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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/21/2010 7:08:00 PM
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wing2000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
...so how many Americans have died in Afghanistan due to lack of chambered ammunition?
A chambered round does little good against an enemy that refuses to stand up and fight...and would just as soon blow up your vehicle and run...(though, I'm sure conveys in IRaq/Afghan travel with chambered rounds)
That was the policy in Beirut when the suicide bomber took out the Marine Barracks there. The guards were unable to load and fire in time. Seems like some folks never learn.
Okay, but you have yet to identify a situation in Afghanistan today wherein lack of chambered ammunition let to US soldiers dying.
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/21/2010 8:00:29 PM
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Marcus.
Posts: 2105
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
...so how many Americans have died in Afghanistan due to lack of chambered ammunition?
A chambered round does little good against an enemy that refuses to stand up and fight...and would just as soon blow up your vehicle and run...(though, I'm sure conveys in IRaq/Afghan travel with chambered rounds)
You got me. But carrying completely unloaded weapons while fighting a guerilla war is sheer stupidity. No frontline. No rear areas. You may be attacked anywhere.
_____________________________
Till we meet again friends.
Maybe at the http://forum.bible.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16045
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/21/2010 8:02:11 PM
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Marcus.
Posts: 2105
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
...so how many Americans have died in Afghanistan due to lack of chambered ammunition?
A chambered round does little good against an enemy that refuses to stand up and fight...and would just as soon blow up your vehicle and run...(though, I'm sure conveys in IRaq/Afghan travel with chambered rounds)
That was the policy in Beirut when the suicide bomber took out the Marine Barracks there. The guards were unable to load and fire in time. Seems like some folks never learn.
Okay, but you have yet to identify a situation in Afghanistan today wherein lack of chambered ammunition let to US soldiers dying.
I was sharing a story on the idiocy of officers fighting an unconventional war. I have no idea the number of casualties resulting from the policy mentioned. Hopefully more realistic officers have rectified the situation.
_____________________________
Till we meet again friends.
Maybe at the http://forum.bible.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16045
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/21/2010 8:03:43 PM
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Marcus.
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A similar level of idiocy would be to have police officers keep their weapons unloaded for fear of an accidental discharge until they had to use them.
_____________________________
Till we meet again friends.
Maybe at the http://forum.bible.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16045
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/23/2010 9:37:02 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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The U.S. death toll in Afghanistan reach 1000, although the one thousand number in Iraq was front page news for days, since Afghanistan is Obama's war you probably will not read much about it. see HERE
Please join my Church and I in prayer for the families of all the fallen soldiers.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/24/2010 10:22:56 AM
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Tarox
Posts: 110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
The U.S. death toll in Afghanistan reach 1000, although the one thousand number in Iraq was front page news for days, since Afghanistan is Obama's war you probably will not read much about it. see HERE
Please join my Church and I in prayer for the families of all the fallen soldiers.
Thanks
RC
Why can't it just be "the dealth toll reached 1000, join us in praying for the troops". Just can't leave out the Obama sniping.
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/24/2010 10:39:35 AM
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rcjames
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U.S. deaths in Afghanistan increase dramatically under Obama's orders see HERE.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/24/2010 11:10:47 AM
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Tarox
Posts: 110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
U.S. deaths in Afghanistan increase dramatically under Obama's orders see HERE.
Thanks
RC
Let me know when you take the politics out of prayer, and I'd love to join your church in earnest prayer for the lives and souls of our soldiers and their enemies.
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/24/2010 2:42:46 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2363
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
U.S. deaths in Afghanistan increase dramatically under Obama's orders see HERE.
Thanks
RC
Yes, it's amazing what happens when you are involved in a conflict and are actually attempting to bring that conflict to a successful conclusion. You'll find RC throughout history that a strategy of sending some men into a war zone for 100 years of staying the course without accomplishing anything is a very unpopular and unwise method of winning a war.
Unless Bush didn't intend on winning this one.
_____________________________
"The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility -- two things that set us apart in much of the world."
-Reagan
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/24/2010 4:08:37 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Yes, it's amazing what happens when you are involved in a conflict and are actually attempting to bring that conflict to a successful conclusion. You'll find RC throughout history that a strategy of sending some men into a war zone for 100 years of staying the course without accomplishing anything is a very unpopular and unwise method of winning a war.
Well this is the first war that our soldiers have been sent into combat with their guns unloaded, ordered not to shoot at anyone who was not shooting at them, to read miranda rights to anyone captured, and then to turn the prisoners of war over to the locals so they can be released to fight again.
But that is what you get with a Politically Correct far left Commander in Chief.
Really sad.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/24/2010 5:47:07 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2363
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Well this is the first war that our soldiers have been sent into combat with their guns unloaded, ordered not to shoot at anyone who was not shooting at them, to read miranda rights to anyone captured, and then to turn the prisoners of war over to the locals so they can be released to fight again.
But that is what you get with a Politically Correct far left Commander in Chief.
Really sad.
Thanks
RC
If they were sent to war with their guns unloaded who sent them? Since when do they read Miranda to who they capture? Historically we are well within our rights to put to death any combatant we capture that isn't part of a regular army or isn't marked as being a part of an irregular army. It has been policy to capture and let them live since we went over there. They are turned back over because there is no legal reason to keep them because from the day we went over we refused to put to death those yellow bellies who take cheap shots at us. The rules for engagement are classified. If we're not allowed to shoot back then someone needs court martialed.
For some of this I agree with you. What confuses me is why get upset about it now when this is what we have been doing since October of 2001.
_____________________________
"The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility -- two things that set us apart in much of the world."
-Reagan
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/24/2010 7:42:32 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
For some of this I agree with you. What confuses me is why get upset about it now when this is what we have been doing since October of 2001.
Actually the rules that I listed are new and fall under Obama's watch.
Remember Gitmo, and the foriegn interrogations (like in Egypt); that is what George W. did, and under his watch the enemy was killed, and the soldiers carried their weapons at the ready.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/24/2010 9:20:22 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 354
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Yes, it's amazing what happens when you are involved in a conflict and are actually attempting to bring that conflict to a successful conclusion. You'll find RC throughout history that a strategy of sending some men into a war zone for 100 years of staying the course without accomplishing anything is a very unpopular and unwise method of winning a war.
Well this is the first war that our soldiers have been sent into combat with their guns unloaded, ordered not to shoot at anyone who was not shooting at them, to read miranda rights to anyone captured, and then to turn the prisoners of war over to the locals so they can be released to fight again.
Got any sources for these claims?
-Dan.
_____________________________
"Abstinence has the word 'abs' in it" - The Situation
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/25/2010 7:24:52 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2363
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
For some of this I agree with you. What confuses me is why get upset about it now when this is what we have been doing since October of 2001.
Actually the rules that I listed are new and fall under Obama's watch.
Remember Gitmo, and the foriegn interrogations (like in Egypt); that is what George W. did, and under his watch the enemy was killed, and the soldiers carried their weapons at the ready.
Thanks
RC
They weren't always killed. If they were, they wouldn't have been in Gitmo.
As Dan said though can you please let us know when B0 changed these orders by linking to them?
_____________________________
"The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility -- two things that set us apart in much of the world."
-Reagan
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/25/2010 11:17:53 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
For some of this I agree with you. What confuses me is why get upset about it now when this is what we have been doing since October of 2001.
Actually the rules that I listed are new and fall under Obama's watch.
Remember Gitmo, and the foriegn interrogations (like in Egypt); that is what George W. did, and under his watch the enemy was killed, and the soldiers carried their weapons at the ready.
Thanks
RC
They weren't always killed. If they were, they wouldn't have been in Gitmo.
As Dan said though can you please let us know when B0 changed these orders by linking to them?
is your google broke, I am a little short of time this AM.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/25/2010 1:51:07 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2363
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quote:
is your google broke, I am a little short of time this AM.
Point me in the direction on the weapons. There is nothing even implying that our soldiers' weapons aren't at the ready or that we read Miranda rights.
_____________________________
"The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility -- two things that set us apart in much of the world."
-Reagan
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/25/2010 10:04:53 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 354
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
is your google broke
Must be, because I couldn't find what you were talking about.
-Dan.
_____________________________
"Abstinence has the word 'abs' in it" - The Situation
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/26/2010 1:38:41 AM
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TrojanHusker
Posts: 587
Joined: 2/24/2010
From: Nebraska
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In 2007 most U.S. troops in Iraq/Afghanistan were forced to carry unloaded weapons on most of U.S. bases. However, my friend served 2 tours in Iraq, and he informs me that once he was out on patrol it was "lock & load". I can't speak for present-day operations in Afghanistan, but I do recall recently reading about theatre commanders refusing to discuss field operational issues due to who might pick up on this information.
It is standard practice (in a known combat situation) to chamber and cock a round but have your weapon on safe, thereby being instantly ready without having to cock your automatic weapon with it's standard 10 round clip (thereby having 11 shots total); Personally, in my experience with the M-16, flicking the selector from safe to auto is in a microsecond; The weapon is designed to instantly chamber a new round once the first one has been discharged.
I do not belive that any US troops in combat situations are being required to have unloaded weapons, but I do understand why during "down time" the chamber would be empty thereby requiring the weapon to be cocked. I could even believe that during visits by elected officials/VIPs/news-reporters the base commander would require magazines to be removed if the soldier is not on duty. Accidental discharges are not only hazardous, they're embarassing; I've personally seen this happen.
I should also add that not all situations are black & white. It would be absurd to allow chambered & cocked rounds while in transport (i.e. Blackhawk or Bradley). It's my opinion that this myth of unloaded weapons has been propagated by journalists and/or politicians who are visiting "behind the lines" and not privy to operational protocol. It may be as simple as hearing about it one time, and assuming it happens all the time and in all situations; As is in this next part -
As far as Miranda Warnings -quote:
A Fox News reporter asks about a Weekly Standard report that detainees were getting read Miranda rights. Petraeus says he has “No concerns at all. This is the FBI doing what the FBI does. … The real rumor yesterday is whether our forces were reading Miranda rights to detainees and the answer to that is no.”
I seem to recall, and can look up if needed, that the first "Mirandizing" of foreign detainees was done at Gitmo in '06 or '07; The reason at the time given by the FBI (who had taken over for the CIA) was that it was made so as to build cases for trial. The FBI sent in "clean teams" to re-interrogate suspects without reference to prior statements. This policy for high value detainees is still in effect in all theatres of war.
I had to come back and edit this, because I wanted to make it perfectly clear that not alot of thought or research has gone into the accusations that I have been reading on these topics. Frankly I'm astounded some folks would use erroneous information about our troops to try and score political points.
< Message edited by TrojanHusker -- 2/26/2010 3:36:48 AM >
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/26/2010 7:59:52 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2363
Joined: 4/14/2005
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Thank you for taking the time to respond so well TrojanHusker, that was very informative.
_____________________________
"The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility -- two things that set us apart in much of the world."
-Reagan
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/26/2010 9:44:06 AM
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TrojanHusker
Posts: 587
Joined: 2/24/2010
From: Nebraska
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Thank you for taking the time to respond so well TrojanHusker, that was very informative.
Thank You.
I've been greatly encouraged this last year by some of the steps taken towards resolving this war - Gen. McChrystal's appointment & the adoption of his methods, the long & thoughtful review this Fall by the Joint Chiefs and the "hammer & anvil" strategy that is currently underway.
Now, that being said, nothing worthwhile is easy; This fight will continue for some time, and be costly in our most precious blood. But if you give an American soldier a goal, a purpose and your full attention then he is the greatest fighter on the planet.
Conventional warfare has never worked well in Afghanistan, hence it's moniker "The graveyard of Empires". Gen. McChrystal has been quoted as saying: "Success demands a comprehensive counterinsurgency campaign."
Strategic Studies Institute - United States Army War College: "Learning from Iraq: Counterinsurgency in American Strategy"
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/26/2010 11:21:26 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
As Dan said though can you please let us know when B0 changed these orders by linking to them?
Sorry for being so slow to respond; you can start here on the Miranda Right thingy;
'
HERE
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/26/2010 11:43:41 AM
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TrojanHusker
Posts: 587
Joined: 2/24/2010
From: Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
As Dan said though can you please let us know when B0 changed these orders by linking to them?
Sorry for being so slow to respond; you can start here on the Miranda Right thingy;
'
HERE
Thanks
RC
Excuse me, but that's about the FBI.
You said -
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Well this is the first war that our soldiers have been sent into combat with their guns unloaded, ordered not to shoot at anyone who was not shooting at them, to read miranda rights to anyone captured, and then to turn the prisoners of war over to the locals so they can be released to fight again.
Please show me where soldiers are reading Miranda.
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RE: Is Afghanistan still a just war? - 2/26/2010 11:49:40 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 3083
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrojanHusker
Please show me where soldiers are reading Miranda.
Captured Taliban are considered terrorist and are turned over to the FBI and CIA on the ground, then are given back to the locals.
Obama considers all terrorism as a crime and not as an enemy combatant.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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Same with the knowledge that Junior Justice didn't keep his gun loaded.
