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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/25/2009 8:05:44 PM
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poetessfree
Posts: 286
Joined: 12/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trinigirl722
I'm jumping in to the conversation here without reading all the previous posts, so I hope that's OK. I apologize -- there are just so many posts, and I don't have time right now to read them all, but I did want to contribute one thought. I hope I'm not repeating what someone else has already said.
And also just a thanks, Poetess, for starting this thread. It's nice to see this discussed since, as you point out, it usually isn't talked about much.
Practically speaking (not theologically as far as whether or not this is a sin, but just practically as far as how this impacts life), I think one danger of masturbation for the single woman is that it could set her up to fall in a dating relationship. Since masturbation stimulates a physical appetite, it could be more difficult to resist temptation in a relationship when a date gets too "handsy" because he is stimulating an appetite that has already been awakened. The body has been programmed to feel that this is normal. However, if my body is not accustomed to that kind of touch and I'm used to denying myself, a date's advances will feel foreign, and it will be easier (and probably a natural reaction) for me to say no.
An analogy that comes to mind is chocolate cake. If I'm on a diet and say "no" to chocolate cake on a regular basis, it's easy for me to say no when someone offers me chocolate cake. But if I eat chocolate cake whenever I feel like it, and then one day I decide I should lose weight, it will be very hard to resist the next time someone offers me chocolate cake because I'm used to enjoying that wonderful chocolatey flavor and creamy, buttery icing whenever I like.
Habits are very powerful. So, I think masturbation could add one more hurdle in the already difficult battle for sexual purity in a dating relationship.
You are welcome Trini 
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/25/2009 10:47:43 PM
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fallenstar
Posts: 19
Joined: 11/29/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
quote:
are not attracted to other people and prefer to have sex with themselves.
wouldn't that be mono-sexual? Also, that just counteracts the idea that masturbation is not sexual.
A monosexual is someone who is sexually attracted to one sex (or gender) only, monosexuality being the corresponding sexual orientation. A monosexual can be either heterosexual or homosexual.
A number of people who consider themselves asexual do have sexual wants, but believe they have no orientation because they are attracted to neither gender.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/25/2009 10:48:03 PM
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trinigirl722
Posts: 281
Joined: 4/8/2007
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
Great, great analogy!!!!!!
Thanks, TR!
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/26/2009 9:31:12 PM
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EnchantedEvening
Posts: 1167
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:
Just wanted to add that one's sexual drive and arousal doesn't just suddenly "awaken" because of sex or masturbation. It's the reality many of us who are older, celibate singles deal with on a daily basis. Why? Because we are human beings and sex drive and arousal are a physiological reality for human beings.
thank you
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/26/2009 10:54:24 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 487
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4IMPersuaded
[
I'm not sure that it is healthy to ignore those "urges" over the long haul. I would fear that getting into the habit of ignoring them would cause problems in a relationship should you enter one after a long period of being single. I can remember as a young bride having a hard enough time being okay with sex on my wedding night after being told since puberty that sex is wrong and to be avoided. They weren't wrong to tell me to avoid pre-marital sex, but the sudden change in mindset was difficult for me to wrap my head around! I wouldn't want to burden anyone else with that additional challenge.
No one said to ignore the urges (which are SEXUAL and any satisfaction of them by oneself is done in a sexual manner, even if one does NOT engage in sex itself)...but to indulge them...is a whole 'nother problem.
I never had a hard time with sex being okay in marriage....even after being celibate. It was something that was taught to look forward to and rejoice in.... I was never told SEX was wrong...but I was taught there was a right time and right place for those urges to be satisfied.
I just find it so funny that the argument for perhaps engaging in masturbation would be that "to ignore these feeling" would lead to problems later....when in reality...dealing with them in a self-controlled and Spirit led manner leads to greater satisfaction in the marital bed later.
I know of MANY couples who never even kissed until their wedding day....and they were constantly warned that they would have problems on their honeymoon as a result....NOT ONE OF THEM DID....in fact...in some ways...I think they enjoyed their honeymoons MORE...because they could freely indulge in the "treat" that they had been withholding from themselves.
I think that one cannot ignore these urges....but if one tries...one is more likely to engage in masturbation rather than turning the urges over to the Lord and using the means of total abstinence as a discipline.
I also find it funny that people who try to say that masturbation is totally okay..and totally NOT sexual say that a young girl should not be afraid to find out what makes her feel good...so she can fill in her husband later. Hello? so....stroking one's self is not sexual...but can help you tell your husband how to give you an orgasm?
I just think that if one is going to buy into secular psychologists determination that masturbation is totally okay and just "scratching an itch"...one should also have the courage to accept THEIR (the secular psychologists) determination that masturbation is SEXUAL....and is a SEXUAL act.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 1:06:14 AM
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solo_soprano
Posts: 1287
Joined: 4/27/2005
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Lol. Leave it to Kristin to say in one post what you were trying to say in twenty! :)
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 8:11:59 AM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 487
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I don't think anyone here is arguing the extreme you are - at least most of us aren't. What we are arguing is to take this to Scripture and Scripture does not call it a sin, so I will not. Scripture is my authority not tradition or "church psychology" (which is just as bad as secular psychology in my opinion). Period. The extreme that I am? That masturbation is a sexual act (as classified by secular psychologists, doctors, etc)? I don't do "church" psychology. I do stand by Scripture, which calls us to throw off ALL sexual immorality and to not give in to carnal (physical) desires outside of the proscribed areas where they are acceptable (in this case...marriage).
There are women in this thread who refuse to admit, regardless, that masturbation is in ANY WAY sexual.....that the need for orgasm is anything but sexual.......
quote:
Some women shouldn't masturbate. Period. That is between them and God and God will convict them if masturbation is not something they can do with a pure heart. I don't think anyone here is arguing that everyone should masturbate. That's absurd too. However, these blanket statements and pop psychology of how "harmful" masturbation is and how it's not "relying" on God is absurd. The same thing is said of so many things and it's simply not in Scripture. Period. And to lay guilt trips on the feet of women who are trying to follow God's will for THEM and stay pure in their hearts and how they go about doing that in a practical sense is downright wrong. And I stand behind Scripture when I state that. Period. I have not made "blanket" statements about how harmful it is...but when I have mentioned the potential harm of masturbation, I have been quite clear that it could POTENTIALLY lead to those things.
Following God's Will...is pretty easy. Relying on God to lead someone is what I have recommended...pointing out that only after God convicts you of masturbation is it then sin.
People on this thread have given practical advice.
Masturbation is a choice. You choose to do it. Period. You can also choose NOT to do it....but if you cannot...if it has such a hold on you that you do it without even thinking about it (absentmindedly?)...then you need to really evaluate your choices.
I can choose to drink until I am drunk (and drunkeness is sin).....or I can choose to limit myself to one drink.
I can choose to indulge my physical need for orgasm by masturbating, OR I can choose to actively pursue something else at that time...what that something else is will depend on the person and what best distracts them from the driving need to have an orgasm. I can choose to NOT indulge my carnal nature by seeking out activities that get my eyes off of me.
quote:
People who are serious about avoiding sin don't just do this nebulous thing called "rely on God" that no one can explain but everyone likes to beat over everyone else's head because it sounds really spiritual. People who are serious about avoiding sin do practical things to stay on the right path. If I am a glutton, I don't simply "lean on God" - I may lock my fridge or get rid of all the junk food in my house. Contrary to what some here think - THAT is leaning on God! If I struggle with gossip, I may need to take myself off the church prayer chain distribution list because what is intended for good, may be too much for me to handle. THAT is leaning on God! If I can't look at a naked body without lusting, maybe I need to avoid working in healthcare (which is not sinful but for some may not be good). THAT is leaning on God.
So if one person finds that masturbation is a way to keep their thoughts pure and avoid sexual sin, why is that "bad" but when someone doesn't kiss until their wedding day for identical reasons something to be applauded and be proud of? Neither are sins according to Scripture. Neither are options for everyone. Neither are even encouraged in Scripture. Both are practical ways some folks use to avoid what Scripture DOES call sin.
So, what's the difference?
The only problem with that is simply this.....masturbation is a sexual act. SO I use a sexual act to avoid sexual sin? How is that avoiding the sin?
I am just substituting something for the actual act.....not avoiding sin at all.
My argument about the kissing was not to "applaud" them..but to point out the falicy of someone else's argument that if one continually "ignores" one's sex drive...one would have issues when one got married. I used an extreme example of how that is simply not true. Sorry it was not a great analogy that made sense to most people.
quote:
What some preacher told us?
Hmmmm..... Whatever happened to being Bereans and testing all things against Scripture? 
Maybe your preacher told you that masturbation is wrong, maybe they never talked about it.
My preacher never put any kind of judgement on it other than that we should honestly evaluate it and why we felt the need for it, and to take those drives and evaluate what Scripture says about them.
Interesting thing about getting into Scripture....it pushes sexual purity. Abstaining from ALL sexual immorality, not merely fornication or adultery, or sodomy, etc. ALL sexual immorality...anything that feeds the carnal mind. That ANY sexual activity outside of marriage is sexual immorality.
So then one has to honestly evaluate masturbation.
It is the deliberate manipulation of one's body in order to mimic the physical response one has with sex. It is a sexual act. Does it belong outside of marriage?
Not according to Scripture.
Is it sin? That completely depends on whether one has been convicted of it or not by God....a child who masturbates is doing it in innocence....just like they play doctor innocently (I doubt anyone would argue that we should not go around doing that as adults or teens?). When one starts to feel guilty, and most do...REGARDLESS of the teaching they have received about it (according to several surveys etc)...one needs to evaluate why.
I have friends whose parents actually encouraged masturbation...because at least that way their daughters and sons would not find themselves in trouble. These friends were NOT taught, either by church, parents or community, that masturbation was wrong....and yet...every single one of them believes that it is wrong. Why?
because it is a sexual act...and sexual acts are reserved for the marriage bed.
Do I care if someone agrees with me on everything?
Not really.
But again, it comes down to knowing what one is doing.
If I am drinking alcohol, I cannot convince myself that I am merely drinking soda by not thinking about it. That WOULD lead to drunkeness or worse.
If I am masturbating, I have to accept that it is a sexual act that I choose to do to bring about sexual release....even if I do it without sexual fantasy or visual stimulation.
The biggest problem with masturbation is...it merely deals with the physical hunger that sex is for. What does it do for the intimacy? Interestingly enough...Intimacy can be had without sex. without sexual activity.
Maybe therein lies the answer...if one seeks intimacy (deep meaningful relationships) one could feed at least half of the hunger...and thus it would be easier to choose not to feed the physical side....because feeding the physical side only leads to more hunger. It does not fully satisfy because it is a poor subsitute.
Rather like...if someone only eats apple pie. Yea...it fills them up. It meets the need for their sweet tooth...but it will not fully satisfy. They will just crave more food....because they are not getting what they need. IF they eat a balanced diet, and abstain from sweets.....they will, at times, still crave sweets, but they can control their need for it....by choosing not to indulge.
IF one seeks deep friendships, within which you can talk about anything, and meets the emotional side of their needs, it is easier to choose not to indulge the physical side of their needs.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 9:44:42 AM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 583
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Interesting thing about getting into Scripture....it pushes sexual purity. Abstaining from ALL sexual immorality, not merely fornication or adultery, or sodomy, etc. ALL sexual immorality...anything that feeds the carnal mind. That ANY sexual activity outside of marriage is sexual immorality.
So then one has to honestly evaluate masturbation.
It is the deliberate manipulation of one's body in order to mimic the physical response one has with sex. It is a sexual act. Does it belong outside of marriage?
W.O.F, I'd SO decided not to post in this thread again  but the argument can't be put any better than this! The whole post gives one cause to wonder!!!
ETA: for me, cause to wonder how masturbating in order to acheive orgasm and satisfy sexual arousal and release sexual tension is "walking in the Spirit that we might not fulfill the desires of the flesh." Does masturbation strenghten our inner man(our spirit man)? As Paul prayed for the church? Does masturbation cause us to become more Christlike? It it spiritual warfare? Is it set apart by God or for God(IOW---is it Holy if so, where does God mention it)? Is it an act of worship/praise? Is it an act where the mental focus is on God?(He'll keep us in perfect peace if our mind is stayed on Him ) Is it a good witness for Christ? is it something that should be done/taught/encouraged for the upliftment of His kingdom or for teaching His principles and who He is? Does it bring God glory?
It makes me wonder......
Does it fall under the category of "things of the world" when scripture says: For all that is in the world-the lust of the flesh [craving for sensual gratification] and the lust of the eyes [greedy longings of the mind] and the pride of life [assurance in one's own resources or in the stability of earthly things]--these do not come from the Father but from the world [itself]. I John 2:16 amplified (emphasis mine.
< Message edited by truthrevealed -- 5/28/2009 10:19:17 AM >
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 10:16:53 AM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 583
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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Sensual: Marked by the appetites and passions of the body, "animal instincts" carnal knowledge, fleshy desire.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 10:52:25 AM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 583
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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W.O.F, you've provoked me to truly evaluate masturbation in lieu of scripture. Still......wondering......if......
Masturbation bears the fruit Christ spoke of in the Gospels?
Is it evidence of our new nature in Christ? (II Corinthians 5:17)
Does it fall under the category of things that we are told to deprive ourselves of in scripture?
So kill (deaden, deprive of power) the evil desire
lurking in your members [those animal impulses and
all that is earthly in you that is employed in sin]:
sexual vice, impurity, sensual appetites,
unholy desires, and all greed and covetousness
for that is idolatry (the deifying of self
and other things created instead of God).
Colossians 3:5 amplified (emphasis mine)
Notice how sensual appetites is mentioned, by God, again. The definition has already been provided. Notice "animal impulse." It is found in the definition of sensual, and sensual gratification, according to God, is "of the world."
I still wonder, if masturbation, which is an act of choice upon the body('cause it's not an act upon the spirit ........
Falls under the category of God's will when He says:
For this is the will of God, that you shoud be
consecrated (separated and set-apart for
pure and holy living): that you should abstain from
sexual vice. That each of you should know how to
possess (contol, manage) his own body in consecration (purity, separated from things profane) and honor, not
[to be used] in the passion of lust like the heathen, who
are ignorant of the true God and have no knowledge of
His will. I Thessalonians 4:3-5 amplified (emphasis mine)
Consecration: a solemn commitment of your life or your time to some cherished purpose(to a service or goal); "set apart"
Is masturbation an act of consecration upon our bodies?
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 11:03:54 AM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 3438
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Here . . . and that's exactly where I want to be!
Status: offline
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W.O.F.,
I completely agree with your most recent post (I'd quote it, but I usually only quote short posts or snippets).
I will however quote this:quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
Maybe therein lies the answer...if one seeks intimacy (deep meaningful relationships) one could feed at least half of the hunger...and thus it would be easier to choose not to feed the physical side....because feeding the physical side only leads to more hunger. It does not fully satisfy because it is a poor subsitute. Very most definitely!
_____________________________
*** Please click HERE to read my final blog post in Teton Rambler ***
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 11:15:03 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 286
Joined: 12/1/2008
Status: offline
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One question to Wof--are you married and if so, for how long?
quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I don't think anyone here is arguing the extreme you are - at least most of us aren't. What we are arguing is to take this to Scripture and Scripture does not call it a sin, so I will not. Scripture is my authority not tradition or "church psychology" (which is just as bad as secular psychology in my opinion). Period. The extreme that I am? That masturbation is a sexual act (as classified by secular psychologists, doctors, etc)? I don't do "church" psychology. I do stand by Scripture, which calls us to throw off ALL sexual immorality and to not give in to carnal (physical) desires outside of the proscribed areas where they are acceptable (in this case...marriage).
There are women in this thread who refuse to admit, regardless, that masturbation is in ANY WAY sexual.....that the need for orgasm is anything but sexual.......
quote:
Some women shouldn't masturbate. Period. That is between them and God and God will convict them if masturbation is not something they can do with a pure heart. I don't think anyone here is arguing that everyone should masturbate. That's absurd too. However, these blanket statements and pop psychology of how "harmful" masturbation is and how it's not "relying" on God is absurd. The same thing is said of so many things and it's simply not in Scripture. Period. And to lay guilt trips on the feet of women who are trying to follow God's will for THEM and stay pure in their hearts and how they go about doing that in a practical sense is downright wrong. And I stand behind Scripture when I state that. Period. I have not made "blanket" statements about how harmful it is...but when I have mentioned the potential harm of masturbation, I have been quite clear that it could POTENTIALLY lead to those things.
Following God's Will...is pretty easy. Relying on God to lead someone is what I have recommended...pointing out that only after God convicts you of masturbation is it then sin.
People on this thread have given practical advice.
Masturbation is a choice. You choose to do it. Period. You can also choose NOT to do it....but if you cannot...if it has such a hold on you that you do it without even thinking about it (absentmindedly?)...then you need to really evaluate your choices.
I can choose to drink until I am drunk (and drunkeness is sin).....or I can choose to limit myself to one drink.
I can choose to indulge my physical need for orgasm by masturbating, OR I can choose to actively pursue something else at that time...what that something else is will depend on the person and what best distracts them from the driving need to have an orgasm. I can choose to NOT indulge my carnal nature by seeking out activities that get my eyes off of me.
quote:
People who are serious about avoiding sin don't just do this nebulous thing called "rely on God" that no one can explain but everyone likes to beat over everyone else's head because it sounds really spiritual. People who are serious about avoiding sin do practical things to stay on the right path. If I am a glutton, I don't simply "lean on God" - I may lock my fridge or get rid of all the junk food in my house. Contrary to what some here think - THAT is leaning on God! If I struggle with gossip, I may need to take myself off the church prayer chain distribution list because what is intended for good, may be too much for me to handle. THAT is leaning on God! If I can't look at a naked body without lusting, maybe I need to avoid working in healthcare (which is not sinful but for some may not be good). THAT is leaning on God.
So if one person finds that masturbation is a way to keep their thoughts pure and avoid sexual sin, why is that "bad" but when someone doesn't kiss until their wedding day for identical reasons something to be applauded and be proud of? Neither are sins according to Scripture. Neither are options for everyone. Neither are even encouraged in Scripture. Both are practical ways some folks use to avoid what Scripture DOES call sin.
So, what's the difference?
The only problem with that is simply this.....masturbation is a sexual act. SO I use a sexual act to avoid sexual sin? How is that avoiding the sin?
I am just substituting something for the actual act.....not avoiding sin at all.
My argument about the kissing was not to "applaud" them..but to point out the falicy of someone else's argument that if one continually "ignores" one's sex drive...one would have issues when one got married. I used an extreme example of how that is simply not true. Sorry it was not a great analogy that made sense to most people.
quote:
What some preacher told us?
Hmmmm..... Whatever happened to being Bereans and testing all things against Scripture?
Maybe your preacher told you that masturbation is wrong, maybe they never talked about it.
My preacher never put any kind of judgement on it other than that we should honestly evaluate it and why we felt the need for it, and to take those drives and evaluate what Scripture says about them.
Interesting thing about getting into Scripture....it pushes sexual purity. Abstaining from ALL sexual immorality, not merely fornication or adultery, or sodomy, etc. ALL sexual immorality...anything that feeds the carnal mind. That ANY sexual activity outside of marriage is sexual immorality.
So then one has to honestly evaluate masturbation.
It is the deliberate manipulation of one's body in order to mimic the physical response one has with sex. It is a sexual act. Does it belong outside of marriage?
Not according to Scripture.
Is it sin? That completely depends on whether one has been convicted of it or not by God....a child who masturbates is doing it in innocence....just like they play doctor innocently (I doubt anyone would argue that we should not go around doing that as adults or teens?). When one starts to feel guilty, and most do...REGARDLESS of the teaching they have received about it (according to several surveys etc)...one needs to evaluate why.
I have friends whose parents actually encouraged masturbation...because at least that way their daughters and sons would not find themselves in trouble. These friends were NOT taught, either by church, parents or community, that masturbation was wrong....and yet...every single one of them believes that it is wrong. Why?
because it is a sexual act...and sexual acts are reserved for the marriage bed.
Do I care if someone agrees with me on everything?
Not really.
But again, it comes down to knowing what one is doing.
If I am drinking alcohol, I cannot convince myself that I am merely drinking soda by not thinking about it. That WOULD lead to drunkeness or worse.
If I am masturbating, I have to accept that it is a sexual act that I choose to do to bring about sexual release....even if I do it without sexual fantasy or visual stimulation.
The biggest problem with masturbation is...it merely deals with the physical hunger that sex is for. What does it do for the intimacy? Interestingly enough...Intimacy can be had without sex. without sexual activity.
Maybe therein lies the answer...if one seeks intimacy (deep meaningful relationships) one could feed at least half of the hunger...and thus it would be easier to choose not to feed the physical side....because feeding the physical side only leads to more hunger. It does not fully satisfy because it is a poor subsitute.
Rather like...if someone only eats apple pie. Yea...it fills them up. It meets the need for their sweet tooth...but it will not fully satisfy. They will just crave more food....because they are not getting what they need. IF they eat a balanced diet, and abstain from sweets.....they will, at times, still crave sweets, but they can control their need for it....by choosing not to indulge.
IF one seeks deep friendships, within which you can talk about anything, and meets the emotional side of their needs, it is easier to choose not to indulge the physical side of their needs.
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 11:16:30 AM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 583
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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W.O.F you've caused me to do a great, yet short study 
God bless you all..........
OUT
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 11:20:42 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 286
Joined: 12/1/2008
Status: offline
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I guess you would have to just keep on wondering...
because this is between God and that person alone. In all your Scriptures you forgot: Romans 8-"There is now no condemnation..."you know the rest, I'm sure.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
Does masturbating: manipulating our bodies for sensual and/or sexual gratification/release fall into the category of things that are of our old selves?
Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavoir governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of God's wrath and heirs of His indignation, like the rest of mankind. Ephesians 2:3 amplified (emphasis and smilely, mine  )
And before I move on, it bears mentioning the scripture that follows 'cause no matter what our particular hang-ups, sin, whatever....
But God-so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own shortcomings and trespassess, He made us alive together in feloowship and in union with Christ.....Ephesians 2:5 amplified (emphasis mine).
I must end, these scriptures are too great for me. What a wonderful God we serve  
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 11:23:23 AM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 3438
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Here . . . and that's exactly where I want to be!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
But God-so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own shortcomings and trespassess, He made us alive together in feloowship and in union with Christ..... AMEN!
Incidentally, I'm not W.O.F, but since I heartily agree with her post, I will answer the question of marriage . . . I am single; I have been single for the past 4 years; and in fact, I have been single for all but 20 months of my entire 45 years.
_____________________________
*** Please click HERE to read my final blog post in Teton Rambler ***
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 12:17:44 PM
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solo_soprano
Posts: 1287
Joined: 4/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I don't think anyone here is arguing the extreme you are - at least most of us aren't. What we are arguing is to take this to Scripture and Scripture does not call it a sin, so I will not. Scripture is my authority not tradition or "church psychology" (which is just as bad as secular psychology in my opinion). Period. The extreme that I am? That masturbation is a sexual act (as classified by secular psychologists, doctors, etc)? I don't do "church" psychology. I do stand by Scripture, which calls us to throw off ALL sexual immorality and to not give in to carnal (physical) desires outside of the proscribed areas where they are acceptable (in this case...marriage).
There are women in this thread who refuse to admit, regardless, that masturbation is in ANY WAY sexual.....that the need for orgasm is anything but sexual.......
quote:
Some women shouldn't masturbate. Period. That is between them and God and God will convict them if masturbation is not something they can do with a pure heart. I don't think anyone here is arguing that everyone should masturbate. That's absurd too. However, these blanket statements and pop psychology of how "harmful" masturbation is and how it's not "relying" on God is absurd. The same thing is said of so many things and it's simply not in Scripture. Period. And to lay guilt trips on the feet of women who are trying to follow God's will for THEM and stay pure in their hearts and how they go about doing that in a practical sense is downright wrong. And I stand behind Scripture when I state that. Period. I have not made "blanket" statements about how harmful it is...but when I have mentioned the potential harm of masturbation, I have been quite clear that it could POTENTIALLY lead to those things.
Following God's Will...is pretty easy. Relying on God to lead someone is what I have recommended...pointing out that only after God convicts you of masturbation is it then sin.
People on this thread have given practical advice.
Masturbation is a choice. You choose to do it. Period. You can also choose NOT to do it....but if you cannot...if it has such a hold on you that you do it without even thinking about it (absentmindedly?)...then you need to really evaluate your choices.
I can choose to drink until I am drunk (and drunkeness is sin).....or I can choose to limit myself to one drink.
I can choose to indulge my physical need for orgasm by masturbating, OR I can choose to actively pursue something else at that time...what that something else is will depend on the person and what best distracts them from the driving need to have an orgasm. I can choose to NOT indulge my carnal nature by seeking out activities that get my eyes off of me.
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People who are serious about avoiding sin don't just do this nebulous thing called "rely on God" that no one can explain but everyone likes to beat over everyone else's head because it sounds really spiritual. People who are serious about avoiding sin do practical things to stay on the right path. If I am a glutton, I don't simply "lean on God" - I may lock my fridge or get rid of all the junk food in my house. Contrary to what some here think - THAT is leaning on God! If I struggle with gossip, I may need to take myself off the church prayer chain distribution list because what is intended for good, may be too much for me to handle. THAT is leaning on God! If I can't look at a naked body without lusting, maybe I need to avoid working in healthcare (which is not sinful but for some may not be good). THAT is leaning on God.
So if one person finds that masturbation is a way to keep their thoughts pure and avoid sexual sin, why is that "bad" but when someone doesn't kiss until their wedding day for identical reasons something to be applauded and be proud of? Neither are sins according to Scripture. Neither are options for everyone. Neither are even encouraged in Scripture. Both are practical ways some folks use to avoid what Scripture DOES call sin.
So, what's the difference?
The only problem with that is simply this.....masturbation is a sexual act. SO I use a sexual act to avoid sexual sin? How is that avoiding the sin?
I am just substituting something for the actual act.....not avoiding sin at all.
My argument about the kissing was not to "applaud" them..but to point out the falicy of someone else's argument that if one continually "ignores" one's sex drive...one would have issues when one got married. I used an extreme example of how that is simply not true. Sorry it was not a great analogy that made sense to most people.
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What some preacher told us?
Hmmmm..... Whatever happened to being Bereans and testing all things against Scripture?
Maybe your preacher told you that masturbation is wrong, maybe they never talked about it.
My preacher never put any kind of judgement on it other than that we should honestly evaluate it and why we felt the need for it, and to take those drives and evaluate what Scripture says about them.
Interesting thing about getting into Scripture....it pushes sexual purity. Abstaining from ALL sexual immorality, not merely fornication or adultery, or sodomy, etc. ALL sexual immorality...anything that feeds the carnal mind. That ANY sexual activity outside of marriage is sexual immorality.
So then one has to honestly evaluate masturbation.
It is the deliberate manipulation of one's body in order to mimic the physical response one has with sex. It is a sexual act. Does it belong outside of marriage?
Not according to Scripture.
Is it sin? That completely depends on whether one has been convicted of it or not by God....a child who masturbates is doing it in innocence....just like they play doctor innocently (I doubt anyone would argue that we should not go around doing that as adults or teens?). When one starts to feel guilty, and most do...REGARDLESS of the teaching they have received about it (according to several surveys etc)...one needs to evaluate why.
I have friends whose parents actually encouraged masturbation...because at least that way their daughters and sons would not find themselves in trouble. These friends were NOT taught, either by church, parents or community, that masturbation was wrong....and yet...every single one of them believes that it is wrong. Why?
because it is a sexual act...and sexual acts are reserved for the marriage bed.
Do I care if someone agrees with me on everything?
Not really.
But again, it comes down to knowing what one is doing.
If I am drinking alcohol, I cannot convince myself that I am merely drinking soda by not thinking about it. That WOULD lead to drunkeness or worse.
If I am masturbating, I have to accept that it is a sexual act that I choose to do to bring about sexual release....even if I do it without sexual fantasy or visual stimulation.
The biggest problem with masturbation is...it merely deals with the physical hunger that sex is for. What does it do for the intimacy? Interestingly enough...Intimacy can be had without sex. without sexual activity.
Maybe therein lies the answer...if one seeks intimacy (deep meaningful relationships) one could feed at least half of the hunger...and thus it would be easier to choose not to feed the physical side....because feeding the physical side only leads to more hunger. It does not fully satisfy because it is a poor subsitute.
Rather like...if someone only eats apple pie. Yea...it fills them up. It meets the need for their sweet tooth...but it will not fully satisfy. They will just crave more food....because they are not getting what they need. IF they eat a balanced diet, and abstain from sweets.....they will, at times, still crave sweets, but they can control their need for it....by choosing not to indulge.
IF one seeks deep friendships, within which you can talk about anything, and meets the emotional side of their needs, it is easier to choose not to indulge the physical side of their needs.
I think many don't think it's sexual, but it can be. I think many times for men and women, it's just not. I don't think it's a refusal to admit, but you can't FORCE people to think something is sexual when they don't see it how you do. <shrugs>
I think women in here have different ways of thinking about it...probably men as well. What I see here mostly is judging it from a personal moral code more than anything. Personal morals are fine-- good for you probably, but then to impose it on everyone else, or tell them they should impose it on themselves isn't right. We're different people; we all don't agree. We won't all agree. Sally thinks it's sex; Mary thinks it's sexual; Jane thinks it's neither. If it's sin to you, then don't do it.  Some women can do it and refrain from sinning, and that's what I see that's not understood. It can be a sin for some, and not for all.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 12:19:24 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 526
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
I think many don't think it's sexual, but it can be. I think many times for men and women, it's just not sexual. I don't think it's a refusal to admit, but you can't FORCE people to think something is sexual when they don't see it how you do. <shrugs>
I think women in here have different ways of thinking about it...probably men as well.
I just don't get how it's NOT sexual? Even my highly secular psych books consider it a sexual act.
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 1:08:13 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 487
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
Status: offline
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For the record for those who asked...I am married..and have been for 20 years this summer. That said...I was a very highly wired single prior to marriage...and within my marriage, due to health issues, and work schedules there have been LONG deserts of activity.
BUT....my convictions/beliefs/ are from when I was a single. They have been with me, from my own studies,etc. since I was about 14. This was after being told by James Dobson that masturbation was okay......
When people assume that it is only singles that deal with this..they are sorely mistaken. Just because you are married does NOT mean that your needs are automatically met....
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
I think many don't think it's sexual, but it can be. I think many times for men and women, it's just not sexual. I don't think it's a refusal to admit, but you can't FORCE people to think something is sexual when they don't see it how you do. <shrugs>
I think women in here have different ways of thinking about it...probably men as well.
I just don't get how it's NOT sexual? Even my highly secular psych books consider it a sexual act.
Its not sexual to them because they choose for it not to be. They choose to believe that it is their hand having a mind of its own rather than a deliberate choice they make.
It really is about realizing that it is a CHOICE...not something that just happens.
I think Truthrevealed really summed it up better than I have.
How is indulging in masturbation fulfilling our call?
and yes...before anyone else goes there...there are other things that can get in the way of fulfilling our calling to God..and we are called to put them aside as well. No one said it was easy or fun....
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/28/2009 1:26:22 PM
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solo_soprano
Posts: 1287
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline
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Wifey, it would probably depend on the definition of "sexual" that one uses. I studied the psychology of human sexuality, as well as some other "blanket" psychologies, but I never always agreed with their stance on masturbation or the conclusion that it is always sexual. If simply touching one's genitals is sexual, then I can understand that being "sexual." Otherwise, it's dependant on the individual and what the individual does and why. That's why I consider it sinful for some, but it's not 100% sinful 100% of the time for anyone that mastubates, and sex doesn't have to have any connection (other than touching one's sex organs, which may be-- or more than likely is technically "sexual"). I understand what the rest of you are saying, but it depends on how a person thinks about it, I believe. At least that's what it seems like from what I see being said.
ETA: I think perhaps instead of trying to define masturbation by somebody's standards, we should just try to evaluate it from a Biblical viewpoint and leave that alone. If someone can refrain from sinning (impure thoughts, etc.) and not let it out of control, it's not sinful. Many things are that way (a sinless activity that can go bad, depending on who it is)... food, video games, shopping, alcohol, hobbies... I thought the Bible said something about that (what's a sin for one may not be a sin for another), but I may be mistaken.
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 5/28/2009 2:43:55 PM >
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