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So to me, the disagreement is whether masturbating is having sex.

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We keep talking about releasing these feelings...why don't we just be blatently honest and call it what it is....the need for an orgasm.

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The difference between being hungry or needing to urinate and the "need" for orgasm is this....you will die if you don't eat or urinate....you will not die if you don't get an orgasm.

Will you miss it...Oh yeah....but you will not die.

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ORIGINAL: poetessfree

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ORIGINAL: MerciesFailNot

In my opinion, it can only be sexual if a person has a partner. You can't have sex by yourself. How could you?

Porn and fantasies are wrong and sinful either alone or with a partner/spouse. So we can rule that out.

Spontaneous orgasms (like in ones sleep) can't be helped, so I guess there's no need to discuss that either.

So to me, the disagreement is whether masturbating is having sex. I don't feel like it is. Is it sexual? Again, I don't feel like it is.

I think it was Gail in a few posts above who said that she can honestly say that she is not having sex and therefore not committing sin because she is single. (if i understand her correctly.) And I think that she is right. A single person is staying pure if they are not having sex or sexual experiences with another person.

I haven't engaged in this practice because I don't need to, but if I were single and never planned on getting married again (like Gail said) and still had those natural feelings, I would probably do what Gail is doing to relieve those feelings. As long as there is no porn or sinful, lustful thoughts, it isn't sin.

I can't imagine that masturbating gives pleasure that comes even close to the pleasure one receives with a partner/spouse. Sex with the one you love has so many aspects that masturbating doesnt have. With another person there is the love, closeness, oneness, joint pleasure, after-glow, and joy that lasts for hours. It brings peace and good health. I would think that all masturbating does is relieve the physical need. Period.

I don't know if I am making any sense, but I do understand what Gail and other are saying about it not being sex or sexual and them not feeling bad or sinful.

It's such a personal thing, I find myself surprised that I'm even discussing it!

Your post is insightful! This topic comes up every blue moon in churches/conferences I've frequented and we quickly shush it away because we are ashamed or guilty or both. I think that discussing this will free some people, amen. As a matter of fact, I went to a women's summit this past Saturday and the pastor was saying something about casting out the spirit of masturbation. I thought that now people who masturbate are possessed . Oddly, I only hear this from women pastors. I have never ever heard a male pastor speak on masturbation. I wonder why...scratches chin....

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ORIGINAL: zoebob

Nobody has said it is a sex act. They have said it is a sexUAL act. There is a difference. They are not the same thing.

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my opinion was based on tradition and culture - not on what Scripture actually SAID and didn't say. And that was a problem.

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ORIGINAL: truthrevealed



That being said, and for the sake of this discussion. There are plenty things that we can all list that are not clearly stated in the bible as "thou shalt and thou shalt not."

The argument that masturbation is a tool that prevents singles from fornicating-----uh----that's the power of the Holy Spirit alone, IMO. Has God ordained masturbation to prevent singles---(and some marrieds ) from temptation??!!? I believe that He alone is able to keep us from stumbling and that masturbation is human effort trying to maintain[/i] and contain fleshly/human desires!

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I won't even discuss masturbating without anything mental or visual to stimulate arousal----I'll never believe it's possible---I don't care who you are!!

I'm more concerned with the arguments for masturbation than condemning those who do it. We all fall short!

ETA: The bible doesn't clearly state that masturbation is against God's best(i.e sin) but it being such a "natural" act the bible doesn't give us mention of any one who engaged in the act either---Paul, Jesus??!!

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ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
The argument that masturbation is a tool that prevents singles from fornicating-----uh----that's the power of the Holy Spirit alone, IMO. Has God ordained masturbation to prevent singles---(and some marrieds ) from temptation??!!? I believe that He alone is able to keep us from stumbling and that masturbation is human effort trying to manintain[/i] and contain fleshly/human desires!

I'm not willing to tell the Holy Spirit how He can or cannot operate. I personally know of ways God helps me avoid temptation in other areas by using "earthly" tools and if that's how He chooses to keep me from sin, Alleluia! The fact of the matter "will-power" to just not do it is an "earthly tool" too. The Bible says the Holy Spirit will always give us a way out of temptation. It doesn't say what that way is. Period. So, who am I to tell God how He can keep me or someone else on the straight and narrow. If this is what helps someone else, who am I to condemn them when Scripture doesn't?

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I won't even discuss masturbating without anything mental or visual to stimulate arousal----I'll never believe it's possible---I don't care who you are!!

I used to think the same way. Then I realized that just because I'm wired one way, does NOT mean everyone is wired that way.

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ETA: The bible doesn't clearly state that masturbation is against God's best(i.e sin) but it being such a "natural" act the bible doesn't give us mention of any one who engaged in the act either---Paul, Jesus??!!

Sorry, but that's absurd. The Bible never mentions Paul or Jesus going to the bathroom but I'm pretty darn sure they did.

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ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
One can masturbate and stay a virgin. One can have oral sex and stay a virgin. BUT is one staying sexually pure?

First, one cannot have oral sex outside the marriage bed and stay pure because oral sex is sex with another individual but that's a different topic. The same would be true of masturbating with another person. Even THINKING of doing that with someone other than your spouse is lust which Jesus calls adultery.

As far as masturbation, again, if the Bible doesn't condemn it as sin (and it gives us a very detailed list of all the things that are sinful), how can we say that it makes someone sexually impure? Everyone has sexual feelings and sensations - wet dreams anyone? If self-manipulation relieves and "calms" those sexual sensations for someone, who am I to tell them their actions are impure. Once again, the Bible doesn't say that. We can run in circles all we want. We can jump up and down and come up with every definition known to man that we can think of but the bottom line is this: IF someone can masturbate without lusting... IF someone can masturbate without it becoming an addiction or an obsession... Well, that is between them and God.

If YOU can't do this without it causing lust or leading you into an addiction:
DON'T DO IT! But be very careful about assuming how you respond is how everyone responds.

There are many things that lead me into sin that I MUST avoid that my neighbor may not have an issue with. This is where Scripture tells us we must decide for ourselves what is right and do what WE as individuals must do to avoid sin.

Period.

_____________________________

~Kristin~

As of 5/22/11, 73 Law Enforcement Officers were killed in the line of duty in the US. Please pray for the thin blue line.

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I'm not willing to tell the Holy Spirit how He can or cannot operate

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ORIGINAL: fallenstar

I would rather masturbate than have pre-marital sex. I see nothing wrong with masturbation, and I take no shame in doing it.

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And what about women that are asexual?

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ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

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ORIGINAL: fallenstar

I would rather masturbate than have pre-marital sex. I see nothing wrong with masturbation, and I take no shame in doing it.

Why does it have to be either/or? It COULD be neither.

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And what about women that are asexual?

As in, doesn't have sexual urges? Seems pretty clear to me.

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ORIGINAL: phosadaud

I don't know why I'm posting here and may not post after this, but here it goes.

It doesn't matter what masturbation is or isn't. This entire argument of sex, sexual, need, etc, is rather silly to me. Who cares? Seriously? What matters is whether or not it's a sin. And, no matter how many ways we can try to read, re-read, interpret, re-interpet, and run around playing with bible verses, there is not one single place in Scripture that condemns masturbation. Not one.

Pornography was given as an example but there are plenty of Scriptures that condemn that because that is Lust and Lust is wrong. Sexually claiming for yourself - even in just your mind - someone who is not your spouse is wrong. Period. Masturbation is a completely different beast.

But let's get back to why masturbation is completely amiss in Scripture. I mean, this is odd if you really think about it. This is something that 99.99% of people will discover on their own just because they are human and explore their bodies. And masturbation didn't start recently. Why would something that 99.99% of people try at least once not be even mentioned a single time in Scripture if it was a sin? I mean, think about all the sexual sins the Bible lists! Bestiality and necrophilia are listed and I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of folks never have even the slightest thought or temptation in that regard. So why list those sins but not the one that EVERY ONE will face and struggle with?

Sorry folks, but the God I believe in is not stupid or forgetful.

So what do we do? Well, we have to each look into our own hearts and prayerfully consider whether our hearts are clean before the Lord. For some, masturbation may not be possible without lust, without leading to increased drive and temptation. For those women, I think it is fairly obvious that masturbation should be avoided. For others, they can masturbate without lusting and for them it is a release that simmers down that pot of sexual tension (and I know women for whom this is the case so some of you need to stop dictating what you think it does for them... good grief... ) so they CAN keep their hearts and minds clean and freed from sexual temptation. For them, why do we condemn what God doesn't?

Seriously, this is exactly what Paul tells us to about. This is a gray area that is not mentioned in Scripture and as such, Paul tells us specifically that we each must be convinced in our own minds and do as WE are led. To heep guilt on others for something the Bible does not do, is treading in very dangerous waters. Don't assume that your experience with masturbation is how EVERY woman will experience masturbation. There are many things I honestly don't get in how other folks respond to things, but I've learned over the years that doesn't mean everyone else is wrong - it just means we're DIFFERENT. That's ok!

Do I have an "answer" for this thread? No. I can say that I used to be quite dogmatic in terms of masturbation being wrong, but I was challenged by a very godly and Scriptural reading once and realized that my opinion was based on tradition and culture - not on what Scripture actually SAID and didn't say. And that was a problem. So should women masturbate? I don't have a clue, but I cannot and will not condemn something that the Bible doesn't. I'm not God and I won't place myself on His throne. Period.

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are not attracted to other people and prefer to have sex with themselves.

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ORIGINAL: phosadaud

I don't know why I'm posting here and may not post after this, but here it goes.

It doesn't matter what masturbation is or isn't. This entire argument of sex, sexual, need, etc, is rather silly to me. Who cares? Seriously? What matters is whether or not it's a sin. And, no matter how many ways we can try to read, re-read, interpret, re-interpet, and run around playing with bible verses, there is not one single place in Scripture that condemns masturbation. Not one.

Pornography was given as an example but there are plenty of Scriptures that condemn that because that is Lust and Lust is wrong. Sexually claiming for yourself - even in just your mind - someone who is not your spouse is wrong. Period. Masturbation is a completely different beast.

But let's get back to why masturbation is completely amiss in Scripture. I mean, this is odd if you really think about it. This is something that 99.99% of people will discover on their own just because they are human and explore their bodies. And masturbation didn't start recently. Why would something that 99.99% of people try at least once not be even mentioned a single time in Scripture if it was a sin? I mean, think about all the sexual sins the Bible lists! Bestiality and necrophilia are listed and I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of folks never have even the slightest thought or temptation in that regard. So why list those sins but not the one that EVERY ONE will face and struggle with?

Sorry folks, but the God I believe in is not stupid or forgetful.

So what do we do? Well, we have to each look into our own hearts and prayerfully consider whether our hearts are clean before the Lord. For some, masturbation may not be possible without lust, without leading to increased drive and temptation. For those women, I think it is fairly obvious that masturbation should be avoided. For others, they can masturbate without lusting and for them it is a release that simmers down that pot of sexual tension (and I know women for whom this is the case so some of you need to stop dictating what you think it does for them... good grief... ) so they CAN keep their hearts and minds clean and freed from sexual temptation. For them, why do we condemn what God doesn't?

Seriously, this is exactly what Paul tells us to about. This is a gray area that is not mentioned in Scripture and as such, Paul tells us specifically that we each must be convinced in our own minds and do as WE are led. To heep guilt on others for something the Bible does not do, is treading in very dangerous waters. Don't assume that your experience with masturbation is how EVERY woman will experience masturbation. There are many things I honestly don't get in how other folks respond to things, but I've learned over the years that doesn't mean everyone else is wrong - it just means we're DIFFERENT. That's ok!

Do I have an "answer" for this thread? No. I can say that I used to be quite dogmatic in terms of masturbation being wrong, but I was challenged by a very godly and Scriptural reading once and realized that my opinion was based on tradition and culture - not on what Scripture actually SAID and didn't say. And that was a problem. So should women masturbate? I don't have a clue, but I cannot and will not condemn something that the Bible doesn't. I'm not God and I won't place myself on His throne. Period.

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ORIGINAL: 4IMPersuaded

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my opinion was based on tradition and culture - not on what Scripture actually SAID and didn't say. And that was a problem.

You know, that's kind of where I was going as I read through many of the posts on this thread. I have been married since I was barely 20 years old, so I feel poorly equipped to say what a single woman should or shouldn't do. I can barely remember being a single woman. These are very interesting and well stated points.

I agree with phosadaud. Most of what we believe about masturbation stems from the taboos and social morays of society, not from what is biblical. I honestly think that the guilt and shame that the op described was likely a direct result of socialization and quite possibly not from God. Not everything we feel guilty about is a sin. I feel guilty that I'm not sending my child to summer school, but that isn't a sin.

Anything that becomes more important to you than God is sinful, so it COULD become sinful in that regard, but a physiological response to self manipulation isn't a sin. I feel like it is in a small way similar to the looks of disgust I endured when I modestly nursed my babies in the mall or at a restaurant. It is a perfectly natural function that my body was designed to perform and so many are uncomfortable with it. It isn't a perfect analogy, but I hope you see my point.

I wouldn't presume to tell a single woman to abstain if it helps her to avoid stupid choices that lead to actual sin. If you really feel that God has cautioned you against it, maybe He has. Perhaps you were in danger of the act itself becoming sinful due to lust or simply pre-occupation. I don't think that we have the right to thrust shame on others if they choose to do so in the privacy of their own home.

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ORIGINAL: truthrevealed

Speaking for myself . I feel about this issue as I do any thing, even those things clearly forbidden in scripture----do what you want to do. I personally don't have(and neither does any human being) a heaven or hell to put you in---period!!!!!! I certainly don't want to be responsible for the condemnation of any of God's children---I unfortunately have lived with enough of it not to want to see others deal with it!

That being said, and for the sake of this discussion. There are plenty things that we can all list that are not clearly stated in the bible as "thou shalt and thou shalt not."

The argument that masturbation is a tool that prevents singles from fornicating-----uh----that's the power of the Holy Spirit alone, IMO. Has God ordained masturbation to prevent singles---(and some marrieds ) from temptation??!!? I believe that He alone is able to keep us from stumbling and that masturbation is human effort trying to manintain[/i] and contain fleshly/human desires!

I won't even discuss masturbating without anything mental or visual to stimulate arousal----I'll never believe it's possible---I don't care who you are!!

I'm more concerned with the arguments for masturbation than condemning those who do it. We all fall short!

ETA: The bible doesn't clearly state that masturbation is against God's best(i.e sin) but it being such a "natural" act the bible doesn't give us mention of any one who engaged in the act either---Paul, Jesus??!!

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The point is that it is possible, and just because you don't believe it doesn't make it less true.

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ORIGINAL: poetessfree

I stated that I felt guilty. I didn't say it was a sin. I had actually bolded that.

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I think one danger of masturbation for the single woman is that it could set her up to fall in a dating relationship. Since masturbation stimulates a physical appetite, it could be more difficult to resist temptation in a relationship when a date gets too "handsy" because he is stimulating an appetite that has already been awakened. The body has been programmed to feel that this is normal. However, if my body is not accustomed to that kind of touch and I'm used to denying myself, a date's advances will feel foreign, and it will be easier (and probably a natural reaction) for me to say no.

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ORIGINAL: 4IMPersuaded

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ORIGINAL: poetessfree

I stated that I felt guilty. I didn't say it was a sin. I had actually bolded that.

Actually I did get that... I was referring to the guilt that you described. The "sin" that I was referring to has been defined by some in this thread as being evidenced by guilt. One point that I was trying to make is that feeling guilty isn't necessarily evidence of sin. Sometimes we feel guilty because we are not living up to the standards that other impose on us. I feel guilty that my house isn't as clean as my mother's... that doesn't make it a sin.

I am actually fine with the idea that a married woman shouldn't masterbate unless she is separated from her husband (as in the case of a deployed soldier, or perhaps an illness). Paul clearly admonishes us not to deprive each other in marriage. I am less comfortable telling a single woman to abstain when she has no biblical outlet with a partner.

I think phosodaud made a very interesting point when she pointed out that the bible addresses incest, necrophilia, homosexual behavior, etc, but not masterbation. I'm against the idea of flexible or situational ethics, but in this context, I think it may be warranted. God makes no statement about it, so perhaps he deals with each individual on the subject. I don't feel comfortable telling my single friends that it is wrong.

I'm not sure that it is healthy to ignore those "urges" over the long haul. I would fear that getting into the habit of ignoring them would cause problems in a relationship should you enter one after a long period of being single. I can remember as a young bride having a hard enough time being okay with sex on my wedding night after being told since puberty that sex is wrong and to be avoided. They weren't wrong to tell me to avoid pre-marital sex, but the sudden change in mindset was difficult for me to wrap my head around! I wouldn't want to burden anyone else with that additional challenge.