is how you get Spirit baptism because they are 'one birth' as you say, then salvation most definitely occurs because you are water baptized, contrary to your claim that you are not saying that.
True, Jesus did say that in order to enter the kingdom we must be born of water and Spirit. But water baptism is not how we get Spirit baptism. They are one birth. They occur together, simultaneously. One does not cause the other to happen. Water baptism does not cause Spirit baptism. Just because they occur at the same time does not mean there is a causative relationship between the two. There is a temporal relationship between the two because when we do one God does the other. But our doing what we do does not cause God to do what He does.
I feel like I'm not making my thinking very clear here, but its the best I can do this late in the evening.
I'm perplexed, man, because I thought you accepted the Bible's teaching that baptism saves.
Now this is not "Jesus plus such and such" anymore than being saved through reading the bIBLE IS "jESUS Plus reading the Bible".
We are saved purely by the grace of Jesus Christ, to which nobody adds anything. This grace includes sacramental baptism (for many of us, at least), as well as the Scriptures, our preachers, etc
|
|
|
|
|
RE: JESUS PLUS SOMETHING ELSE? - 6/29/2010 10:23:12 PM
|
|
|
Rastus_
Posts: 2357
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
And of course you are going to have that testimony in the churches that teach what you believe. So which is true? Both? Yours? Mine?
What does scripture teach?
I'm beginning to get the impression that it doesn't much matter what Scripture teaches as long as we have our experience. We must make Scripture correspond to our experiences, not the other way around.
Of course, I am diametrically opposed to such a position. As far as I'm concerned experience never trumps scripture and where there is a discrepancy between my experience and scripture, I will examine my experience before I will dismiss Scripture. Apparently not everyone thinks like that, though.
The problem with what you're saying you assume your understanding of scripture is the correct one by which all experiences can be measured. You are making a big, big mistake if you never examine what you are sure scripture is really saying because real life experience isn't lining up with it. That is just as big a mistake as the person who never examines the experience he was sure was so right when he learns it isn't lining up with scripture.
What's so ridiculous about the baptism argument is we have a very clear example in the Bible of Cornelius receiving the message of the gospel "by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:14) from Peter in which he and his family receive the Holy Spirit before and completely separate from the act of water baptism. Your doctrine is the one that doesn't stand hard and fast and absolute scripturally, nor experientially. It loses on both counts. And I'm supposed to believe it and share it with others? I could not do that with a clear conscience. Especially since my own personal experience with receiving the Holy Spirit is the same as Corn's.
_____________________________
“And now I will show you the most excellent way.” (1 Corinthians 12:30)
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
