Was Judas saved? (Full Version)

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AboundinginHisGrace -> Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 10:49:56 AM)

I am going through the Gospel of Matthew and just read this.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27 Then Peter said in reply, "See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?" 28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Here Jesus is talking about 12 sitting on the throne. Wouldn't that mean Judas is sitting on one the thrones judging? I might be wrong. I have read Matthew many times but this poped out to me. I was wondering if any of you had any insight on this passage.



RoderickSpode -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 11:21:20 AM)

Well Judas Iscariot was replaced. And certainly leaving family in itself does not bring salvation. I would say the scriptures indicate that he wasn't.



doinkdom -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 11:26:58 AM)

Judas was not saved. And, he was indeed replaced.



Eutychus -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 11:29:23 AM)

Jesus called Judas the son of perdition.

Perdition means "eternal damnation," "hell," or "absolute ruin."

Judas was not saved.



Saved34 -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 11:30:12 AM)

Most definitely not. Our Lord refered to him as "the son of perdition". The same name or title the Holy Spirit gives the anti Christ.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


When speaking of the twelve he looked beyond Judas and to Mathias. We know this because he said they were all clean, save one.

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

No doubt Mathias was in company with them from the very beginning. Peter said:

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Our Lord told them whatsoever they ask in his name he would hear and answer.

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

They asked for guidance in finding a replacement for Judas and God answered.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Mathias took the place as one of the twelve. We know that the great Apostle Paul is distinctly the "Apostle to the gentiles or uncircumcision". Paul was a special Apostle, that our Glorified Lord gave a special mission.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:


Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)


Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


Judas went to his own place. Our Lord said it would be better if he had never been born.

Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.



sue244 -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 11:30:46 AM)

I agree with Roderick Scripture seems to imply that he was not saved. We have one point where Jesus mentions that He has chosen the 12 of them yet one of them is a devil John 6:70. And then in Acts 1:25 it mentions Judas death and going to his own place, so no I do not think that he was saved. As for the 12 seat the 12th one could either be Matthias Acts 1:26 or Paul. I lean toward Paul but I could see an argument for either one of those 2 men.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 11:33:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sue244

I agree with Roderick Scripture seems to imply that he was not saved. We have one point where Jesus mentions that He has chosen the 12 of them yet one of them is a devil John 6:70. And then in Acts 1:25 it mentions Judas death and going to his own place, so no I do not think that he was saved. As for the 12 seat the 12th one could either be Matthias Acts 1:26 or Paul. I lean toward Paul but I could see an argument for either one of those 2 men.

Amen, Sue. My thoughts exactly!



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 11:54:29 AM)

That is what I thought I just wasn't sure about this passage. Because, He is talking to the disciples and He says you who have followed me. That is what threw me off. As far as Jesus referring to Judas a devil He also said to Peter get behind me Satan. But I would have to agree that most of the things written about Judas we would assume he was lost. I just didn't understand this passage. Thanks for your inuput.



DaveW -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 2:24:00 PM)

Whether he was saved or not depends on your definition of salvation.

I would submit that he was "saved" for the first 3 years of Jesus' ministry and lost it when betrayal entered his heart. There is no indication that he was not able to minister the miracles of Jesus along with the other disciples.

Mat 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Mat 10:8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

Luk 10:1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
....
Luk 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."



rcjames -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 4:08:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Whether he was saved or not depends on your definition of salvation.

I would submit that he was "saved" for the first 3 years of Jesus' ministry and lost it when betrayal entered his heart. There is no indication that he was not able to minister the miracles of Jesus along with the other disciples.


I am with you on this one DaveW (though it will probably give the OSAS crowd a diaper rash). The following verse is most plain;

(Joh 17:12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

God gave Judas to Christ just as He did the others, and Christ says that He lost one. Had him, but lost Him.

Thanks
RC



Eutychus -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 4:19:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Whether he was saved or not depends on your definition of salvation.

I would submit that he was "saved" for the first 3 years of Jesus' ministry and lost it when betrayal entered his heart. There is no indication that he was not able to minister the miracles of Jesus along with the other disciples.


I am with you on this one DaveW (though it will probably give the OSAS crowd a diaper rash). ...

No diaper rash here, sir.

The scripture identifies Judas as a thief as keeper of the purse. That was long BEFORE the final hours.

That must give the temporal-salvationers who'd like to call Judas a former brother in Christ a diaper rash.



Warbird777 -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 5:18:34 PM)

Judas was never saved, he was replaced in the 12........and Satan himself entered into Judas .......which pretty much says it all

(Luk 22:3) Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.

(Joh 13:27) Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do quickly."



RoderickSpode -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/10/2010 9:05:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Whether he was saved or not depends on your definition of salvation.

I would submit that he was "saved" for the first 3 years of Jesus' ministry and lost it when betrayal entered his heart. There is no indication that he was not able to minister the miracles of Jesus along with the other disciples.

Mat 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Mat 10:8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

Luk 10:1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
....
Luk 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."

Matthew 7:21-23 makes it clear that many will perform these works and not enter Heaven. And even though Judas obeyed Christ's command to to preach (demons do His command as well), doesn't mean he did His will. It's apparent that he never believed as one must do as stated in John 6:29.



cog41 -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/11/2010 5:19:15 AM)

quote:

Matthew 7:21-23 makes it clear that many will perform these works and not enter Heaven. And even though Judas obeyed Christ's command to to preach (demons do His command as well), doesn't mean he did His will. It's apparent that he never believed as one must do as stated in John 6:29.



Not saved. Simply part of of the Divine plan.



19ramman85 -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/11/2010 7:39:22 AM)

A simple answer to a simple question; "NO"

-charles



Walker311 -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/11/2010 11:00:08 PM)

Judas was chosen to betray Jesus and not for his integrity, character, or ability to be a witness for Jesus. Someone had to do it!



DaveW -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 7:00:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode

Matthew 7:21-23 makes it clear that many will perform these works and not enter Heaven. And even though Judas obeyed Christ's command to to preach (demons do His command as well), doesn't mean he did His will. It's apparent that he never believed as one must do as stated in John 6:29.
That is an assumption we should not, indeed CANNOT, make.

There is nothing to indicate that early in Jesus' ministry that Judas did not believe with the same ferver that any of the rest of the 12 did. Apparently at some point he started stealing from the fund, and ended up losing it all. That does not mean that he was not saved at the beginning. But he certainly did not finish that way.



keithyhuntington -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 7:29:03 AM)

i thought the concept "being saved" didnt happen until jesus rose from the dead. didnt judas kill hiself before that? :D

edit: i'm justs aying that because i never considered anyone in the old testament "saved." it was more or less are you following god's law. i've always attributed being saved as admiting that jesus defeated hell, rose from the dead, and is now your saviour.



DaveW -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 7:45:13 AM)

As I said in an earlier post; it depends on how you define "saved."

I define it as "if you were to die at this moment, would you end up in heaven (saved) or hell (not saved)." That may change tomorrow.

If you define the saints of the Tenach (Hebrew scriptures) as not saved, you would be saying that they all are in hell now. I do not think scripture supports that idea.



Saved34 -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 8:54:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

As I said in an earlier post; it depends on how you define "saved."

I define it as "if you were to die at this moment, would you end up in heaven (saved) or hell (not saved)." That may change tomorrow.

If you define the saints of the Tenach (Hebrew scriptures) as not saved, you would be saying that they all are in hell now. I do not think scripture supports that idea.
You may define saved that way, but the Bible defines it as a present position.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Heaven is not the believers Hope, we are already citizens there. We are right now spiritually seated there in Christ. It is not something to guess about or worry about.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:



RoderickSpode -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 10:49:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode

Matthew 7:21-23 makes it clear that many will perform these works and not enter Heaven. And even though Judas obeyed Christ's command to to preach (demons do His command as well), doesn't mean he did His will. It's apparent that he never believed as one must do as stated in John 6:29.
That is an assumption we should not, indeed CANNOT, make.

There is nothing to indicate that early in Jesus' ministry that Judas did not believe with the same ferver that any of the rest of the 12 did. Apparently at some point he started stealing from the fund, and ended up losing it all. That does not mean that he was not saved at the beginning. But he certainly did not finish that way.

Why would my submission be any worse than your submitting that because Judas apparently performed Christ's charge given to the 70, this suggests that he was a genuine believer?

The verses I pointed out suggest that there have been/will be those who perform the same acts, who Jesus will state that He never knew. That unsaved individuals perform these very acts that probably lead others to believe they are genuine saved believers.

What we know is that Jesus told these people to follow, and they did. I would submit that there's a possibility that Thomas was not a believer until after the resurrection when Jesus showed him His scars. I would submit that for whatever reason, some non-believers follow the Christian movement. Some are not saved, but will be saved. Some will never be.



rcjames -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 10:58:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved34
You may define saved that way, but the Bible defines it as a present position.

As a present position, but not a permanant position, God will keep his part of the Covenant, but man just might not.

I say that Judas was a follower of Christ (Saved as anyone could be at that time in history), and then Judas tured back to his Evil ways.

Jesus states that God gave Him the twelve, and that only one was later lost.

Thanks
RC



Coffee_Drinker -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 12:00:58 PM)

quote:

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


Judas didn't quite make it - unfortunately.

Not to change the topic or anything, but I hear so many people say that once saved, always saved - so they (some) feel like they are invulnerable and can do as they wish without repercussions. Sure, we're not perfect by any means, but we still must "tow the mark."

In the end, even when we finally make it and we are in the presence of our Lord, we are still held accountable (judgement seat of Christ) for what we have done while being saved. Well, I'm getting off topic here so I'll end it.



Eutychus -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 12:10:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker
Not to change the topic or anything, but I hear so many people say that once saved, always saved - so they (some) feel like they are invulnerable and can do as they wish without repercussions. Sure, we're not perfect by any means, but we still must "tow the mark."

While I've been told such people exist, I've never met anyone who believes in Perseverance of the Saints that also believes they have a license to sin.

OTOH, I have met plenty of folks who place their hope in heaven on their ability to live according to some list of ever changing, man-made standards and living long enough to pray for forgiveness before they die, while pointing out the shortcomings of everyone they know because they think that makes them look better in comparison.

So I guess there are extremeists on both sides of that thorny issue who are confused about the Christian's relationship with our Kinsman Redeemer.



DaveW -> RE: Was Judas saved? (3/12/2010 12:12:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

As I said in an earlier post; it depends on how you define "saved."

I define it as "if you were to die at this moment, would you end up in heaven (saved) or hell (not saved)." That may change tomorrow.

If you define the saints of the Tenach (Hebrew scriptures) as not saved, you would be saying that they all are in hell now. I do not think scripture supports that idea.
You may define saved that way, but the Bible defines it as a present position.

......

Heaven is not the believers Hope, we are already citizens there. We are right now spiritually seated there in Christ. It is not something to guess about or worry about.

But that is not the ONLY way scripture defines salvation. There are texts that support past, present and future. I have come across OSAS people who define it strictly in the future:

Mat 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

There are also those who look to the past:

Rom 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Because all these different ways are legitimate, I would say that you could say Judas was or was not saved, depending on which definition you used. Certainly if you use the future one, then he was not. If you use the past one, the possibility exists that he probably was and then lost it.



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