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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/26/2010 9:36:09 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: philadelphian
Walter,
Please explain the following according to the therapeutic view:
quote:
and they were judged every man according to their works. To understand, it helps to stop seeing it from only one point of view, especially when it is the wrong one. I know this is hard, if this is all we have known all of our life. But, look at it from a proper angle, where it looks much clearer, and you will see every person is experiencing the consequences (judged) of what they did (works). And they were burned (judged) according to them walking into the fire (works).
This kind of reminds me of flies flying to a fly lamp. I don't think it is the intention of the flies to get burned. They are mesmerized at something that seems beautiful, and are attracted to it. And despite the danger, they still fly to it. Unfortunately, every fly will be judged (burned) according to their works (flying to the fly lamp).
In any case, try to understand the Holy Scripture with therapeutic lenses instead of a juridical one; I believe it will be much clearer.
I hope maybe another Orthodox can better explain this than I can.
_____________________________
St. Athanasios the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/26/2010 10:18:01 PM
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philadelphian
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To me "judged" implies juridical or judgmental one not therapeutic. It looks like you are trying to make it say something it doesn't say to make it conform to the therapeutic model. What scripture gives you the authority to make such a presupposition? Also, don't people sin deliberately? The very character of sin is willfulness is it not? A fly is flying into a fly lamp is ignorant not willful.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/26/2010 11:08:55 PM
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walterquez
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I don't deny there is a juridical expression, but, the therapeutic model gives a much better understanding. Please, also understand that the Holy Scripture was not written in English, so we must understand it from its cultural background and language, which I believe is more therapeutic than juridical.
Please forgive me if I am wrong, but, what I have learned from the Jews, is that they too see it from a therapeutic model. The concept of Hell and the Lake of Fire as understood by Protestants is foreign to them; and it is foreign to Orthodoxy as well.
_____________________________
St. Athanasios the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 12:21:28 AM
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philadelphian
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I'm not really interested in who believes the therapeutic model but if it is supported by scripture. Please provide scripture references to support your statements.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 2:42:46 AM
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kelman
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quote:
Protestants have a way to full communion right now in either of the Orthodox faiths - RCIA...and a profession of faith in the authority and instruction of either of these Churches. The only full communion Protestants want is with God and believe this is best done outside the two denominations mentioned.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 2:43:49 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: philadelphian
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
No doubt about God's judgment and condemnation. This is seen not only in Rev but throughout the entire Bible. If man remains unsaved, he will be judged for his sins. No amount of philosophy can change God's judgment.
2Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Everytime man sins, it is the Word of God which judges him.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Does God judge and condemn man?....the height of folly to think not!
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 8:13:06 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
To understand, it helps to stop seeing it from only one point of view, especially when it is the wrong one. I know this is hard, if this is all we have known all of our life. But, look at it from a proper angle, where it looks much clearer, and you will see every person is experiencing the consequences (judged) of what they did (works). And they were burned (judged) according to them walking into the fire (works).
I think a study of the etymology of the English "Judged" is helpful, as well.
"Doomed" has the same etymology, and has come to mean in English something like the realization of results stemming from an action. If you want to travel faster than the speed of light, you are doomed to failure. But "doomed" is basically "judged". I would agree with that.
I say leave the discernment to the Church. It has better resources than you do...or should...
quote:
I'm not really interested in who believes the therapeutic model but if it is supported by scripture.
Scripture was supplied. What is really required in this case is something more akin to an English thesaurus or dictionary.
quote:
The only full communion Protestants want is with God and believe this is best done outside the two denominations mentioned.
Thank you for so eloquently making my points about "schism"...
That's the problem...many Protestants see no call to a faith community larger than their own particular local congregation...and as they don't unite under a larger catholic (small "c") faith community, with uniform practice and instruction, authorized under a single "catholic" (small "c") Church, they don't leverage the resources of the best and the brightest, the most gifted and prepared, from whom to take their instruction and assist with their faith development and practice.
That discussion lies more appropriately in the "Why do we need a Pope" thread...where it has been raging on for a long time, rather than hijacking this thread with that debate.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 8/27/2010 8:22:01 AM >
_____________________________
Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 10:24:36 AM
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patricius79
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Walterquez
quote:
I don't deny there is a juridical expression, but, the therapeutic model gives a much better understanding. Please, also understand that the Holy Scripture was not written in English, so we must understand it from its cultural background and language, which I believe is more therapeutic than juridical.
In other words, there is a loving, non-legalistic way to understand all of the passages in Scripture and in Western Tradition--as likewise in Eastern Tradition--about Judgment, the need of fulfilling the O.T. Law, "scourging every son He recieves", being "children of wrath by nature" (Eph 2:3), warnings,, remedial punishment (e.g. 1 Cor 5:3-5), etc. To do this, one needs only to study the emphases on mercy in these sources.
E.g. in Western Tradition, one can look at all of the canonized saints that emphasized the infinite tenderness of Jesus Christ, including St. Gertrude the Great and St. Faustina. Likewise, in the N.T. one need simply look at the "hard sayings" in the context of the very tender and comforting sayings.
I don't think the Western and Eastern Traditions are substantially different on these things. i think it is accidentally legalistic to argue for such. IN both cases, you have the fact that all must be careful to recieve Christ's mercy and to avoid the horror of sin which comes too easily for mortals. this horror of sin is very strong in Eastern Christians like Sophrony, e.g, as in the West. And in both Traditions you have far more fundamental disposition of boundless confidence in God's Mercy expressed, e.g. in St. John of the Cross who said: "in the spiritual life, one recieves whatever one hopes for", and in Juliana of Norwich.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 8/27/2010 2:40:32 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 1:39:57 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 430
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: philadelphian
I'm not really interested in who believes the therapeutic model but if it is supported by scripture. Please provide scripture references to support your statements.
Philadelphian,
You are certainly welcome to discuss these matters with us Orthodox Christians, but I would ask that we keep our dialogue civil and respectful.
Walter has already admitted that he is having difficulty explaining the Orthdox model of salvation as therapeutic. I will do my best to look up some sound Orthodox teaching on this matter. One other reliable source that you may want to make use of is a website/forum called monachos.net. There are Orthodox priests and deacons there who can be of substantial help to you and answer your questions with more depth.
The problem that we have in this particular thread here on Crosswalk, is that we don't have any Orthodox priests, deacons, or teachers participating. Thus, many of us (such as myself) are fairly new to the Orthodox faith, having come from Protestantism or some other Christian tradition.
Please be patient with us. May we each make it our goal to communicate with love and clarity, with kindness and forbearance.
In Christ's Immeasurable Love,
Heavendweller/Darlene Nonna
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 1:42:59 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Protestants have a way to full communion right now in either of the Orthodox faiths - RCIA...and a profession of faith in the authority and instruction of either of these Churches. The only full communion Protestants want is with God and believe this is best done outside the two denominations mentioned.
Kelman,
Are you speaking for all Protestants, really? My husband has been a Protestant Evangelical for over 30 years and is now seriously considering being received into the Orthodox Church. I know of many other such cases.
In Christ,
Darlene Nonna
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 1:54:16 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Everytime man sins, it is the Word of God which judges him.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Does God judge and condemn man?....the height of folly to think not!
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Kelman,
We Orthodox do not deny that there will be a great Judgment. In fact, at every Divine Liturgy we pray that we will have an acceptable defense at the dread judgment seat of Christ. We continually cast ourselves upon the love and mercy of Christ. And we profess before partaking of the Eucharist, "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first." and "Have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance."
We are very aware that it is a sobering matter to stand before the holy God of the Universe, Creator of all flesh.
Glory to God for all things!
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 6:19:58 PM
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philadelphian
Posts: 81
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: philadelphian
I'm not really interested in who believes the therapeutic model but if it is supported by scripture. Please provide scripture references to support your statements.
Philadelphian,
You are certainly welcome to discuss these matters with us Orthodox Christians, but I would ask that we keep our dialogue civil and respectful.
Walter has already admitted that he is having difficulty explaining the Orthdox model of salvation as therapeutic. I will do my best to look up some sound Orthodox teaching on this matter. One other reliable source that you may want to make use of is a website/forum called monachos.net. There are Orthodox priests and deacons there who can be of substantial help to you and answer your questions with more depth.
The problem that we have in this particular thread here on Crosswalk, is that we don't have any Orthodox priests, deacons, or teachers participating. Thus, many of us (such as myself) are fairly new to the Orthodox faith, having come from Protestantism or some other Christian tradition.
Please be patient with us. May we each make it our goal to communicate with love and clarity, with kindness and forbearance.
In Christ's Immeasurable Love,
Heavendweller/Darlene Nonna
I just wanted to make it clear that I don't rely on tradition. I realize that you do but if you want to convince me that your tradition is correct I need to see scripture. I didn't mean to offend anyone. Just asking honest questions.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 6:29:44 PM
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patricius79
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heavendweller wrote:
quote:
We Orthodox do not deny that there will be a great Judgment. In fact, at every Divine Liturgy we pray .... "Have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance."
this mystery and seeming self-contradiction seems truly similar to the mystery and seeming self-contradiction of the Catholic understanding of Original Sin, does it not?
also, I was thinking of the Scripture
"upon Him was the chastisement that made us whole. And by His stripes we were healed. For God laid upon Him the guilt of us all."
That seems to me to summarize the unity of the therapeutic and judicial teachings of the Scriptures, although our redemption is a mystery of compassion that goes beyond either of these words.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 8/27/2010 6:39:59 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 7:10:05 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I just wanted to make it clear that I don't rely on tradition.
If your New Testament has 27 Books in it, then you rely on tradition. That is what is clear.
The tradition that dictated that is the same one you are challenging with your need to "see it in Scriptures".
Show me where the Books of the NT are spelled out in the NT - Chapter and verse please...
I am tending to discussions of authority in the Pope thread, but its not terribly out of place here, either. Jesus authorized Apostles and Church. Church, as an institution, authorized the content of Scriptures - to aid the faithful in the definition, development, instruction and spread of Christian faith.
The first group to buck the authority of the ancient communions in regard to Scripture was the Latter Day Saints. Not even the Reformers would go against the 27 Book NT (although a few toyed with the idea).
_____________________________
Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/27/2010 7:20:36 PM
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philadelphian
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We don't believe the bible because it was compiled by your tradition. We believe it because we hear the master's voice and we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. The scriptures were recognized in the NT. Peter refers to this regarding Paul's epistles in His second epistle. This was long before it was officially canonized by Catholic tradition. I do believe that God used the Catholic church to preserve His word though but I don't rely on that tradition to tell me what God's word is.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 1:34:21 AM
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Heavendweller
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Dear Patricius and Dog,
First, I want to thank you for taking an interest in participating on this Orthodox thread. I would encourage the both of you, as I have others who comment here, to make an effort to be kind and charitable in your remarks to others who oppose the Orthodox Church's teachings (as well as your own for that matter). Often, I recognize a defensive posture that I can take when someone challenges my faith. Yet, there is a way in which we can dialogue with others that works toward mutual respect, even if we may disagree. I pray that we can all succeed at this endeavor.
Next, I would like to address the matter that you two have alluded to with regard to the similarities (and minimal differences) between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. Having become Orthodox by first taking the route through the RCC, I can say without reservation that there are quite a few differences between our two churches. Time does not permit me now to expound upon such differences. However, I would like to give more thought and consideration as to what those differences are, and to begin addressing some of the most obvious ones. There are some topics where my knowledge is limited, and therefore, do not feel competent in discussing such matters. The Filioque would fit into this category.
However, I am willing to tackle some of the differences in specific areas in which I have a better grasp of the Orthodox mindset and teaching. I will inquire of and seek the help of Orthodox priests with whom I am in contact, such as my parish priest. Also, if the both of you are interested, I encourage you to listen to a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio titled, "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" by Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick from St. Paul's Antiochian Orthodox Church in Emmaus, PA. He addresses many of the differences between the Orthodox Church and the RCC. I attended many of his presentations and found them to be quite informative.
Even though I acknowledge that our churches are not in communion with one another, I still trust that the both of you have a desire to follow our Lord Jesus. Surely it is a tragedy that a schism ever occurred between East and West. The task before all who bear the name of Christian is to seek reconciliation and healing. But this cannot be done at the expense of first seeking the truth, which is the Truth Himself.
In Christ's Immeasurable Love,
Darlene
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 9:50:59 AM
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patricius79
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Hi Heavendweller,
There is no queston that there are "differences" betwen the East and West, but as I pointed out in my recent posts on this page, these are not rightly divisions in our Church which has Apostolic Succession. Our doctrine relative to the effects of Original Sin is a good example.
Both sides see that the result of Original Sin is death and the inevitability of sin in Adam's descendants. Both sides agree that this is a mystery not capable of being captured in words. But sides agree that we are all entirely dependent on the grace of Jesus Christ, the God-man.
The devil has a great interest in pretending that the East and the West are in a superiority context, with the East being much wiser, or the West being much wiser; or one or the other being more "mystical" or holy than the other. But in truth this is just rationalism adopted to make us feel better about division.
E.g, I have the impression that sometimes Orthodox feel that they understand our existential need for the Incarnation better than the West. But of course the same claim is made in the West relative to the East. (The Catholic Church is profoundly Incarnational, as expressed in both art and writing).
Related to this, I might observe also that in the West, the understanding of "satisfaction" for sin is not understood as the Orthodox think. We do believe that the least act of the Incarnation was sufficient to save us; and we do not believe, e.g., that God could not have forgiven us without "satisfaction" or "full satisfaction" for sin; nor that God's mercy comes after the satisfaction, as opposed to before; nor that the death of Christ was the only way that God could have chosen redeemed us; nor that the divine justice is having to do with anything other than Love.
These are things I feel that the Lord has put on my heart to say.
Peace in Christ,
pat
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 8/28/2010 9:58:48 AM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 10:46:02 AM
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walterquez
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Dear patricius79, my understanding of Original Sin (committed by Adam) is that the West believes the "guilt" is passed on to the children. In other words, we are guilty of the sin committed by Adam. For argument sake, let's say a human, from the day he is born until the day he dies, has not once committed a sin; in fact, he has lived a holy life. Despite this, because of Original Sin, he is still guilty. And to be set free from it is by Juridical means. If I am wrong, please let me know. If this is true or even partially true, then there is a huge difference between us, the Orthodox and the West.
When I mean West, I am referring mostly to Protestants. Does the RCC hold to this teaching as well?
_____________________________
St. Athanasios the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 11:00:55 AM
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patricius79
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quote:
Dear patricius79, my understanding of Original Sin (committed by Adam) is that the West believes the "guilt" is passed on to the children. In other words, we are guilty of the sin committed by Adam. For argument sake, let's say a human, from the day he is born until the day he dies, has not once committed a sin; in fact, he has lived a holy life. Despite this, because of Original Sin, he is still guilty. And to be set free from it is by Juridical means. If I am wrong, please let me know. If this is true or even partially true, then there is a huge difference between us, the Orthodox and the West.
When I mean West, I am referring mostly to Protestants. Does the RCC hold to this teaching as well?
First, the only way that one could think of the Western view as legalistic is to be unacquainted with the writings of the orthodox Catholic mystics and doctors like Aquinas and Therese of Lisieux (both doctors of the Church)
Well the Protestant view of course is different from the Cahtolic view, which is not legalistic because God wouldn't allow the Church's Magisterium to fall into legalism.
The Catholic does not believe that the Original Sin is passed on as an act of sin, but as an existential state. I believe that is stated in the CCC 404. It is a sin contracted, not committed.
As to the abstract idea of someone leading a sinless life, the Orthodox and Catholics both believe that we are "inevitably" sinful lthrough the death passed on through Adam. This is stated by Meyendorf ,e.g., just as Paul says that "through one man's sin condemnation came upon all men"
However, there is one example of someone leading such as as sinless life, as both Catholics and Orthodox believe.. And she needed salvation also, as both Catholics and Orthodox believe, thus showing out unity on Original Sin.
As to the "juridical" issue, please read my recent posts and explain if anything is missing from them on this point. e.g. I wrote that we do not believe that Jesus had of legal necessity to die for us in order to save us, and:
and we do not believe, e.g., that God could not have forgiven us without "satisfaction" or "full satisfaction" for sin"
Again I say: we believe that Love's Highest Attribute, Divine Mercy, which is Compassion, is the cause of our salvation, and not any form of legalism
Peace and Blessings and Thanks for your questions,
Pat
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 8/28/2010 11:27:05 AM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 11:32:35 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
The Catholic does not believe that the Original Sin is passed on as an act of sin, but as an existential state. I believe that is stated in the CCC 404. It is a sin contracted, not committed. This sounds the same as ours. To put it plainly, it is a disease that is passed on to the children. We are not guilty for contracting the original disease, but, we do suffer the consequences of it, because we inherited the disease from our fathers.
quote:
As to the abstract idea of someone leading a sinless life, the Orthodox and Catholics both believe that we are "inevitably" sinful lthrough the death passed on through Adam. This is stated by Meyendorf ,e.g., just as Paul says that "through one man's sin condemnation came upon all men" What is your understanding of condemnation? Is it juridical?
quote:
and we do not believe, e.g., that God could not have forgiven us without "satisfaction" or "full satisfaction" for sin" Sorry, this threw me off, because of the double negatives. I am guessing you mean, God does not need "satisfaction" or "full satisfaction" to forgive us; basically, He can forgive us without any requirements.
_____________________________
St. Athanasios the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 11:43:04 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: philadelphian
To me "judged" implies juridical or judgmental one not therapeutic. It looks like you are trying to make it say something it doesn't say to make it conform to the therapeutic model. What scripture gives you the authority to make such a presupposition? Also, don't people sin deliberately? The very character of sin is willfulness is it not? A fly is flying into a fly lamp is ignorant not willful. What it implies in the English language is irrelevant. You must understand the culture and the language in the time it was written. Judgment is a consequence of an action. Christ did not come to condemn the world but to save it. For example, Jesus told the woman, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
quote:
I'm not really interested in who believes the therapeutic model but if it is supported by scripture. Please provide scripture references to support your statements. Christ is the Great Physician. It also says, by His stripes we are healed. And now that I am thinking about it, in the New Testament, Jesus went out healing people. That was His ministry, to heal us. His ministry was therapeutic, not juridical.
_____________________________
St. Athanasios the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 1:07:30 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
This sounds the same as ours. To put it plainly, it is a disease that is passed on to the children. We are not guilty for contracting the original disease, but, we do suffer the consequences of it, because we inherited the disease from our fathers
right. And we are guilty of the sins into which we inevitably fall--both volunarily and unvoluntarily, as Heavendweller said-- through our mortality which comes from the original sin.
quote:
What is your understanding of condemnation? Is it juridical?
It seems that your question is somewhat legalistic, given what I've already said in my recent posts. For example:
"upon Him was the chastisement that made us whole. And by His stripes we were healed.... God laid upon Him the guilt of us all."
That seems to me to summarize the unity of the therapeutic and judicial teachings of the Scriptures, although our redemption is a mystery of compassion that goes beyond either of these words
well, the metaphor Paul uses in Romans 5:18 is juridical, yes--hence "acquitted"-- but it is not legalistic.
"I came into this world for judgment: so that the blind might see"
"The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has saved us" (Rom 8:2).
"thy laws have become my song"
The Biblical understanding of "law"--as in Rom 8:4--is that God is Love and especially Compassion. That is the Catholic understanding. And I'm confident it is the Orthodox understadning.
Jesus came to fulfill the law and destroy legalism--"obliterating the bond against us with its legal claims"--and in this way to heal us. That is a very Catholic understanding.
quote:
Sorry, this threw me off, because of the double negatives. I am guessing you mean, God does not need "satisfaction" or "full satisfaction" to forgive us; basically, He can forgive us without any requirements.
Correct. And he could have chosen to atone for our sins, which is our healing, without the Passion, merely in virtue of the least act of the Incarnation, as I've been taught.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 8/28/2010 1:47:48 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 6:32:36 PM
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philadelphian
Posts: 81
Joined: 8/26/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: philadelphian
To me "judged" implies juridical or judgmental one not therapeutic. It looks like you are trying to make it say something it doesn't say to make it conform to the therapeutic model. What scripture gives you the authority to make such a presupposition? Also, don't people sin deliberately? The very character of sin is willfulness is it not? A fly is flying into a fly lamp is ignorant not willful. What it implies in the English language is irrelevant. You must understand the culture and the language in the time it was written. Judgment is a consequence of an action. Christ did not come to condemn the world but to save it. For example, Jesus told the woman, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Yes, during the present time Jesus is not judging the world but He will in the passage quoted He is the Lamb of God and we are called to act in that character today. He is also going to return as the Lion of the tribe of Judah of which David was a type to act in judgment in the world. He saved us by taking the judgment that was due us so the juridical model is maintained even in this day of grace.
quote:
I'm not really interested in who believes the therapeutic model but if it is supported by scripture. Please provide scripture references to support your statements. quote:
Christ is the Great Physician. It also says, by His stripes we are healed. And now that I am thinking about it, in the New Testament, Jesus went out healing people. That was His ministry, to heal us. His ministry was therapeutic, not juridical.
Yes, He is but He also is going to judge the world. In His work on the cross sin was judged on our behalf. The judgment of sins is the beginning of the healing process. "Cease to do evil, learn to do well." We must first judge ourselves in light of God and then we are ready to learn of Him in a therapeutic way so really both models are presented in connection with Christ's sacrificial death.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/28/2010 10:23:09 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 2195
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
This was long before it was officially canonized by Catholic tradition. I do believe that God used the Catholic church to preserve His word though but I don't rely on that tradition to tell me what God's word is.
I'm not sure which thread this discussion needs to continue in, but its not this one...
I would question then how you know that the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Peter or 3 Corinthians are not the Word of God...just by reading them (have you read them?)...
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Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 8/29/2010 3:20:12 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
Status: offline
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quote:
they don't leverage the resources of the best and the brightest, the most gifted and prepared, from whom to take their instruction and assist with their faith development and practice. The "best and the brightest" are often the most unrighteous especially when their purpose is to defend their doctrines...at all costs.
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I say leave the discernment to the Church. It has better resources than you do...or should...
Does God lie then? Over and over He tells us to study, to meditate upon His Word..as if we could understand it....imagine that?...God tells us to study His Word. You, however, tell us we need to look instead to those with better "resources".
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I think a study of the etymology of the English "Judged" is helpful, as well. LOL...not sure we can find a more ironic sentence....considering...
Have you found the post where I called another poster a heretic?....surely it must exist since you wouldn't lie now would you?
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I would question then how you know that the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Peter or 3 Corinthians are not the Word of God...just by reading them (have you read them?)... Actually, you wouldn't be asking that question IF you had read them...and yes I've read two out of three.
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.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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