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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/12/2010 12:21:26 PM
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Coffee_Drinker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker
Not to change the topic or anything, but I hear so many people say that once saved, always saved - so they (some) feel like they are invulnerable and can do as they wish without repercussions. Sure, we're not perfect by any means, but we still must "tow the mark."
While I've been told such people exist, I've never met anyone who believes in Perseverance of the Saints that also believes they have a license to sin.
OTOH, I have met plenty of folks who place their hope in heaven on their ability to live according to some list of ever changing, man-made standards and living long enough to pray for forgiveness before they die, while pointing out the shortcomings of everyone they know because they think that makes them look better in comparison.
So I guess there are extremeists on both sides of that thorny issue who are confused about the Christian's relationship with our Kinsman Redeemer.
I really don't see a huge difference between the two. Within that category there seems to be the "party like an animal on Friday" or the "Oprah - 100 paths to heaven" crowd. One doesn't tow the mark and the other is clueless.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/12/2010 12:30:19 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker
Not to change the topic or anything, but I hear so many people say that once saved, always saved - so they (some) feel like they are invulnerable and can do as they wish without repercussions. Sure, we're not perfect by any means, but we still must "tow the mark."
While I've been told such people exist, I've never met anyone who believes in Perseverance of the Saints that also believes they have a license to sin.
OTOH, I have met plenty of folks who place their hope in heaven on their ability to live according to some list of ever changing, man-made standards and living long enough to pray for forgiveness before they die, while pointing out the shortcomings of everyone they know because they think that makes them look better in comparison.
So I guess there are extremeists on both sides of that thorny issue who are confused about the Christian's relationship with our Kinsman Redeemer.
I really don't see a huge difference between the two. Within that category there seems to be the "party like an animal on Friday" or the "Oprah - 100 paths to heaven" crowd. One doesn't tow the mark and the other is clueless.
The second group that I was referring to would never have anything to do with Oprah. They are in church every time the door opens, many tithe, they don't smoke, drink, chew, or cuss. Many attend every revival and evangelistic crusade around them. They think their external activities will get them to heaven but their personal (and what they sometimes think are secretive) lives reveal they have never been saved. They are the people Jesus called tares among the wheat and whom He'll one day tell, "Depart from me. I never knew you." They are legalists without a relationship.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/12/2010 12:50:16 PM
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Coffee_Drinker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
The second group that I was referring to would never have anything to do with Oprah. They are in church every time the door opens, many tithe, they don't smoke, drink, chew, or cuss. Many attend every revival and evangelistic crusade around them. They think their external activities will get them to heaven but their personal (and what they sometimes think are secretive) lives reveal they have never been saved. They are the people Jesus called tares among the wheat and whom He'll one day tell, "Depart from me. I never knew you." They are legalists without a relationship.
Non-Oprah group. They sound pretty clueless too. Maybe in denial? Some serious denial?
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/13/2010 7:53:07 PM
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lightbeamrider
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The fate of Judas was determined long before he ever came into existence in Psalm 41:9 and quoted by Jesus in John 13:18 in reference to Judas. The fate of Judas was determined by 1) Predetermined plan and 2) Foreknowledge of God. Acts 2:23. Without Judas there would have been no cruxification. Judas fullfills his role in God's plan. No diaper rash here either.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/14/2010 10:30:08 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
The fate of Judas was determined long before he ever came into existence in Psalm 41:9 and quoted by Jesus in John 13:18 in reference to Judas. The fate of Judas was determined by 1) Predetermined plan and 2) Foreknowledge of God. Acts 2:23. Without Judas there would have been no cruxification. Judas fullfills his role in God's plan. No diaper rash here either.
Me thinks you give Judas too much credit. All the Priest had to do was find Jesus and have the Roman Soldiers arrest Him. This could have easily been done if Judas had not showed them where he was. For Christ was not hiding.
Thanks
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/14/2010 12:07:44 PM
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lightbeamrider
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That is true RC but under your scenario John 13:18 would not have been fulfilled in accordance with the predetermined plan of God.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/14/2010 5:07:02 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
That is true RC but under your scenario John 13:18 would not have been fulfilled in accordance with the predetermined plan of God.
If Judas had no choice but to do what God wanted him to do, then how could Judas be guilty of anything? That would be like saying a bullet is morally culpable for murder, not the person who fired the bullet.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/14/2010 8:55:48 PM
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Johnny_
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I think there is good argument on both sides. The scripture says every event that takes place (past, present, future) is in accordance with God's predetermined plan. However, the scripture makes it very clear that we each have a *choice* just like Judas Iscariot had a *choice*. I also agree with Coffee_Drinker in that there are definitely extremists on both sides of the aisle.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/14/2010 11:40:08 PM
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lightbeamrider
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
That is true RC but under your scenario John 13:18 would not have been fulfilled in accordance with the predetermined plan of God.
If Judas had no choice but to do what God wanted him to do, then how could Judas be guilty of anything? That would be like saying a bullet is morally culpable for murder, not the person who fired the bullet.
There are some major differences between a Human Being and a bullet. The facts speak for themselves. In John 13:18 Jesus quotes Psalm 41:9...''that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.'
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/15/2010 12:09:44 AM
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Johnny_
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Beamrider, I think you are missing the point. The verse you quoted is not saying that Judas was forced to do anything against his will. No one in these forums is denying the fact Judas betrayed Jesus. Mr Fribbles and I are pointing out the fact that Judas willingly turned away from Jesus at some point. Yes Judas was indeed chosen to be one of the twelve disciples. Yes Judas accepted the invitation. But Judas did not follow Jesus to the end. In other words, Judas willingly went off course and stayed off course.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/15/2010 7:15:37 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
..... Judas willingly turned away from Jesus at some point. Yes Judas was indeed chosen to be one of the twelve disciples. Yes Judas accepted the invitation. But Judas did not follow Jesus to the end. In other words, Judas willingly went off course and stayed off course. We can all agree to that. The question is BEFORE he took off on the path of betrayal, was he saved or not?
I say he was but then lost it. Judas seems to me to be the poster child for this passage:
Heb 6:4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.
As far as we can tell, Judas was enlightened - taught by Jesus PERSONALLY. He operated in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, healing the sick and casting out the demonic along with the other disciples. He participated in the feeding of the 4000 and 5000. He saw Jesus raise the dead on several occasions. If that is not tasing the Good Word and the Powers of the age to come I do not know what is. And he fell away after all that.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/15/2010 11:13:31 AM
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lightbeamrider
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Am not printing Judas did not have choice or that he was a robot. I would argue Judas did not have ''free'' choice in the same sense pre fall Adam had free choice.
A bullet is to Judas as Judas is to God. Judas had choice. The extreme position would be Judas was a bullet or a robot which is more in line with hyper Calvinism.
Johnny wrote ''The verse you quoted is not saying that Judas was forced to do anything against his will.'' Never wrote Judas was. Never denied Judas had a choice. Enough with the straw man arguments. Yes Judas did turn away from Jesus and it was all predicted hundreds of years before the event happened. Psalm 41:9 was fulfilled in Judas. Would also add it was all determined by predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God as stated in Acts 2:23.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/15/2010 11:26:31 AM
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doinkdom
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Doncha think that part of the role Judas played was the actual "betrayal" so that we know our Savior did indeed, face every situation you and I might face?
Judas was also looking for a warrior to lead an army into war as their savior...not a spiritual war that had to won within our hearts.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/15/2010 11:28:47 AM
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doinkdom
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Oh...and I think Judas was one of the four soils...where God's word fell, but took no root. I would not say he was saved at all.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/15/2010 12:53:35 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Never wrote Judas was. Never denied Judas had a choice. Enough with the straw man arguments. Yes Judas did turn away from Jesus and it was all predicted hundreds of years before the event happened. Psalm 41:9 was fulfilled in Judas. Would also add it was all determined by predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God as stated in Acts 2:23.
I'm not sure how you can say this without self-contradiction. If Judas had a choice in a genuine sense, how could his choices be pre-determined hundreds of years before his birth?
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/15/2010 1:38:19 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
That is true RC but under your scenario John 13:18 would not have been fulfilled in accordance with the predetermined plan of God.
I do not see where John 13:18 states that Judas would lead the romans to Jesus, only that one who broke bread with Jesus would raise his heel against Christ (leaving someone, walking away from someone).
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/15/2010 7:09:54 PM
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Johnny_
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I don't think Judas was saved. Why not? In order for one to be saved, the person has to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I'm not so sure Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Living God. Judas probably viewed Jesus as a great teacher or a prophet. For example: I have visited many different churches and listened to many different pastors. All the sermons included the core essentials of Christianity but that doesn't neccessarily mean the speakers were saved. I honestly don't know if all those pastors were saved. Another example: I can go on my rooftop and preach the gospel, but that doesn't neccessarily mean I am saved.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/16/2010 12:09:15 AM
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jjbird
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I think Judas was more than likely saved at one time however later fell away from God.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/16/2010 6:47:34 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
I don't think Judas was saved. Why not? In order for one to be saved, the person has to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I'm not so sure Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Living God. Judas probably viewed Jesus as a great teacher or a prophet.
Well, in that definition NONE of the disciples were saved before Matthew 16.16 where Peter makes this statement:
Mat 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
IOW, NO ONE had that idea before this point, and it was the Father who chose to reveal it at that point.
BTW, do we see Judas objecting to this revelation?
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/16/2010 6:55:40 AM
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19ramman85
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
I don't think Judas was saved. Why not? In order for one to be saved, the person has to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I'm not so sure Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Living God. Judas probably viewed Jesus as a great teacher or a prophet. For example: I have visited many different churches and listened to many different pastors. All the sermons included the core essentials of Christianity but that doesn't neccessarily mean the speakers were saved. I honestly don't know if all those pastors were saved. Another example: I can go on my rooftop and preach the gospel, but that doesn't neccessarily mean I am saved.
IMHO .............. Judas "knew" - "Exactly", who Jesus was!!!
he just chose to deny it, becuase he wanted to be on the good side with the Jews, plus he was at least somewhat greedy.
-charles
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/16/2010 12:12:33 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
I don't think Judas was saved. Why not? In order for one to be saved, the person has to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I'm not so sure Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Living God. Judas probably viewed Jesus as a great teacher or a prophet.
Well, in that definition NONE of the disciples were saved before Matthew 16.16 where Peter makes this statement:
Mat 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
IOW, NO ONE had that idea before this point, and it was the Father who chose to reveal it at that point.
BTW, do we see Judas objecting to this revelation?
The text doesn't say that no one had that idea before this point.
If they didn't believe he was the Messiah before then why were they following Him?
Why did in Matthew 10 Jesus give them authority to "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons."
You think Jesus would give that kind of power and authority to unsaved people? People who didn't believe in Him?
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/16/2010 12:45:29 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
The text doesn't say that no one had that idea before this point. It does specifically say that flesh and blood (including the other disciples) did not reveal that. Had any of them had that thought, it would have been shared. (such was their culture)
quote:
You think Jesus would give that kind of power and authority to unsaved people? No I do not. He gave that authority to Judas along with the others. That is why I believe that early on he was saved.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/16/2010 1:03:27 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
That is why I believe that early on he was saved.
Didn't you say just a post earlier that none of them were saved before Ma. 16?
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/16/2010 1:20:29 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbirdquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
That is why I believe that early on he was saved. Didn't you say just a post earlier that none of them were saved before Ma. 16? No - what I said was IF you take the revelation of Jesus as Divine as necessary for salvation (see post 42) then none of them were saved. I was pointing out the implications of what Johnny_ had written.
I personally do not take that as necessary up front. It is something that can be grown into.
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RE: Was Judas saved? - 3/16/2010 1:26:11 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbirdquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
That is why I believe that early on he was saved. Didn't you say just a post earlier that none of them were saved before Ma. 16? No - what I said was IF you take the revelation of Jesus as Divine as necessary for salvation (see post 42) then none of them were saved. I was pointing out the implications of what Johnny_ had written.
I personally do not take that as necessary up front. It is something that can be grown into.
Ah I see it now! My sincerest apologies!
It's amazing how someone can miss something so blatantly obvious when reading too fast! 
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