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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/1/2009 2:05:02 PM
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tinydancer2
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quote:
Teens can abstain from it just like they can abstain from other sexual expressions. They're not animals with no self-control, unlike the media and Planned Parenthood would have us believe.
I do not agree that is the media or PP wanting us to believe teens are animals. In my understanding the Lord i the Bible is the One calling wicked those who not acknonlegede His ways and go their own ways. When we are wicked we are all/ages/genders like animals/brutes/beasts. (Ps 49:20 ; Titus 1:12) and my very favorite personal one Psalm 73! And when get to..: "When my heart was grieved and my spirit embittered I was senseless and ignorant; I was a brute beast before you." was realization I was blind indeed , had no light or understanding as the Bible say of those who does not know God. In my case I was blind and could see when belonged and start to get to know the Lord a 33 years old.
Self control from the will and self control as fruit of The Spirit is different to me. Will power by itself and without yielding toResident inside us (if there is Dvine Resident in us instructing us as we do give Him freedom as the Bible tells us so.) in my understanding by ourselves and without Him we can do nothing, He is the Vine and our new life supply for everything. To come up with ways and manners of men to deal with masturbation we can see that in the Bible in the law of Moises and Jewish practices and other observations as from Augustine differenciating masturabation as volunteer act or involunteer act (when someone is sleeping is not their "faults"). Than in my understanding there is a code in place as when it is sin and when its not sin, regarding confession practices religion teaches.
Religion is religion and we can see religion of men in the Bible. When men come up saying men become cerimonialy unclean by having regular sex with their wives. (Lev 15:18) Or women are unclean because period. The Law made many things forbiden. Nowdays, it seems much has not change as depending of specific religion and denomination ways to interpret Bible texts approach will be different. There are some who may think they can lose salvation very ease and have their own dinamics of understanding of faith and God of their own, pleasing and displeasing the Lord.
I do find the subject fascinating because it have been going on for a long long time and the ways of dealing with it we can read in history as religion and secular influences taking place in people behaviours. I do think because sex is place in a pedestral and may be idolized many out of proportion/without strain many who practice sex as sin (outside marriage bed that is undefiled) by those who does not believe or follow Bible truth does not acknowlegde or chose to rebel against it by disregard named sexual sin in the Bible:fornication, adultery and to engage in non natural ways and etc
The Bible is there to all to open read and be enlightening by it, still there is a somber warning for those adding or taking from what the Bible text says about anything. Men can lead others ashtrays by being wicked as a beast brute blind leading other blinds as men who are religious and adding weights and more weights like Phariseus in other peoples backs and etc. We are called to be Bereans and go read Scriptures by ourselves, even when teachers are teaching it, we must check it for ourselves.
_____________________________
1 Peter 1
A Living Hope, and a Sure Salvation.This hope an anchor to the soul. Blessed be the Triuno Lord Almighty.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/1/2009 3:18:44 PM
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poetessfree
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
As hard as it is for adults, I don't expect teenagers, if they are doing this, to have this thing under perfect control. I wouldn't expect them to. They are baby Christians.
Some teenagers have been Christians for 10 years or more. 
As for males, I don't want to get too deeply into that discussion. I figured we were talking about females. But I will say that wet dreams aren't sexual, but a physical release - involuntary, and God-given. Whatever dreams are there in the course of it have MUCH to do with what one has been taking in - movies, books, whatever - so if one wants to control the thoughts, one must control what goes through the eyes/ears to the brain. However, manually working the mechanism to get release is a different issue. That's voluntary and controllable.
I agree to a point ta_mos and I apologize. I don't talk about myself being a teenage girl wayyyy back then because I was without Christ. I talk about teenage boys because I have one. Now, say a boy likes a girl and then thinks about her all the time, goes to bed and wakes up with a mess. It isn't always something evil that might trigger that dream, that is what I am saying. Not every evil is associated with masturbating. It may not be porn, or dirty mags, internet or books. It could just be that a boy likes a girl, thinks about him/her and is then trying to figure out what to do with those desires. Desire/lust is a very strong emotion & is hard to control as an adult. I think all we can do as parents, mentors, teachers is just tell them that whatever they're feeling boy or girl is God-given but should be saved for marriage and if they have guilt/shame from trying to quit and are not successful, to pray for them, let them know that they are forgiven from a forgiving God and that He can help them if they are struggling with this.
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/1/2009 3:50:51 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
Now, say a boy likes a girl and then thinks about her all the time, goes to bed and wakes up with a mess. It isn't always something evil that might trigger that dream, that is what I am saying. Not every evil is associated with masturbating. It may not be porn, or dirty mags, internet or books. It could just be that a boy likes a girl, thinks about him/her and is then trying to figure out what to do with those desires.
I do not consider wet dreams to be masturbation. M is a willful, deliberate manipulation of your body to produce a good feeling/reaction. It's not the involuntary release during the night.
I would be disgusted if I learned that anyone (adult or teen, when I was a teen) had "desired" me, then masturbated while thinking of me.  
quote:
I think all we can do as parents, mentors, teachers is just tell them that whatever they're feeling boy or girl is God-given but should be saved for marriage and if they have guilt/shame from trying to quit and are not successful, to pray for them, let them know that they are forgiven from a forgiving God and that He can help them if they are struggling with this.
I heartily agree.
_____________________________
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/4/2009 9:21:50 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 286
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
Now, say a boy likes a girl and then thinks about her all the time, goes to bed and wakes up with a mess. It isn't always something evil that might trigger that dream, that is what I am saying. Not every evil is associated with masturbating. It may not be porn, or dirty mags, internet or books. It could just be that a boy likes a girl, thinks about him/her and is then trying to figure out what to do with those desires.
I do not consider wet dreams to be masturbation. M is a willful, deliberate manipulation of your body to produce a good feeling/reaction. It's not the involuntary release during the night.
I would be disgusted if I learned that anyone (adult or teen, when I was a teen) had "desired" me, then masturbated while thinking of me.
Yeah, now that you say that, a little disgusting. So, we pray.
quote:
I think all we can do as parents, mentors, teachers is just tell them that whatever they're feeling boy or girl is God-given but should be saved for marriage and if they have guilt/shame from trying to quit and are not successful, to pray for them, let them know that they are forgiven from a forgiving God and that He can help them if they are struggling with this.
I heartily agree.
Thanks Ta_Mos  I pray that those people who read these posts and struggle with this issue is made free in the name of Jesus the Christ and Lord and are healed completely! You are not alone in this, many have this stronghold and many more are being set free, just know that there are prayer warriors out here who pray to the Father in Jesus that this bondage will no longer hold captive, His dear children. Don't give up, just keep going back to the Lord, no matter what with a willing heart & desire to be delivered. To God be the glory, forever and ever!!
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/4/2009 9:22:51 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 286
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
Now, say a boy likes a girl and then thinks about her all the time, goes to bed and wakes up with a mess. It isn't always something evil that might trigger that dream, that is what I am saying. Not every evil is associated with masturbating. It may not be porn, or dirty mags, internet or books. It could just be that a boy likes a girl, thinks about him/her and is then trying to figure out what to do with those desires.
I do not consider wet dreams to be masturbation. M is a willful, deliberate manipulation of your body to produce a good feeling/reaction. It's not the involuntary release during the night.
I would be disgusted if I learned that anyone (adult or teen, when I was a teen) had "desired" me, then masturbated while thinking of me.
Yeah, now that you say that, a little disgusting. So, we pray.
quote:
I think all we can do as parents, mentors, teachers is just tell them that whatever they're feeling boy or girl is God-given but should be saved for marriage and if they have guilt/shame from trying to quit and are not successful, to pray for them, let them know that they are forgiven from a forgiving God and that He can help them if they are struggling with this.
I heartily agree.
Thanks Ta_Mos I pray that those people who read these posts and struggle with this issue is made free in the name of Jesus the Christ and Lord and are healed completely! You are not alone in this, many have this stronghold and many more are being set free, just know that there are prayer warriors out here who pray to the Father in Jesus that this bondage will no longer hold captive, His dear children. Don't give up, just keep going back to the Lord, no matter what with a willing heart & desire to be delivered. To God be the glory, forever and ever!!
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/4/2009 1:02:24 PM
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tinydancer2
Posts: 185
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Ladies, I was and keep thinking about the many layers of the subject still..and Ido believe in prevention be a good road about being aware formation of habits and many habits are not healthy. Habits are formed when people are young and I suppose parents must be alert when training their kids, the Bible is clear about adults suppose to train children in His ways and commomsense social ways also.
At least in my understanding nowdays activities are not much healthy wise as too much passive activities (tv, pc and etc), as I do think because many families both parents are working kids may left to themselves and go unsupervised, than adding different circunstances to a young life she/he gets bored and ends up having escapist activities to kill the time or emptiness or whatever she/he is lacking. Now,with so many kids diagnosed nowdays with add adhd or other stuff it does not surprise me that many kids grow up using masturbation as escape, as other activities. By the timthe kid grow and become adult the masturbation became stronghold.
Than the idea to keep kids busy in physical activities still a comomsense one, as kids are not active as the used to even getting obese in great proportion as adults are means consume more calories than body burned. Still just keep kids busy without wisdom, may stress them out. I do think makes sense to discover kids passions and than she/he will get busy and enjoying noescapists activities. Now, I do think parents must pay attention to girls because of novels and romance and those escapist activities. It seems that to some women those romances triggeres endorphines as porn does to males. Than to some young women it is wise for parents to strong regulate their escapist readings.
Humm at least in my head makes a lot of sense to really focus on helping people while they are very young and nowdays young people are becoming involved in grown up issues very young. Hopefuly Christian parents have way more influence in their kids life than their peers and other stuff. But as the statistics shows adult Christians themselves are involved in the same activities as secular adults are..its hypocrisy to preach something and live another.
May the Lord Himself do divine intervention in adults lives and set them as an exemple and influence to their kids.
_____________________________
1 Peter 1
A Living Hope, and a Sure Salvation.This hope an anchor to the soul. Blessed be the Triuno Lord Almighty.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/4/2009 4:49:01 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11298
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
You are not alone in this, many have this stronghold and many more are being set free, just know that there are prayer warriors out here who pray to the Father in Jesus that this bondage will no longer hold captive, His dear children. Don't give up, just keep going back to the Lord, no matter what with a willing heart & desire to be delivered. To God be the glory, forever and ever!!
For the record, this isn't an area of bondage for me.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/4/2009 5:17:42 PM
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W.O.F.
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and for the record...women can and do have the equivalent of wet dreams.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/5/2009 9:27:56 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 286
Joined: 12/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
You are not alone in this, many have this stronghold and many more are being set free, just know that there are prayer warriors out here who pray to the Father in Jesus that this bondage will no longer hold captive, His dear children. Don't give up, just keep going back to the Lord, no matter what with a willing heart & desire to be delivered. To God be the glory, forever and ever!!
For the record, this isn't an area of bondage for me.
I wasn't referring to you. Sorry it was miscontrued.
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/5/2009 9:29:15 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 286
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
and for the record...women can and do have the equivalent of wet dreams.
that is interesting...pondering on that for awhile....thanks
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/5/2009 11:52:12 AM
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Gail7364
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I read the first page and came on over here to the end. So I may be repeating what has already been said.
I think people feel guilty about masturbation because we were taught it was shameful to look at, touch, or play with, our "private parts". I know that I was taught that as I grew up. Then when I got married, all of a sudden it was okay. Well, it wasn't. I felt as much shame on my wedding night and for years afterwards because of my teachings. Just because a man standing at the front of the church said I was married, it didn't take away the shame that I had been taught for years. I know that a whole lot of other women had the same problem because we have talked about it. The shame that we were taught didn't just leave when we walked down the aisle.
That being said, if a person (woman or man) can get over the shame that they were taught by their parents and preachers and Sunday School teachers, they would realize that their body is okay. Do you feel shame or embarrassed to look at yourself in the mirror? Do you feel shame or embarrassed to wash yourself in the bath? Do you feel shame to walk through the house naked if all the window blinds are shut? If the answer is No, then why would you feel shame or embarrassed to satisfy a physical need?
I don't feel shame, embarrassed or sinful about masturbation. It is no more wrong than washing myself to stay clean. I have a physical need that will never be satisfied in a marriage bed because I am never going to get married again. And I sure won't commit fornication/adultery with a man. So my "normal" sex life is over far too soon in my opinion. My body has needs. They are healthy needs. And the relief is actually good for the body - the heart, blood pressure, sense of well-being, and yes mind and soul. The only time that it would be a sin is if a person has to watch porn or think of a man to get satisfaction. That is where the sin comes in.
In my case - just to be very frank - I still feel married to my ex-husband. In the eyes of God he is still my husband even if he is living with another woman. We are married until death parts us - not another woman. So if I lay and remember having sex with my husband, then I do not feel like I am sinning. No more than a widow would be sinning in the same situation.
It all depends on an individual's guilt feelings, mindset, and intentions of the heart. If my butt itches, I scratch it (except in public). If my nose itches, I scratch it. If I have a feeling of sexual need, I scratch it, so to speak. And afterwards, I feel very relaxed and satisfied. If I don't satisfy the need, I don't feel near as good, and then those feelings turn into sadness and depression because of the loss of my marriage.
Maybe no one understands what I am saying or agrees, but in the end, it's between each individual person and God.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/5/2009 12:28:20 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11298
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
If the answer is No, then why would you feel shame or embarrassed to satisfy a physical need?
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I have a physical need that will never be satisfied in a marriage bed because I am never going to get married again. And I sure won't commit fornication/adultery with a man. So my "normal" sex life is over far too soon in my opinion. My body has needs. They are healthy needs.
The issue is whether it is a physical NEED.
It's like an addiction to caffeine. You are used to it. You want it. You may get headaches if you don't have it. But do you NEED it? Maybe for a while because you're addicted. But I'd venture to guess that if one were to stay away from it and work through the withdrawal symptoms, they would eventually ease.
Does a girl who has never experienced sex/masturbation have the same NEED? No, not generally. Until those feelings/sensations are awakened, they are not a need. Which leads me to believe that they aren't a need even for those who have had those feelings/sensations awakened.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/5/2009 12:37:43 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 3560
Joined: 1/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
The issue is whether it is a physical NEED.
It's like an addiction to caffeine. You are used to it. You want it. You may get headaches if you don't have it. But do you NEED it? Maybe for a while because you're addicted. But I'd venture to guess that if one were to stay away from it and work through the withdrawal symptoms, they would eventually ease.
Does a girl who has never experienced sex/masturbation have the same NEED? No, not generally. Until those feelings/sensations are awakened, they are not a need. Which leads me to believe that they aren't a need even for those who have had those feelings/sensations awakened.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I know women who have not masterbated or 'awaken' any such feelings but still have the desire to be with a man. Sometimes the feeling can be quite painful for them and yet they endure it. Physically a woman in her 30's has this feeling awaken quite vehemently and can't/won't/don't do anything about it. It's very enlightening to talk to such women.
And then there are the women who have had it awakened in them and have to deal with not having that need met when it used to be. We know what it feels like and we know how that need can be met...it's very tough.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/6/2009 12:08:55 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 487
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
The issue is whether it is a physical NEED.
It's like an addiction to caffeine. You are used to it. You want it. You may get headaches if you don't have it. But do you NEED it? Maybe for a while because you're addicted. But I'd venture to guess that if one were to stay away from it and work through the withdrawal symptoms, they would eventually ease.
Does a girl who has never experienced sex/masturbation have the same NEED? No, not generally. Until those feelings/sensations are awakened, they are not a need. Which leads me to believe that they aren't a need even for those who have had those feelings/sensations awakened.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I know women who have not masterbated or 'awaken' any such feelings but still have the desire to be with a man. Sometimes the feeling can be quite painful for them and yet they endure it. Physically a woman in her 30's has this feeling awaken quite vehemently and can't/won't/don't do anything about it. It's very enlightening to talk to such women.
And then there are the women who have had it awakened in them and have to deal with not having that need met when it used to be. We know what it feels like and we know how that need can be met...it's very tough.
The desire to be sexually intimate with someone is God-given...so yea...virgins desire to be with someone just as much as anyone else....but that doesn't make it okay to just sleep with anyone.
Masturbation IS a sexual act....and once one has either experienced it or sexual intercourse, it is more difficult to abstain, but not impossible.
No one said living a sexually PURE life was easy, just not impossible.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/6/2009 2:46:55 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 3560
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
The issue is whether it is a physical NEED.
It's like an addiction to caffeine. You are used to it. You want it. You may get headaches if you don't have it. But do you NEED it? Maybe for a while because you're addicted. But I'd venture to guess that if one were to stay away from it and work through the withdrawal symptoms, they would eventually ease.
Does a girl who has never experienced sex/masturbation have the same NEED? No, not generally. Until those feelings/sensations are awakened, they are not a need. Which leads me to believe that they aren't a need even for those who have had those feelings/sensations awakened.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I know women who have not masterbated or 'awaken' any such feelings but still have the desire to be with a man. Sometimes the feeling can be quite painful for them and yet they endure it. Physically a woman in her 30's has this feeling awaken quite vehemently and can't/won't/don't do anything about it. It's very enlightening to talk to such women.
And then there are the women who have had it awakened in them and have to deal with not having that need met when it used to be. We know what it feels like and we know how that need can be met...it's very tough.
The desire to be sexually intimate with someone is God-given...so yea...virgins desire to be with someone just as much as anyone else....but that doesn't make it okay to just sleep with anyone.
Masturbation IS a sexual act....and once one has either experienced it or sexual intercourse, it is more difficult to abstain, but not impossible.
No one said living a sexually PURE life was easy, just not impossible.
I'm not sure if you're commenting directly towards what I said or merely referenced it so I'm going out on a limb here and forgive me if I'm incorrect.
I never said nor insinuated that it was 'okay to just sleep with anyone'. Just that the desires do happen to people who have no sexual experience as well those who have the experience.
I also never said that it is impossible or easy to abstain...just very tough.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/6/2009 5:32:40 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 487
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
The issue is whether it is a physical NEED.
It's like an addiction to caffeine. You are used to it. You want it. You may get headaches if you don't have it. But do you NEED it? Maybe for a while because you're addicted. But I'd venture to guess that if one were to stay away from it and work through the withdrawal symptoms, they would eventually ease.
Does a girl who has never experienced sex/masturbation have the same NEED? No, not generally. Until those feelings/sensations are awakened, they are not a need. Which leads me to believe that they aren't a need even for those who have had those feelings/sensations awakened.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I know women who have not masterbated or 'awaken' any such feelings but still have the desire to be with a man. Sometimes the feeling can be quite painful for them and yet they endure it. Physically a woman in her 30's has this feeling awaken quite vehemently and can't/won't/don't do anything about it. It's very enlightening to talk to such women.
And then there are the women who have had it awakened in them and have to deal with not having that need met when it used to be. We know what it feels like and we know how that need can be met...it's very tough.
The desire to be sexually intimate with someone is God-given...so yea...virgins desire to be with someone just as much as anyone else....but that doesn't make it okay to just sleep with anyone.
Masturbation IS a sexual act....and once one has either experienced it or sexual intercourse, it is more difficult to abstain, but not impossible.
No one said living a sexually PURE life was easy, just not impossible.
I'm not sure if you're commenting directly towards what I said or merely referenced it so I'm going out on a limb here and forgive me if I'm incorrect.
I never said nor insinuated that it was 'okay to just sleep with anyone'. Just that the desires do happen to people who have no sexual experience as well those who have the experience.
I also never said that it is impossible or easy to abstain...just very tough.
I was referencing what you said simply because it supported the stance that I have taken about masturbation etc.
The comments were not pointed at you, but at those who felt that people did not have to, nor could they, control their impulses.
Sorry if you felt I was saying you said something you did not.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/6/2009 7:34:05 PM
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tinydancer2
Posts: 185
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quote:
and for the record...women can and do have the equivalent of wet dreams.
As I went check the expression in wikipedia:"A nocturnal emission is an ejaculation during sleep. Ejaculation of semen by a male. It is also called a "wet dream", or a spontaneous orgasm."
In my understanding what both genders have in commom is the spontaneous orgasm and it can happen during sleep or awake hours also. "Orgasms can be spontaneous, seeming to occur with no direct stimulation. Occasionally, orgasms can occur during sexual dreams (see Nocturnal emission)."
I went to find out about that clearly because it seems Augustine mentioned those kinds were the ones no fault ones. Spontaneous without no extra help, not from lustuful dreams, I suppose. If person gets bombarded by visual outside stimulation day in and day out and self controling,some people will release during sleep but even during sleep people actions do vary. Than in my understanding for a person to be just sleeping does not means "no fault".Many times vivid dreams are the trigger to a release and etc. Anyways private situation is between a person, their conscience and God but I will not assume as people are sleeping they are "innocent" like Augustine thought. Study research nowdays say people awake can have same spontaneous, "non provoked" reactions.
I guess in Augustine days, people were not bombarded with the explicit stuff of today,images,wear and etc.Plus as I was reading about different churches position about masturbation I found out what people mindset was:
"Data from the sciences have also severely challenged the traditional condemnation of masturbation, which to some extent was based on outmoded views of human reproduction. At one time it was believed the male sperm was the only factor in human reproduction and the sperm was regarded as humans in miniature. Hence spilling it out was tantamount to abortion as well as a waste of a precious element. Other myths also played a role. Masturbation was blamed for a whole host of physical and spiritual ills such as acne, asthma, heart murmurs, lethargy and even insanity. From Thomas Bokenkotter, Essential Catholicism, Doubleday, 1985, p. 334."
 I am sure learning with this thread..wow I had no knowlegde that people in the past had this notion about miniature babies coming from males and kind of just incubating them in female bodies. Humm...it sure opens my mind as understand the upsetting of those past mindset, and about people dealing with what they knew.  As it reminds me of different freedom some may have and others dont because of their own consciences as what to touch,to eat, to dress etc.
The Bible is very clear about sexual sin as fornication, adultery etc, but the act of masturbation itself is not mentioned in Scripture, sure LUST is mentioned by the Lord Himself, very clearly as its adultery also.
_____________________________
1 Peter 1
A Living Hope, and a Sure Salvation.This hope an anchor to the soul. Blessed be the Triuno Lord Almighty.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/6/2009 10:53:32 PM
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Gail7364
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
Masturbation IS a sexual act...
I disagree. If someone asked me if I am having sex or if I am sexually active, I could honestly say NO. If someone asks me if I masturbate, I would say Yes. Do I feel like I am sinning? No. I have not had sex since a long time before my husband left me. He is the last person with whom I had sex. I am abstaining. Therefore, I am not sexually active whatsoever.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/7/2009 3:21:28 PM
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poetessfree
Posts: 286
Joined: 12/1/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gail7364
quote:
Masturbation IS a sexual act...
I disagree. If someone asked me if I am having sex or if I am sexually active, I could honestly say NO. If someone asks me if I masturbate, I would say Yes. Do I feel like I am sinning? No. I have not had sex since a long time before my husband left me. He is the last person with whom I had sex. I am abstaining. Therefore, I am not sexually active whatsoever.
Thanks for responding Gail.
I am like tinydancer, I am learning a lot. This is great!
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/7/2009 10:13:26 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 526
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
I went to find out about that clearly because it seems Augustine mentioned those kinds were the ones no fault ones. Spontaneous without no extra help, not from lustuful dreams, I suppose. If person gets bombarded by visual outside stimulation day in and day out and self controling,some people will release during sleep but even during sleep people actions do vary. Than in my understanding for a person to be just sleeping does not means "no fault".Many times vivid dreams are the trigger to a release and etc. Anyways private situation is between a person, their conscience and God but I will not assume as people are sleeping they are "innocent" like Augustine thought. Study research nowdays say people awake can have same spontaneous, "non provoked" reactions.
I had spontaneous orgasm dreams when I was single, and I still occasionally have them as a married(and very satisfied) woman. I'm not a very visually stimulated person as far as sex goes, so I don't know that you could use that argument as to why I had them when I was single and celibate. Perhaps because I was engaged and my body knew(and desired) what was coming? At that point I hadn't even kissed my Fiance(we didn't kiss until our wedding day)... Oddly enough, I don't really remember any of those dreams, only waking up as they finished.
I had them frequently when I was pregnant, which I attributed to crazy pregnancy hormones.
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Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/8/2009 2:15:33 PM
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tinydancer2
Posts: 185
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
I had spontaneous orgasm dreams when I was single, and I still occasionally have them as a married(and very satisfied) woman. I'm not a very visually stimulated person as far as sex goes, so I don't know that you could use that argument as to why I had them when I was single and celibate. Perhaps because I was engaged and my body knew(and desired) what was coming? At that point I hadn't even kissed my Fiance(we didn't kiss until our wedding day)... Oddly enough, I don't really remember any of those dreams, only waking up as they finished.
I had them frequently when I was pregnant, which I attributed to crazy pregnancy hormones.
Thank you very much Mrs.Wifey. I have been learning, Augustine position about that "while sleeping =innocent" was the leading thought at 1st and than as I read the wikipedia about spontaneous orgasms as the different ways different people express their personal make up.
I cannot put people in a box at all, as I naturaly driven to find out layers and where people come from etc. As the Lord made people different and differences comes in all layers of them. There are very sensitive persons and there are others not so, degrees in different people,of course.There are people who ride bicycles and may have orgasm and others who do not. There are people born very aware of their bodies and sexual responses and others who are not and may take time to awake it and some will never feel much or not at all. There are extremes cases situations, that can be problematic and emotional painful to people who live real lives dealing with what they have to. People have different fingerprints, people do have real biological differences in their responses to pleasure.
In my understanding, masturbation is a grey area in Scripture, not like adultery and fornication for exemple as people cannot come up with "excuses" for it, go around it and scape of what The Lord tells us clearly about sexual sins.
quote:
I am like tinydancer, I am learning a lot. This is great!
Its great indeed, to learn, poetssfree. I am very courious person and go pressing to understand.
What is in my head now..: 
-Biblicaly sex is only the context of marriage, still sexual pleasure is not what makes sex, right? At least for some maaried ladies do not come automaticaly. In marriage the sex act itself has deep meaning spiritualy also, as 2 becoming one are allowed to express sex in marriage bed. If married people have or not pleasure, it "does not matter" it will not affect their convenant before God. There are married people who have no sexualpleasure or sexual life who is married anyways.
-Masturbation leads to pleasure 100%, I suppose because if not, people did not keep doing it so much,over centuries? Married and unmarried people are doing it in many different ways (including sinning,lusting after others or not), for ages. In my understanding, there is something "strange" at least, if married people are doing it hidding, without knowlegede of their spouses, because -IF- pleasure belongs to marriage bed alone, all married people must express pleasure only when in presence and "ok" from their spouses.
-People who are not married and under convenant who did not became 1 with another,when engaging in sex(intercouse, oral sex, mutual masturbation etc all with another person present ) are all fornicators according to Scriptures, still IF they do the very same actions with married people and even lust after married people, they are all adulteres, their sentencing would be greater (OT adultery=death sentence and fornicators= suppose to marry or pay fines). The Lord Jesus came with grace to forgive all and would not stone as the law required. Still He says:
""But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)"
In my understanding what the Lord is saying is that is a premeditate look to lust, a prey look, is a heart issue and mindset. And because nowdays we all are bombarded by images and sex appeals and etc comming from all over the place we must be very wise and careful because there is indeed different weight if someone is looking and lusting to married or unmarried persons. When you just look and allow to look more and become lust you can become an adulter in your heart by lusting after married people!
All those things come to my mind and I ponder in all layers because to look is a verb and action, visual people are all over and we keep files on our mind to acess later on. Our minds are very potent as keeping memory files from long ago and etc they stick on us. In my understanding pornography is a huge attack of pure lust that we must battle. Nowdays we do not need look for it because it come to us as pop up all over the place.
People are all different, still only God to help, those bombarded with images being filed up in their mind. Even among visual driven people not all come into a box. I myself know the power a single image have in a very young brain, I saw a single inappropriated playgirl image of adult nude male when I was 14 years old, and took decades to clean it up from my files, as it became the "perfect male" exemple to me, to a person with perfectionist tendecies, great messes can arise with "perfection ideals" .I can say, today, that strongholg favorite single image, does not pop up on my brain anymore. And I did not use that image to engage in masturbation, as I did not "discover masturbation" as growing discovering process but discovered later as adult, intercourse fornication, in my personal case sexual sin was my stronghold. I use that image to chose fornication parteners through my adult life, until meet the Lord.
In my oppinion people do know and can not hide from themselves, the weight of a stronghold and being a slave there is no peace. It is all inside noway we can run from this situation. Others cannot transfer their mindset of guilt to a non guilt conscience, only if the issue is not really settled in ones mind, heart and soul. There is not a best way to deal with any issue than before the Lord Himself, asking Him to exam us deeply and keep doing it. As we are not God, we point people to Him.
For now that is what is in my mind...I am trully learning.
Have you all a great weekend.
Happy Mother's Day to all who are mothers!
_____________________________
1 Peter 1
A Living Hope, and a Sure Salvation.This hope an anchor to the soul. Blessed be the Triuno Lord Almighty.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/8/2009 9:22:32 PM
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Gail7364
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
Are you sexually satisfying yourself? Then it's a sexual act.
No, it's not a sexual act. It's a natural bodily function. I would have to actually do a sexual act with a man (or woman if I was that way) to have sex. This is no more than scratching an itch, feeding myself when I'm hungry, sleeping when I'm sleepy, taking a bath when I'm dirty, using the bathroom when I need to, and so on.
I am sorry that people feel so guilty about a natural feeling of their body. Guilt about anything can cause a person to have problems with it. If a person does have a problem masturbating, then they shouldn't do it.
My mother, for instance, is quite old and still has never looked at herself "down there" because her mother told her it was sinful and shameful. But it isn't. And even though my a parents have been married for more than 60 years, have two children and lost two, love each other more than life itself, and are very close, mother still undresses in the dark and Daddy has never seen her naked. All because she was taught it was a sin and shameful. That is really sad. I am glad that I overcame that type of teaching.
I do believe that if masturbation was a sin, God would have made sure to put it in the Bible.
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RE: Masturbation-women - 5/9/2009 8:41:41 AM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 487
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gail7364
quote:
Are you sexually satisfying yourself? Then it's a sexual act.
No, it's not a sexual act. It's a natural bodily function. I would have to actually do a sexual act with a man (or woman if I was that way) to have sex. This is no more than scratching an itch, feeding myself when I'm hungry, sleeping when I'm sleepy, taking a bath when I'm dirty, using the bathroom when I need to, and so on.
Interesting you would put it that way...a lot of people feel that way about actually having sex as well. That it is merely a natural bodily function that must be satisfied at will...and that it is just like scratching an itch.
According to health researchers, and they are SECULAR and not coming at this from a Biblical or spiritual standpoint...it is a sexual act.
"Masturbation is the deliberate stimulation of one's own genitals to achieve sexual arousal and pleasure. It is done at least occasionally by a majority of both men and women.
It is the first overt sexual act for the majority of men and women, although more women than men engage in sexual intercourse before they ever masturbate.
One word of caution: in keeping with the practices of safer sex, masturbation with a partner can be an enjoyable alternative to intercourse, as long as you avoid contact with your partner's semen or vaginal fluids, especially if you have any cuts or open sores. "--Sinclair Intimacy Institute
quote:
I am sorry that people feel so guilty about a natural feeling of their body. Guilt about anything can cause a person to have problems with it. If a person does have a problem masturbating, then they shouldn't do it.
My mother, for instance, is quite old and still has never looked at herself "down there" because her mother told her it was sinful and shameful. But it isn't. And even though my a parents have been married for more than 60 years, have two children and lost two, love each other more than life itself, and are very close, mother still undresses in the dark and Daddy has never seen her naked. All because she was taught it was a sin and shameful. That is really sad. I am glad that I overcame that type of teaching. Personally....what your parents have looked at (their own bodies) is their own business. I don't have to look down there to KNOW it is there....I agree that a lot of 'bad info' was taught about our bodies before (and still is), but in the course of a long and happy life, whether or not a woman has seen her own genitals is pretty unimportant.
As to your Daddy never seeing her naked....unless he has kept his eyes closed or is incredibly night blind....he has seen her naked in the moonlight. And personally....that is between your two parents and has nothing to do with this. The marriage bed is holy, and what takes place there, and how it takes place there, is between the two loving and non-abusive participants (I include the caveat 'non-abusive' so that anyone being forced, within marriage, to things they do NOT want to do realize that they can get help).
quote:
I do believe that if masturbation was a sin, God would have made sure to put it in the Bible.
Abortion is not listed in the Bible, yet it is sin..... Drug abuse is not listed in the Bible but it is sin...so to use that last sentence to defend something as not sin is not valid.
"Does the Bible talk about masturbation? Is there clear scripture that tells us if masturbation is right or wrong? While Christians debate the topic of masturbation, there is no scripture that directly mentions the act. Yet some Christians do refer to specific scripture that describes healthy and unhealthy sexual behavior in order to determine whether or not masturbation is a sin.
One of the major sexual issues discussed throughout scripture is lust. Jesus condemned lust in the heart as adultery in Matthew. While most advertising, television shows, movies, magazines, and more promote lust, the New Testament describes it as a sin. Many Christians see masturbation as a form of lust, if your lust is causing you to masturbate.
Matthew 5:28 – “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (NIV)......
Another argument against masturbation is that it is a self-centered activity rather than a God-centered activity. For some Christians, there is a belief that an orgasm actually brings a person closer to God. However, a majority of Christians believe that “pleasuring oneself” is about the self rather than God. Most Christians see their faith as having a God-focus, and that every act should be a way of edifying God. Thus, if masturbation is not helping to develop a relationship with God, it is a sin.
Psalm 119:35-37 – “Direct me in the path of your commands, for there I find delight. Turn my heart toward your statues and not toward selfish gain. Turn my eyes away from worthless things; preserve my life according to your word.” (NIV)
Remember, you need to master your behavior, or else sin will master it for you. Even a good thing can become sinful without the right heart. Even if you don’t believe that masturbation is a sin, if it is controlling you then it is a sin.
1 Corinthians 6:12 – “Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial. ‘Everything is permissible for me’ – but I will not be mastered by anything.” (NIV)
Even though these scriptures are used as an argument against masturbation, they do not necessarily make masturbation as a sin very clear. Yet, it is important that a person look at the reasons for masturbation to see if the desire behind the act is actually a sin. Some Christians believe that, because masturbation does not hurt others, it is not a sin. However, other Christians ask a person to look deeper within to see if masturbation is building a relationship with God or taking away from it. "--Kelli Mahoney The Guide for Christian Teens
< Message edited by W.O.F. -- 5/9/2009 11:56:11 AM >
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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