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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2009 8:31:16 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
I see, ma'am.
Then I suppose wives should not submit to their husbands, and their in fact should be no difference between the sexes whatsoever, as to God we're "the same".
Ma'am, I submit to you that is false. Man plays the role of Christ; woman, the role of the Church.
No, you don't see.
Paul was teaching the church to be submissive to Christ As a woman is to be to her husband. By the way, the husband according to Paul is also to submit to his wife too. The 2 are to becomes 1 flesh But that is another topic.
The woman does not play the role of the Church. Paul was making a comparison so that he can teach all believers men and women that when in Christ, it is not about man or woman. It is about Christ and that above all we are to follow him.
You aso must realize that the flesh prifits nothing. No flesh is to glory where God is concerned. God is a Spirit and he must be worshiped in Spirit and truth.
The only way God even recognizes us as his is because Christ is in us. He recognizes HIS SON in us, PERIOD. He does not say oh this is a woman with Christ in her. or oh this is a man with Christ in him.
When we all get to be with God, there will be no giving in marriage. We will all be equal in God's sight.
You must learn to trecignize that a woman serving God in the way GOD chooses, is not her taking a man's authority away or sitting in authority over him. Christ is always the head we are HIS servants.
And why would you agree with what I said about Deborah and Lippidoth when it gose against everything you are stating about women?
quote:
I just deny that a woman should hold authority over a man in the Church
That is what your problem is brother. You think man has any authority at all in the Church. But see, you as a man in the church you are a bride yourself. You are to play the part of a woman in a sense to Christ. You are to be humble and take the low set just like the rest of us. When you realize that all authority given is given by God and not man then you will realize woman is not even in authority over you no matter what position she holds in the body of Christ. All are equal parts.
And by denying a woman having that gift from God is denying half of Christ's body. You, sir deny Deborah had any authority when it was clearly given by God. The same authority you believe Paul takes away from women.
Also, by saying a Christian woman CAN'T teach her NON-Christian husband about God and his word is saying she is denied doing the charge that is given to every Christian. TO SPREAD GOD WORD- THE GOSPEL. You really take Paul's command over Christ the son of God? that is so shameful. I would not ever put Paul above Christ. Like I have said to you before, you taking Paul's scripture out of context causes you to deny the charge from Christ to ALL CHRISTIAN. Do you not see this?
And how exactly is a woman suppose to lead a man to Christ if she is not speaking God's word?
HELLO! Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. She must speak God's word and live God's word to lead him to Christ.
And I don't even have to say anything about Phoebe. Myka already explained and you probably won't listen.
Like I said, your pride won't allow you to see the real truth about what Paul was stating. He was certainly addressing a problem with apostasy and giving Timothy advice on how to handle it. I don't believe it applies across the board because it would go against what Christ himself said and what Paul himself said about certain women like Phoebe and other women who labored along side Paul to establish the church.
< Message edited by gmcspice -- 8/9/2009 8:45:18 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 1:00:08 AM
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GodsGiddyGirl
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Thinking about Jesus. He didn’t teach on male and female roles. Nor did He give clearly expressed instructions for women to submit to men. Right?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 7:10:41 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
GodsGiddyGirl Date 8/10/2009 1:00:08 AM
Thinking about Jesus. He didn’t teach on male and female roles. Nor did He give clearly expressed instructions for women to submit to men. Right?
That is the absolute truth. I have to agree on this one.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 11:44:10 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
GodsGiddyGirl Date 8/10/2009 1:00:08 AM
Thinking about Jesus. He didn’t teach on male and female roles. Nor did He give clearly expressed instructions for women to submit to men. Right?
That is the absolute truth. I have to agree on this one.
So, we ignore Paul's instructions to Timothy regarding Elder and Deacon positions in the church, because Jesus didn't teach on them?
Btw, on the issue of Phoebe, it cannot be said that Paul was referring to the office of deacon as he was to Timothy, but that he was referring to the act of serving others, as Phoebe apparently was. There is no indication that she was in the office of a Deacon or Deaconess.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 1:01:02 PM
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myka
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quote:
Btw, on the issue of Phoebe, it cannot be said that Paul was referring to the office of deacon as he was to Timothy, but that he was referring to the act of serving others, as Phoebe apparently was. There is no indication that she was in the office of a Deacon or Deaconess.
Why?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 1:17:09 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
Btw, on the issue of Phoebe, it cannot be said that Paul was referring to the office of deacon as he was to Timothy, but that he was referring to the act of serving others, as Phoebe apparently was. There is no indication that she was in the office of a Deacon or Deaconess.
Why?
Because of what the text says. Pretty apparent to me. Not so apparent to those that want to interpret scripture in light of today's culture, apparently.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 1:24:35 PM
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myka
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What specifically does the text say that leads you to think that Phoebe was not serving in the Office of Deacon in the church of Cenchrea?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 1:28:39 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
What specifically does the text say that leads you to think that Phoebe was not serving in the Office of Deacon in the church of Cenchrea?
What makes you think she was?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 1:37:58 PM
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myka
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It seems more like a title rather than a general description of a person's ministry. Can you provide anything specifically in the text that would lead one to understand the description differently?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 2:51:14 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
It seems more like a title rather than a general description of a person's ministry. Can you provide anything specifically in the text that would lead one to understand the description differently?
Well, seeing as how diakonos can mean either "servant" or a title of office, it is unclear from this passage as to whether she actually had the office of "Deacon" or "Deaconess". Due to the instructions given to Timothy in the requirements for the offices of Elder and Deacon, one can interpret the passage in Romans 16 to mean simply a servant of the Church. She is well-known as she has served many, but that does not indicate that she held the office of Deacon.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 5:13:33 PM
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myka
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So, your understanding of Rom. 16 is based on your interpretation of Timothy. The problem is that the Timothy passage regarding Deacons can reasonably be interpreted to include women Deacons.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 9:03:32 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
The problem is that the Timothy passage regarding Deacons can reasonably be interpreted to include women Deacons.
Women can be the husband of one wife? That's news to me.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2009 11:15:26 PM
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myka
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1 Tim 3:11 -- 'wives' can also be translated 'women' -- especially when it does not have a modifier such as 'his' or 'their'.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 5:27:50 AM
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TheosCentric
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That may be so, but in context of the whole passage, it is best translated as referring to the deacons' wives, not deaconesses.
Esp. since it would not make sense for Paul to interject a quick case for deaconesses and then jump back to deacons being the husband of one wife.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 8:14:22 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
Because of what the text says. Pretty apparent to me. Not so apparent to those that want to interpret scripture in light of today's culture, apparently.
So, Theos, you are saying that the following verse says that Phoebe wasn't a deaconess in the way Paul says of men?
Here is both passages-
1I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Paul calls for the saints to assist her and welcome her. This tells me Paul gave her authority and sent her there for a reason.
Now, my question is This, what is the biblical DUTIES of a deacon/deaconess?
It seems from This passage she may be performing those duties.
By the way, a woman can be an elder, just not in the same way as a man.
A woman that is an elder is mature in the Holy Spirit, and guide and directs the younger women in the ways of the Holy Spirit. This was said by Paul. SO, please stop saying that a woman can't be an elder. She can it is just her chrage is different from a male elder.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 8:47:17 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
Because of what the text says. Pretty apparent to me. Not so apparent to those that want to interpret scripture in light of today's culture, apparently.
So, Theos, you are saying that the following verse says that Phoebe wasn't a deaconess in the way Paul says of men?
Here is both passages-
1I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Paul calls for the saints to assist her and welcome her. This tells me Paul gave her authority and sent her there for a reason.
Now, my question is This, what is the biblical DUTIES of a deacon/deaconess?
It seems from This passage she may be performing those duties.
By the way, a woman can be an elder, just not in the same way as a man.
A woman that is an elder is mature in the Holy Spirit, and guide and directs the younger women in the ways of the Holy Spirit. This was said by Paul. SO, please stop saying that a woman can't be an elder. She can it is just her chrage is different from a male elder.
We're talking about the offices of Elder and Deacon as prescribed by Paul in 1 Timothy and in Titus, not about older women mentoring younger women.
A woman cannot be an elder in the sense of holding the office of Elder in a local church.
As for Phoebe, it cannot be determined from the passage that she held an official office in the church, only that she performed great acts of service in the church. She should not be held up as an example of the office of Deacon.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 8:58:45 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
As for Phoebe, it cannot be determined from the passage that She held an official office in the church, only that She performed great acts of service in the church. She should not be held up as an example of the office of Deacon.
I would say this is just your opinion.
You still didn't answer my question.
What are the duties charged to a deacon/deaconess?
quote:
A woman cannot be an elder in the sense of holding the office of Elder in a local church
The same with this position or office. What are the duties of and Elder?
By the way, I am not talking about the qualifications. I am talking about what duties they perform.
And an Elder woman is NOT an old woman per say. She is a woman that is mature in the Holy Spirit. So, YES, She is an Elder. Her duties are not as much as a man's, but She is still an Elder.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 10:51:45 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
As for Phoebe, it cannot be determined from the passage that She held an official office in the church, only that She performed great acts of service in the church. She should not be held up as an example of the office of Deacon.
I would say this is just your opinion.
You still didn't answer my question.
What are the duties charged to a deacon/deaconess?
quote:
A woman cannot be an elder in the sense of holding the office of Elder in a local church
The same with this position or office. What are the duties of and Elder?
By the way, I am not talking about the qualifications. I am talking about what duties they perform.
And an Elder woman is NOT an old woman per say. She is a woman that is mature in the Holy Spirit. So, YES, She is an Elder. Her duties are not as much as a man's, but She is still an Elder.
We're not talking about duties. We're talking about offices. Perhaps your definitions are different, but Paul's weren't.
Btw, if one doesn't meet the qualifications, then how can they perform the duties of the office? 
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 10:57:30 AM
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Nate79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
A woman teaching a man, according to the Scriptures, is wrong. I don't deny a woman can lead a man to Christ.
Which reference please? A man does himself a great disservice if he refuses to receive teaching from a Godly woman. The Holy Spirit works in the heart of a lady just as He does in the heart of a man.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 11:26:17 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
We're not talking about duties. We're talking about offices. Perhaps your definitions are different, but Paul's weren't.
Btw, if one doesn't meet the qualifications, then how can they perform the duties of the office?
Aren't we discussing whether Phoebe was a deaconess or not?
If so, then the duties are relevant to this discussion.
Tell me something, is the Church a building or is the Church the people?
My Bible says it's the people. And since that is truth, we are all charged with spreading the gospel. If a woman has an excellent testimony but not allowed to speak in worship, how can she reach anyone that just might be going through what she went through without the testimony that Gos brought her through?
I still believe from what I am reading that Paul wasn't addressing all women per say. I believe he was addressing a specific Body that Timothy was set over. He was giving Timothy advice on how to handle the situation.
Especially since we know for a fact that God has set some women in authority over men. We know this to be truth. Paul would have known this too. How else can we reconcile Paul saying something opposite of what God clearly allowed?
This is the only way they would come into agreement with each other. Deborah is a prime example of God setting a woman in authority both physically and Spiritually. Paul saying otherwise is going against what God did with Deborah. So, from this, I see Paul giving advice to Timothy on how to address a problem.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 11:33:22 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
We're not talking about duties. We're talking about offices. Perhaps your definitions are different, but Paul's weren't.
Btw, if one doesn't meet the qualifications, then how can they perform the duties of the office?
Aren't we discussing whether Phoebe was a deaconess or not?
If so, then the duties are relevant to this discussion.
Tell me something, is the Church a building or is the Church the people?
My Bible says it's the people. And since that is truth, we are all charged with spreading the gospel. If a woman has an excellent testimony but not allowed to speak in worship, how can she reach anyone that just might be going through what she went through without the testimony that Gos brought her through?
I still believe from what I am reading that Paul wasn't addressing all women per say. I believe he was addressing a specific Body that Timothy was set over. He was giving Timothy advice on how to handle the situation.
Especially since we know for a fact that God has set some women in authority over men. We know this to be truth. Paul would have known this too. How else can we reconcile Paul saying something opposite of what God clearly allowed?
This is the only way they would come into agreement with each other. Deborah is a prime example of God setting a woman in authority both physically and Spiritually. Paul saying otherwise is going against what God did with Deborah. So, from this, I see Paul giving advice to Timothy on how to address a problem.
Are you done issuing strawmen (or strawwomen) yet?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 11:40:46 AM
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gmcspice
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It is not straw-man. It is the truth.
You and others just refuse to acknowledge that God did give a woman that kind of authority. Why, I am just not sure. But truth is truth brother no matter which way you slice it. And God is the same today as he was yesterday.
How would you reconcile what Paul stated about women with Deborah being in authority like she was, then?
That she was an exception to the rule?
You should know better than that. With God, everything is black and white as far as that goes. If God did it, that is it. And can certainly do it again and when he wants.
God opens doors that no man can open and shuts doors that no man can open or shut.
What would you say to Paul when he presented Phoebe, the way he did?
The Church is suppose to help and serve her as if she were Paul himself BUT she doesn't have any authority? Come on, brother. Why would Paul say this about Phoebe, if she didn't have some kind of authority given by him and God?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 11:50:46 AM
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GodsGiddyGirl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
We're not talking about duties. We're talking about offices.
Who had titles in the New Testament? Not many. Therefore, we need to look at the duties. And, women had significant tasks (teaching, prophesying, providing financial support, and working alongside men in spreading the Gospel.)
This is evidence one needs to consider when interpreting those controversial scriptures.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 11:58:08 AM
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GodsGiddyGirl
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quote:
Original: TheoCentric
So, we ignore Paul's instructions to Timothy regarding Elder and Deacon positions in the church, because Jesus didn't teach on them?
Do we ignore evidence that can aid in the interpretation of that piece of scripture?
Again, Jesus, our King of Kings, did not teach on male and female roles. Nor on female submission.
However, He did:
• give honor and respect to women
• teach that women were equal to men in the site of God
• teach that women could receive God’s forgiveness and grace
• teach that women, as well as men, could be among Christ’s personal followers
• teach that female gender could be full participants in the kingdom of God
• present women as positive role models of faith (in many of His illustrations), which men should follow
Revolutionary ideas! Shocking, even for some of His disciples.
quote:
There is no indication that she was in the office of a Deacon or Deaconess.........
On the contrary, there is evidence which strongly suggests that she did hold the office of deaconess. Re-read Post 6074.
It's important to consider the evidence when interpreting scripture.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 12:48:17 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
Who had titles in the New Testament? Not many. Therefore, we need to look at the duties. And, women had significant tasks (teaching, prophesying, providing financial support, and working alongside men in spreading the Gospel.)
This is evidence one needs to consider when interpreting those controversial scriptures.
AMEN!!!!!!!!
quote:
quote:
quote:
Original: TheoCentric
So, we ignore Paul's instructions to Timothy regarding Elder and Deacon positions in the church, because Jesus didn't teach on them?
Do we ignore evidence that can aid in the interpretation of that piece of scripture?
Again, Jesus, our King of Kings, did not teach on male and female roles. Nor on female submission.
However, He did:
• give honor and respect to women
• teach that women were equal to men in the site of God
• teach that women could receive God’s forgiveness and grace
• teach that women, as well as men, could be among Christ’s personal followers
• teach that female gender could be full participants in the kingdom of God
• present women as positive role models of faith (in many of His illustrations), which men should follow
Revolutionary ideas! Shocking, even for some of His disciples.
quote:
quote:
There is no indication that she was in the office of a Deacon or Deaconess.........
On the contrary, there is evidence which strongly suggests that she did hold the office of deaconess. Re-read Post 6074.
It's important to consider the evidence when interpreting scripture.
AGAIN...... AMEN!!!!!!!
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