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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 12:58:04 PM
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Crushmaster
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
quote:
Original: TheoCentric
So, we ignore Paul's instructions to Timothy regarding Elder and Deacon positions in the church, because Jesus didn't teach on them?
Do we ignore evidence that can aid in the interpretation of that piece of scripture?
Again, Jesus, our King of Kings, did not teach on male and female roles. Nor on female submission.
However, He did:
• give honor and respect to women
• teach that women were equal to men in the site of God
• teach that women could receive God’s forgiveness and grace
• teach that women, as well as men, could be among Christ’s personal followers
• teach that female gender could be full participants in the kingdom of God
• present women as positive role models of faith (in many of His illustrations), which men should follow
Revolutionary ideas! Shocking, even for some of His disciples.
quote:
There is no indication that she was in the office of a Deacon or Deaconess.........
On the contrary, there is evidence which strongly suggests that she did hold the office of deaconess. Re-read Post 6074.
It's important to consider the evidence when interpreting scripture.
1. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 11:1-16, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 1 Timothy 2, etc., etc., are Scripture.
2. Jesus is God.
Conclusion: Jesus did teach on sex roles, as He is God, and all Scripture, the ones we like and the ones we don't like, were given by His inspiration.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 1:11:23 PM
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gmcspice
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You and others just refuse to acknowledge that God did give a woman that kind of authority. Why, I am just not sure. But truth is truth brother no matter which way you slice it. And God is the same today as he was yesterday.
How would you reconcile what Paul stated about women with Deborah being in authority like she was, then?
That she was an exception to the rule?
You should know better than that. With God, everything is black and white as far as that goes. If God did it, that is it. And can certainly do it again and when he wants.
God opens doors that no man can open and shuts doors that no man can open or shut.
What would you say to Paul when he presented Phoebe, the way he did?
The Church is suppose to help and serve her as if she were Paul himself BUT she doesn't have any authority? Come on, brother. Why would Paul say this about Phoebe, if she didn't have some kind of authority given by him and God?
quote:
Again, Jesus, our King of Kings, did not teach on male and female roles. Nor on female submission.
However, He did:
• give honor and respect to women
• teach that women were equal to men in the site of God
• teach that women could receive God’s forgiveness and grace
• teach that women, as well as men, could be among Christ’s personal followers
• teach that female gender could be full participants in the kingdom of God
• present women as positive role models of faith (in many of His illustrations), which men should follow
Revolutionary ideas! Shocking, even for some of His disciples.
quote:
There is no indication that she was in the office of a Deacon or Deaconess.........
On the contrary, there is evidence which strongly suggests that she did hold the office of deaconess. Re-read Post 6074.
quote:
It's important to consider the evidence when interpreting scripture.
1. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 11:1-16, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 1 Timothy 2, etc., etc., are Scripture.
2. Jesus is God.
Conclusion: Jesus did teach on sex roles, as He is God, and all Scripture, the ones we like and the ones we don't like, were given by His inspiration.
On the contrary Brother, Jesus did not teach on the roles of Sex.
And we are not disagreeing with scripture. Just your interpretation of it.
Are you saying that Jesus didn't do these things nor that women can be saved through Jesus?-
quote:
• give honor and respect to women
• teach that women were equal to men in the site of God
• teach that women could receive God’s forgiveness and grace
• teach that women, as well as men, could be among Christ’s personal followers
• teach that female gender could be full participants in the kingdom of God
• present women as positive role models of faith (in many of His illustrations), which men should follow
You do realize if you disagree, you are disagreeing with what God did?
And Speaking of Jesus and yes he is God, If it were offensive to him, why did he appoint Deborah? You have never answered that.
And how do you reconcile what God did with what Paul said?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 1:39:58 PM
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TheosCentric
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Why is it the biggest proponents of women being head leaders in the church are women? 
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 3:09:39 PM
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WesP
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Out of the women in the OT (Deborah, etc.), how many of them were in the priesthood? Out of the women in the NT (Mary, Mary, Mary, etc.), how many of them were apostles or church leaders?
quote:
Jesus, while He was on earth, did not teach on sex roles or female submission which is evidence one needs to consider when interpreting scripture
It would be notable to look at the examples of each role that was portrayed in the bible, as well. The evidence displayed shows only men in church leadership. Women did have leadership roles in other places.
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Wes
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 3:28:57 PM
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gmcspice
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Mary Magdalene was more than just a follower of Jesus. Though you men try to say otherwise.
Not to mention, Doesn't Jesus tell the first 12 to go and make disciples of ALL? but you would like NOT to include women.
Doesn't the Bible say that all in Christ are Priest now? Yes it does, but you would like to NOT include women.
As I recall Miriam (Aaron and Moses sister) had quite a bit of Power from God and authority from God.
It is really sad that you misinterpret scripture to say God does not allow women authority over men when he did. Period. But you who say otherwise and misconstrue what Paul says and just flat out deny what Christ said and did for women.
And sue, yes a woman can be an elder. Paul said so. Just her duties are different.
quote:
The evidence displayed shows only men in church leadership
Not true at all. You just want to disregard the women Paul says he does.
By the way, church is not a building it is the people.
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gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 3:34:16 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Mary Magdalene was more than just a follower of Jesus. Though you men try to say otherwise.
Not to mention, Doesn't Jesus tell the first 12 to go and make disciples of ALL? but you would like NOT to include women.
Doesn't the Bible say that all in Christ are Priest now? Yes it does, but you would like to NOT include women.
As I recall Miriam (Aaron and Moses sister) had quite a bit of Power from God and authority from God.
It is really sad that you misinterpret scripture to say God does not allow women authority over men when he did. Period. But you who say otherwise and misconstrue what Paul says and just flat out deny what Christ said and did for women.
And sue, yes a woman can be an elder. Paul said so. Just her duties are different.
quote:
The evidence displayed shows only men in church leadership
Not true at all. You just want to disregard the women Paul says he does.
By the way, church is not a building it is the people.
At no point did I say that a woman could have no role in church. I said she could not lead a church. You can say I misinterpret all you like. It is counterproductive. Just say that to everyone who disagrees with you on any topic and notice how well things progress. Show me one place where a woman had authority over the men in church. If you can show me where a woman led the church, I will check it out. I have no problem losing because then I learn. Thanks.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 3:56:40 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 3320
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Mary Magdalene was more than just a follower of Jesus. Though you men try to say otherwise.
Not to mention, Doesn't Jesus tell the first 12 to go and make disciples of ALL? but you would like NOT to include women.
Doesn't the Bible say that all in Christ are Priest now? Yes it does, but you would like to NOT include women.
As I recall Miriam (Aaron and Moses sister) had quite a bit of Power from God and authority from God.
It is really sad that you misinterpret scripture to say God does not allow women authority over men when he did. Period. But you who say otherwise and misconstrue what Paul says and just flat out deny what Christ said and did for women.
And sue, yes a woman can be an elder. Paul said so. Just her duties are different.
quote:
The evidence displayed shows only men in church leadership
Not true at all. You just want to disregard the women Paul says he does.
By the way, church is not a building it is the people.
You have got to quit accusing those who disagree with you of saying that women can have no leadership roles whatsoever. Women can teach women, they can lead women, they can evangelize, they can go on mission trips, etc. They cannot be in the office of Elder or Deacon as prescribed by Paul in 1 Timothy. These are roles reserved for men based on the qualifications that Paul listed. Stop the accusations and examine scripture.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 5:04:48 PM
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the_mom
Posts: 16
Joined: 11/9/2006
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Mary Magdalene was more than just a follower of Jesus. Though you men try to say otherwise.
Not to mention, Doesn't Jesus tell the first 12 to go and make disciples of ALL? but you would like NOT to include women.
Doesn't the Bible say that all in Christ are Priest now? Yes it does, but you would like to NOT include women.
As I recall Miriam (Aaron and Moses sister) had quite a bit of Power from God and authority from God.
It is really sad that you misinterpret scripture to say God does not allow women authority over men when he did. Period. But you who say otherwise and misconstrue what Paul says and just flat out deny what Christ said and did for women.
And sue, yes a woman can be an elder. Paul said so. Just her duties are different.
quote:
The evidence displayed shows only men in church leadership
Not true at all. You just want to disregard the women Paul says he does.
By the way, church is not a building it is the people.
You have got to quit accusing those who disagree with you of saying that women can have no leadership roles whatsoever. Women can teach women, they can lead women, they can evangelize, they can go on mission trips, etc. They cannot be in the office of Elder or Deacon as prescribed by Paul in 1 Timothy. These are roles reserved for men based on the qualifications that Paul listed. Stop the accusations and examine scripture.
Don't forget that women can also do the cooking and the cleaning. Set up coffee hour. Change diapers in the nursery. Those are the jobs that men give women, but what were the jobs that Jesus gave women?
Be the first to see the risen Christ and the first to preach the good news. Maybe it's sour grapes. The best jobs are already taken.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 5:34:46 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
Posts: 34
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Out of the women in the OT (Deborah, etc.), how many of them were in the priesthood? Out of the women in the NT (Mary, Mary, Mary, etc.), how many of them were apostles or church leaders?
First, Jesus didn’t directly talk about eldership.
Second, A male apostolate does not prove that women should not serve as leaders.
Third, we shouldn’t assume the selection of 12 male Jewish apostles established a pattern for future church leaders. It didn’t according to scripture. After Christ crucified, the pattern in its number and ethnicity changed. Therefore, isn’t it a plausibility (one we should be open to) that it didn’t establish a pattern in gender?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 10:06:32 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 3320
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: the_mom
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Mary Magdalene was more than just a follower of Jesus. Though you men try to say otherwise.
Not to mention, Doesn't Jesus tell the first 12 to go and make disciples of ALL? but you would like NOT to include women.
Doesn't the Bible say that all in Christ are Priest now? Yes it does, but you would like to NOT include women.
As I recall Miriam (Aaron and Moses sister) had quite a bit of Power from God and authority from God.
It is really sad that you misinterpret scripture to say God does not allow women authority over men when he did. Period. But you who say otherwise and misconstrue what Paul says and just flat out deny what Christ said and did for women.
And sue, yes a woman can be an elder. Paul said so. Just her duties are different.
quote:
The evidence displayed shows only men in church leadership
Not true at all. You just want to disregard the women Paul says he does.
By the way, church is not a building it is the people.
You have got to quit accusing those who disagree with you of saying that women can have no leadership roles whatsoever. Women can teach women, they can lead women, they can evangelize, they can go on mission trips, etc. They cannot be in the office of Elder or Deacon as prescribed by Paul in 1 Timothy. These are roles reserved for men based on the qualifications that Paul listed. Stop the accusations and examine scripture.
Don't forget that women can also do the cooking and the cleaning. Set up coffee hour. Change diapers in the nursery. Those are the jobs that men give women, but what were the jobs that Jesus gave women?
Be the first to see the risen Christ and the first to preach the good news. Maybe it's sour grapes. The best jobs are already taken.
Actually, we have a number of men who do some of that stuff in our nursery, including the senior pastor changing diapers. What does that say about presuppositions?
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 10:07:35 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 3320
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Out of the women in the OT (Deborah, etc.), how many of them were in the priesthood? Out of the women in the NT (Mary, Mary, Mary, etc.), how many of them were apostles or church leaders?
First, Jesus didn’t directly talk about eldership.
Second, A male apostolate does not prove that women should not serve as leaders.
Third, we shouldn’t assume the selection of 12 male Jewish apostles established a pattern for future church leaders. It didn’t according to scripture. After Christ crucified, the pattern in its number and ethnicity changed. Therefore, isn’t it a plausibility (one we should be open to) that it didn’t establish a pattern in gender?
Omission proves plausibility? 
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 8:07:12 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
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Excuse me but Paul does say women can be elders. They are to minister to the women. And the male elders minister to the men. Period end of discussion on that.
And I am not upset or accusing anyone just because they disagree with me.
I could care less about any one's opinion except God's. His is the one that matters. Besides, you that think women should not have these positions are the ones mad at me constantly berating me saying I am wrong or that is a straw man argument.
Jesus clearly did not set up the church the way You think he did.
I don't have a problem with men in leadership either. It is the fact that everyone keeps saying that God does not allow this and God does not allow that. ARE YOU GOD?
Look at scripture and evidence. MANY women held leadership over men. It is about what GOD sees fit, not what man sees fit. You should really get off your high horses and ask God. Trust me he will reveal it to you.
Your argument is and has always been God won't appoint a woman, and he won't go against scripture. Well, that is the straw man argument because God has given women leadership and it is shown in scripture. Either you refuse to see it or make up an excuse for why God would do it and say he won't do it again. That is just sad that your pride won't let you accept what could be gifts from God just because it might come from a woman.
But hey, who am I to judge? God will on his time you bet on that.
I think we all need to humble ourselves and let God work like he tells us to.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 8:21:04 AM
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WesP
Posts: 773
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
Excuse me but Paul does say women can be elders. They are to minister to the women.
Perhaps, we differ on the role of an elder. I do not disagree that women can minister to women. I disagree that they can lead the men in the church. As far as you saying that men are restricted to leading the men, can you tell me where you find that in the bible? Thank you.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 9:24:39 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
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quote:
WesP Date 8/12/2009 8:21:04 AM
quote:
quote:
Excuse me but Paul does say women can be elders. They are to minister to the women .
Perhaps, we differ on the role of an elder. I do not disagree that women can minister to women. I disagree that they can lead the men in the church. As far as you saying that men are restricted to leading the men, can you tell me where you find that in the bible? Thank you.
I didn't say men could not minster to women. I feel that in today's times, it is better not to give the appearance of evil. Doesn't the Bible say this? Yes, it does. If a man ministers to a woman, he should take another woman as witness. This is to prevent rumors and to give safety to of each one' good name.
But even better is to have a woman minister to a woman. And all that other is not needed.
I 100% believe in women ministry FOR women. We should have women in the positions for this very reasons I stated.
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To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 10:04:27 AM
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WesP
Posts: 773
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
WesP Date 8/12/2009 8:21:04 AM
quote:
quote:
Excuse me but Paul does say women can be elders. They are to minister to the women .
Perhaps, we differ on the role of an elder. I do not disagree that women can minister to women. I disagree that they can lead the men in the church. As far as you saying that men are restricted to leading the men, can you tell me where you find that in the bible? Thank you.
I didn't say men could not minster to women. I feel that in today's times, it is better not to give the appearance of evil. Doesn't the Bible say this? Yes, it does. If a man ministers to a woman, he should take another woman as witness. This is to prevent rumors and to give safety to of each one' good name.
But even better is to have a woman minister to a woman. And all that other is not needed.
I 100% believe in women ministry FOR women. We should have women in the positions for this very reasons I stated.
I do not disagree with what you are stating if you are referring to ministry specific to males and females.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 10:45:27 AM
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GodsGiddyGirl
Posts: 34
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The issue of men’s and women’s roles in the church is a controversial one. Before my hike, I would like to present additional evidence we should consider as we evaluate and/or re-evaluate the stand we take on the matter.
The following evidence is found in Genesis 1.
• Men and women are made in the image of God.
• God gave the mandate to both (male and female) to be fruitful/multiple and to rule/subdue
This evidence strongly suggests male dominance as part of the consequence of sin was not God’s original intent.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 11:02:59 AM
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WesP
Posts: 773
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
The issue of men’s and women’s roles in the church is a controversial one. Before my hike, I would like to present additional evidence we should consider as we evaluate and/or re-evaluate the stand we take on the matter.
The following evidence is found in Genesis 1.
• Men and women are made in the image of God.
• God gave the mandate to both (male and female) to be fruitful/multiple and to rule/subdue
This evidence strongly suggests male dominance as part of the consequence of sin was not God’s original intent.
How does dominance relate to the two things you posted? It is not mentioned or hinted at at all. Besides, dominance is the incorrect way to run a church anyway.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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