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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:06:54 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 10242
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
OK, then, what are your thoughts on WHY Jesus warned a group of either non-elect or pre-faith elect on the danger of dying in their sin?
I have given you my thoughts on that a few times.
The problem is you cannot just say; "Hey I dont agree with you at all, but I appreciate your thoughts on the matter".
I have already told you He was telling them truth. That is exactly what He was doing because that is exactly what we can read He was doing.
Jesus ALWAYS told the truth. That is not the issue, as you know. Can you explain WHY He warned the non-elect, since, according to the reformed pov, they were created for destruction? Can you?
Or, if they were simply pre-faith elect, WHY would He bother warning them, since, according to the reformed pov, as elect, they were guaranteed to believe anyway? Is there any real danger for the elect of dying in their sins?
Neither you nor balbas have answered these questions. You've both given tons of paragraphs, but none have answered these.
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As to any of His secret motives......they are secret and not revealed in that text.
Where do you get that He had "secret motives"? What He said was quite clear; no secret there. The crowd were unbelievers; no secret there. Why do you think He had "secret motives"?
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You can imagine.....you can feel.....you can dream.....you can wonder.....you can believe that you were right there in His mind, but the fact remains you were not.
What possible "secret motives" could there be? I think your claim of "secret motives" is just another tactic to avoid answering the questions that you cannot be answered from the reformed pov.
[quoet]You can suppose He was taunting, not taunting, warning.....or whatever!
The text DOES not provide answers proving or disproving your free-will theory.
So, you just do not understand WHY Jesus said what He did. You have no idea, is that it? Does anyone from the reformed pov have any idea?
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The text does not claim or provide answers on whether people are able or are unable to believe.
Please answer why He not only warned unbelievers, but told them what to do to avoid the danger they were facing. The FW pov has a very clear answer, that is consistent with all of FW theology.
It appears that the RT pov has no answer that is consistent with its pov.
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Anything you read into the text is only speculation and my advice is where text is not perfectly clear on a specific issue (like their ability or inability to believe)........find CLEARER text!
I'm not asking you to read into the text. I'm asking you to explain the text, since what Jesus said was WAY MORE than just truth. Are you admitting that you do not see any warning in what Jesus said, or that you don't see the solution that Jesus also gave to the unbelievers? Is that your pov?
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That is why I advised going further down in John 8 and reading the text clearly saying they were unable to hear because they did not belong to God. It also clarifies which people have the ability to hear.
If they are unable, please explain WHY Jesus bothered with the warning, esp to the non-elect. I really don't understand WHY He would, in the light of RT pov.
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47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
Can you use this verse to explain WHY Jesus would warn the non-elect, who have no ability to believe, according to your pov, or even give them the solution, esp since they are unable to believe?
[qutoe]Even on that you sat there and argued and argued. So what is the point? [/qutoe]
I've not "argued and argued". I've asked and asked, and none of you have provided any semblance of an answer. Do you really not have any idea WHY Jesus said what He said?
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What do you want from someone as dim-witted as me me where you never have any real appreciation of my thoughts?
Actually, you are not dim-witted. Please note that I told you your answer was less than intelligent. If you are admitting to being as you say here, why do you bother posting at all? How can you even follow the discussion if you are as you seem to be describing yourself?
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It is getting very old with the way you would rather keep reminding me of how ridiculous I am....how I am full of nonsense....how I cant get it....how I cannot grasp....how I do nothing but misunderstand....how I am so un-intelligent...and etc. It is getting to be so annoying that I dont even have much of an interest in answering your posts.......ok?
Please note I have noted it is your answers that have been ridiculous and full of nonsense. Simple answers would demonstrate your ability to keep up with this thread.
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People answer your posts and points and all you do is come back and stab them in the backs because you think of us as so ignorant or something.
Could you please explain what you mean by "stab in the back", since that phrase can't even be applied on a thread.
I've been very up front with both of you, but you won't answer my questions.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:08:35 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 10242
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
I don't pray for God to save anyone.
I pray that God will bring conviction to their souls, and that He will reveal their need for Him.
So He will not bring conviction to a soul unless FreeGrace moves Him to do so?
He will not reveal their need for Him unless you pray for that?
If He convicts one soul and reveals the need for Him.....wont He naturally do that for everybody equally anyways or does He concentrate only on those you pray for?
Rather than try to respond to your comments here, that I'm not even sure what your point is, why didn't you answer my question of what you pray for?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:12:27 PM
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balbas
Posts: 257
Joined: 8/3/2008
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KingJamesBond,
Here is a thought. What if God did not stop evil all together? What kind of world you think this would be? I believe even the opponents of reformed theology would call that an unjust theory of God. Because if he had let evil reign, God would still be unjust to have created so many men to suffer evil.
What they miss from looking too close to the tree is the whole forest. The whole body of doctinal truth regarding our glorious God's sovereignty and mercy is neglected.
One must look at the worst scenario first to really appreciate the reality of God's mercy. Without the grace of God upon the world this would be a chaotic world. Man's corruption is kept in check by God through His grace. As the Spirit hovered over the earth at creation so does the presence of God not diminished. The goodness that we see from men allows us to live with relative ease. This is mercy from God to ALL men. We call this common grace. Common grace or shall we say the grace of God imparted to all men to impart goodness to sinners make us appear not to be desperately evil (Matt. 7:11; Luke 11:13). Without that grace we will be desperately evil. No conscience like the devil.
The pelagian will mistake the good that we perform as man's ability. As suggested in John 15:5 we can do nothing apart from God. As everything is also from God, our moralities, intelligence, strenght and abilities are mercies from God. God gives us these in order that we build, produce, order our lives and care for our selves. An example is the farmer that works on the land to provide for the community. The gift of God to the community is food. He gives this man the ability to produce food from the ground. The intricacies of the parts of our societies that grant us goods, health and security are part of the providence of God through the grace that He imparts to men. This is God's mercy to a sinful creation. He even gives us governments to control evil behavior. It would have not been unjust for God to let us anahilate ourselves and let total corruption take over. He is still merciful to all men that He orders things for us and grant us gifts that we may benefit from them.
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Matt 5:44, 45.
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. Hebrews 1:3
Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
Genesis 20:6
Now since the LORD has kept you, my master, from bloodshed and from avenging yourself with your own hands, as surely as the LORD lives and as you live, may your enemies and all who intend to harm my master be like Nabal. 1 Sam 25:26
Even though fallen man is at enmity with God, He still ensures that His creation is provided for.
One more thing. The good that man contributes to the world is not meritorious. First, the grace to do good is from God and in the sight of God they never does amount for anything that will merit salvation. Instead all that we have done apart from faith is less than the chaff that we throw for burning, the bible even calls them sin or filthy rags.
Whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23
All our righteousness are like filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6
Paul even called his righteousness as a Pharisee dung compared to the righteousness that was reckoned to him through Christ. He was dedicated to God and probably have what we call "faith" in God. But even those things that he had dedicated to God was never meritorious.
Now that we have establish that even our good works are from above, we then can discuss the righteous sovereignty of God in choosing who live. As God OWNS even our very lives, He has every right to choose among those that He owns who live.
Our opponent wants to handle God with kid gloves. We do not because God was brave enough to write in scriptures that He does things according to His pleasure. We are not ignorant of this fact but ignored nonetheless. We are also not ignorant that the history that is unfolding, He is involved in every aspect of it. In it He claims to have provided decretive pronouncements and He is even glorified in the use of His power to effect what He had decreed.
Catch you later. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:15:14 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 970
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
FG:
Once again, the reformed answer questions by simply quoting verses, thinking that answers the question, or maybe trumps the other poster's verses.
Since we base our opinions on the Bible, why wouldn't we counter with scripture? Why wouldn't we look to the inerrant, infallible word of God as our defense?
May I ask you a question, kindly intended? How much time do you spend reading the posted verses and thinking about their meanings in relation to the topic being discussed?
_____________________________
But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. (2 Cor 2:14)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:17:21 PM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
How would that even be possible since God is omniscient?
Jeremiah 26:13(NASB)
"Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey
the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will change His mind
about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you.
Amos 7:6(NASB)
The LORD changed His mind about this."This too shall not be," said the Lord GOD.
Still think God can't change his mind. Perhaps your view of omniscience needs amending.
No, rw, I contend it is your view which needs amending. I am not unaware of the above verses and others also; but, perhaps you ARE unaware of the verses where God declares He does NOT change His mind(Num 23:19; Malachi 3:6; 1Samuel 15:29; James 1:17). The object is to harmonize what appears contradictory.
Since God is omniscient which means He knows the end from the beginning and what He knows must come to pass, you are saying God is unaware of something He is going to do - that is NOT possible. So, instead of creating a lesser God why not at least attempt to harmonize the verses? This pov puts you squarely in the camp of the open theists.
God always knew what He was going to do. God also knew what He needed to do to cause humanity to do what He wanted them to do. God threatened Nineveh with destruction, knowing that it would cause Nineveh to repent. God threatened Israel with destruction, knowing that Moses would intercede. This is not God changing His mind, it is God accomplishing His will.
God's relationship to people changes, i.e., He is the God of wrath to individuals who remain in their sins. To those He has saved the relationship changes to one of love. Did He change His mind?...of course not!...God is simply executing His eternal plan.
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If everything was predetermined and God did not honor prayer,
what sense does it make at all? What do you think?
I never said God does not honor prayer...of course, He does. It is most effective for the one doing the praying.
God's objective is to do HIS will - not ours. With that in mind, when prayers are answered they are answered always in the light of that fact - God's will. If we receive what we pray for, we have not "changed God's mind". It is simply that we have prayed for what WAS God's will to do. Our prayers did not alter God's plans. This is similiar to God's economy of salvation. He saves through the efforts of those bringing the Gospel. This is similiar to God's economy of salvation. He saves through the efforts of those bringing the Gospel….just as He works His will through our prayers.
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:40:43 PM
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balbas
Posts: 257
Joined: 8/3/2008
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Kelman and KingJamesBond,
quote:
kelman: The object is to harmonize what appears contradictory.
quote:
KingJamesBond: my advice is where text is not perfectly clear...find CLEARER text!
Such are true principles of basic biblical interpretation. Thanks for this reminder.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:54:22 PM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Verse 8 tells us Paul is still speaking about the Gospel "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." What did they not know?....that Jesus Christ is the Messiah...precisely why they crucified Him. Then Paul says in verse 9 "But"...as it is written. Where was it written?...in the OT. But, these things were not clear in the OT "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard:". And, in the next verse Pauls says these things have been revealed to believers...what things?...The Gospel of Jesus Christ which he had been talking about all along.
So, as you can see, there really is no reason for you to be "sorry"...well, sorry for me anyway, since there is no change of subject.
None of this "explanation" changes the FACT that many unbelievers can and do understand the gospel message yet reject it. I was "explaining" that it is the Gospel which is being spoken about in 1Cor 2 - not whether unbelievers understand the Gospel message. Point of fact, I do not reject that they can intellectually understand the Gospel. Why do you never get other's pov straight?..lol
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The fact that unbelievers can intellectually understand the concepts of the Gospel does not negate that 2:14 is, in fact, speaking of the Gospel which I've shown to be the case.
That FACT completely negates what you think 1 Cor 2:14 says.
No, actually your response affirms your inability to see the difference between what is simply a noetic understanding of the Gospel and a spiritual one - which, btw, is the one that God requires.
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Actually, the only thing silly and nonsensical is your opinion that the OT believers were saved in some manner other than the way NT believers are.
Your wild and erroneous claim here is amazing. Why would you think I believe that OT beleivers "were saved in some matter other than the way NT believers are"? What does Acts 10:43 say? I must wonder why you aren't paying attention. Wild?...lol Oh, boy. You're the one claiming that the promise of a new heart so that man can obey is strictly for the OT Jews...now, that's really wild and erroneous. You never see the results flowing from one of your beliefs to the next. To believe is to obey, to obey is to believe, the new heart is needed to obey and to believe - that's what God says. But, FG, says "no, God, that is just for the OT Jews"; thereby making a DUAL system of salvation. So, really your lack of attention even to your own beliefs is very unfortunate.
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In any event, are you really suggesting this doesn't refer to all mankind? Of course, it does. God's been clear throughout the Bible what His opinion of fallen man is before God regenerates him. We see some of vs 13-18 reiterated in Psalm 5:9.
You are ignoring the point. I'm ignoring nothing. But since your point is erroneous, I address what the passages are actually saying - not what your point would have them say.
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Do you claim that each quote (7 of them) in Rom 3:10-18 speaks of each human in history? I know that the RT pov claims that Rom 3:10-12 speaks of each person in history. But, my question to you is this: what about the other 6 quotes from the OT found in v.13-18? Do each of them speak of each person in history as well?
Clearly, from both the OT and NT passages they are speaking of each and every single individual in the entire world save our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Ya gotta love it...watching you stretch and wiggle. First, hiding and lying is NOT considered "reponding to God". You know perfectly well that your point was that even in his unregenerated state Adam could still respond positively to God. You were hoping to prove that man need not be given a new heart before he can respond to God...don't try to wiggle out of error by such ridiculous statements.
If Adam was "dead" in the reformed pov sense, he wouldn't even have been able to answer any questions, now, would he. yes, he certainly DID respond. Why do you think "lying" is not a response, btw? Obviously, you've forgotten the saying "when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is STOP DIGGING".
What gives you the idea that dead in the "reformed pov sense" means unable to speak? Presumably we're speaking of spiritual death not physical death?...or, do you now wish to claim otherwise?
We BOTH know man can respond negatively. YOU were attempting to prove that man can respond affirmatively to the Gospel message even, though, dead in sins. I highly doubt that even you would consider HIDING and LYING an appropriate affirmative salvific response....but heh, ya' never know.
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You have no argument since you believe the same thing. God's love is shown to the elect whether these elect choose Christ because of their own intrinsic faith or these elect choose Christ because God has given them the faith to do so. Therefore, you also understand there is "a definite de-limiter on His love."
No, you simply express your continued failure to understand the FW pov. God's love is infinite, and so is His justice. Your answer is so unresponsive it's amazing. Or perhaps you really do think God is showing love to those He destroys? He showed His love by sending His Son to the cross for all of them. When He send them to hell, it is for JUST CONDEMNATION, for refusing the gift. You were attempting to prove by means of a slur that in RT God is a "a definite de-limiter on His love" and I have shown that the FW position is the same since when God sends someone to hell He is certainly not "loving" them. In either pov, God's love is ultimately "limited".
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 9:58:11 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 970
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Liberty has no sense of control. Eather God controls every thing and man has liberty, or God does not control everything and man has liberty.
It can not be both, which is it?
If I may...
You're right. Liberty cannot be controlled. In both options that you present, you maintain that man has liberty. I believe that both options are flawed.
Liberty means autonomy--self-rule. As you said, it's complete freedom because it cannot be controlled. If we're autonomous, then we do not answer to anyone. We're in perfect freedom.
However, God's will is greater than ours. If something outside of God can override him, then he isn't all powerful, right?
At first glance, this appears to be a contradiction, and I assume that's why you only offered two options. This isn't a contradiction, though.
A third option exists that removes the confusion and seemingly contradictory issue. We have freedom but not unlimited freedom. We don't have perfect liberty or autonomy. God's will override ours. God's sovereignty limits our freedom. It doesn't negate it, just limits it.
If someone else can explain that more clearly than me, please do so! 
_____________________________
But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. (2 Cor 2:14)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:02:03 PM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
You need to explain what you mean by "redemptive" since in ALL 31 uses, there is the concept of buying or redeeming something. How is "buy" different than "redeem"?
Please give me an example of the use of agarazo in a non-redemptive use, because I don't know what you mean by that.
Redemptive in the sense that Christ paid for sins and in the five instances this redemption is always accompanied by other contingencies...such as the fact they were believers or the purchase price - the blood of Christ - as in Rev 5:9 "...for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And in every case it is restricted to believers."
You mention "five instances". Could you provide which ones you refer to? They WERE provided in the post where you asked "You need to explain what you mean by "redemptive"..." So, you see, FG, why don't you stop lecturing others to pay attention when you prove so often that you do not?
Anyway, you can find those "five" in post #32,685. No sense in just listing them since you obviously haven't read the context. So, if you're interested that's the post you'll find them in. BTW, thanks for that info about linking at the top right of the page.
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Whereas, we don't find this in 2Peter 2:1, there is no mention of any price and these falses teachers are obviously not believers.
Your reformed bias is quite clear Actually, what you make quite clear is that your responses are nothing but knee-jerk responses.
As can be seen above, you haven't read what I posted about these verses yet you're quick to cry "reformed bias". If you do actually intend to familiarize yourself with the argument, get back to me.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:04:54 PM
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balbas
Posts: 257
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Liberty has no sense of control. Eather God controls every thing and man has liberty, or God does not control everything and man has liberty.
It can not be both, which is it?
If I may...
You're right. Liberty cannot be controlled. In both options that you present, you maintain that man has liberty. I believe that both options are flawed.
Liberty means autonomy--self-rule. As you said, it's complete freedom because it cannot be controlled. If we're autonomous, then we do not answer to anyone. We're in perfect freedom.
However, God's will is greater than ours. If something outside of God can override him, then he isn't all powerful, right?
At first glance, this appears to be a contradiction, and I assume that's why you only offered two options. This isn't a contradiction, though.
A third option exists that removes the confusion and seemingly contradictory issue. We have freedom but not unlimited freedom. We don't have perfect liberty or autonomy. God's will override ours. God's sovereignty limits our freedom. It doesn't negate it, just limits it.
If someone else can explain that more clearly than me, please do so!
Shemaromans,
I don't think I can explain that more clearly. When I was reading your post, at first I was concerned that you will not touch the ultimate limiting liberty of God. I am glad to see that we do not differ on this.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:05:07 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2957
Joined: 4/19/2005
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Free asked it, and I asked it, and I will ask it again:
Why does a Calvinist pray?
What does a Calvinist pray for?
What can intercessory prayer mean for a Calvinist?
Thanks.
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand how we were saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:06:31 PM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
The fact that there is a point in time when God applies the word to the heart of the one He atoned for is not the same as the potential or possibility of FW. There is no "can or will" concerning the effects of the Cross - there is only "will" - the blood of Christ "will" be applied in the fullnes of time to every individual Christ atoned for.
Christ accomplished the actual - not potential/possible propitiation of the elect's sins. With FW, it is only potential because many will not be saved even though Christ paid for their sins – so it remains only the potential to become forgiven.
I see your point now, K. Makes sense.
But then i question C interpretation of 1 Tim4:10 "is the Savior of all men, especially of believers"
I am not sure I can see what Piper sees in his "common grace" idea: Jesus saves all men from the immediate eternal punishment they deserve all during the time they are allotted to live on the earth, but He saves only the elect from eternal punishment after they die I don't disagree with Piper that it is by grace man is not immediately destroyed. In addition, I would add that Christ is the Savior to all in the sense that He upholds all life on this earth. We would not even draw our next breath were it not for Him.
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That doesn’t make sense to me. For those predestined to damnation its no grace at all It is grace in the sense man has lived his live with its great joys and yes, even with its great sorrows. God says precisely this when He says the rain falls upon the good and the evil.
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That is not Grace! It would have been better for them to not have it - Every moment of such “common grace” will cost them eternity of torture in hell That is sadistic, they would be better off never been born or die as quick as possible.
They "had" to be born to continue humanity out of whom God's elect would come; and out of whom the Messiah would come - who would give glory to God.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:08:04 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2957
Joined: 4/19/2005
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Free asked it and KJB didn't answer, so I'll ask again-
Why do you pray and what do you pray for?
Can you pray an intercessory prayer and really believe it means
something if your theology (erroneously) says God cannot change his mind?
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand how we were saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:10:05 PM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
There is no reason for His choices, none at all. Ah, only FG demands that God tell him all His mysteries even when God declares that He will not:
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Never think that just because God has not privileged you with the answers to all His mysteries that He doesn’t have reasons for everything He does.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:22:46 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3467
Joined: 12/2/2006
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balbas,
quote:
Here is a thought. What if God did not stop evil all together? What kind of world you think this would be? I believe even the opponents of reformed theology would call that an unjust theory of God. Because if he had let evil reign, God would still be unjust to have created so many men to suffer evil.
What they miss from looking too close to the tree is the whole forest. The whole body of doctinal truth regarding our glorious God's sovereignty and mercy is neglected.
I agree with you again. I many times see exactly the opposite of what the opponents of reformed theology seem to see. So many of them seem to think that God owes His creation all sorts of good things and that if for some reason He does not supply all sorts of good things (as if He is some sort of genie in a bottle) He is not worthy of their worship.
I say He is worthy of my worship even if He kill me.
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One must look at the worst scenario first to really appreciate the reality of God's mercy. Without the grace of God upon the world this would be a chaotic world. Man's corruption is kept in check by God through His grace. As the Spirit hovered over the earth at creation so does the presence of God not diminished. The goodness that we see from men allows us to live with relative ease. This is mercy from God to ALL men. We call this common grace.
Again I agree.
I look at it all from the opposite side of their valley I guess. I find it amazing that God has given any good things at all. I find it amazing that God has not burned the entire world and all its creatures up in one blazing pile of molten mass! I look at us humans having any good things at all as grace. It is a wonderful wonder that God holds back any evil I suppose is the way I look at it.
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Common grace or shall we say the grace of God imparted to all men to impart goodness to sinners make us appear not to be desperately evil (Matt. 7:11; Luke 11:13). Without that grace we will be desperately evil. No conscience like the devil.
I see exactly what you mean. It is totally opposite of the free-will position which basically claims people are sitting on some sort of neutral fence line.
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The pelagian will mistake the good that we perform as man's ability. As suggested in John 15:5 we can do nothing apart from God. As everything is also from God, our moralities, intelligence, strenght and abilities are mercies from God. God gives us these in order that we build, produce, order our lives and care for our selves. An example is the farmer that works on the land to provide for the community. The gift of God to the community is food. He gives this man the ability to produce food from the ground. The intricacies of the parts of our societies that grant us goods, health and security are part of the providence of God through the grace that He imparts to men. This is God's mercy to a sinful creation. He even gives us governments to control evil behavior. It would have not been unjust for God to let us anahilate ourselves and let total corruption take over. He is still merciful to all men that He orders things for us and grant us gifts that we may benefit from them.
Fantastic point! Reminds me of these scripture texts;
1 Cor 4: 7 What makes you better than anyone else? What do you have that God hasn't given you? And if all you have is from God, why boast as though you have accomplished something on your own?
1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them–yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
2 Cor 3:5 It is not that we think we can do anything of lasting value by ourselves. Our only power and success come from God.
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Paul even called his righteousness as a Pharisee dung compared to the righteousness that was reckoned to him through Christ. He was dedicated to God and probably have what we call "faith" in God. But even those things that he had dedicated to God was never meritorious.
Now that we have establish that even our good works are from above, we then can discuss the righteous sovereignty of God in choosing who live. As God OWNS even our very lives, He has every right to choose among those that He owns who live.
Our opponent wants to handle God with kid gloves. We do not because God was brave enough to write in scriptures that He does things according to His pleasure. We are not ignorant of this fact but ignored nonetheless. We are also not ignorant that the history that is unfolding, He is involved in every aspect of it. In it He claims to have provided decretive pronouncements and He is even glorified in the use of His power to effect what He had decreed.
Well thought out and wonderful post!
I think many people should let the following text spear their hearts when they suppose they were so much wiser than the fool. I think they should understand that God exercises kindness, justice, and righteousness on earth.
"Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD , who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.
And in the exercise of His will, out of pure kindness, He brought us forth by the word of truth.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:24:05 PM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Justification, forgiveness, salvation, and eternal life are based on our faith. You mention the "faith of Jesus"... Yes, I sure did mention it since the Bible is quite clear that it is the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies which means in canNOT be your faith.
Please notice those 3 little dots after "Jesus". Why didn't you deal with the verses I presented that link our forgiveness, justification, salvation and eternal life on what we believe? Can you be more honest here?
LOL...imagine you lecturing on honesty!
I did deal with them. I said none of the verses you supplied indicate that it is your faith which saves. But, contrary to you, I was able to supply verses which say that it is the faith of Jesus Christ which justifies.
How do you claim to be honest when you just ignore the clear verses that base our salvation on our faith?
Paul's answer to the jailer didn't mention the "faith of Jesus". He told the jailer to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Please explain your honesty in light of this verse.
When you posted this three times in response to my posting the same post to you did you ever stop to think that there was a technical problem?
I didn't deliberately post it three times. Everytime I hit OK I got an error message so I would repost. I wasn't aware it was actually posting some five pages later... The same thing happened to my post to rw - it posted three times....so, I wasn't out to "get you".
Anyway, I did NOT ignore the "clear verses" you provided. You are reading your theology into them since they do NOT say "your" faith. Whereas, we do have verses which "clearly" say it is the faith of Jesus Christ - not your faith.
So, I suggest you explain your own "honesty" in the light of these very biblical facts.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:29:26 PM
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balbas
Posts: 257
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
Why does a Calvinist pray?
What does a Calvinist pray for?
What can intercessory prayer mean for a Calvinist? I love to pray. It is the most intimate time I have with God. Nothing beats being with the Lord. It is such a blessed thought to be fellowshipping with God. We pray because God gave us the Spirit of prayer.
Aside for prayer being a pleasure, it is also a command. Not just a privilege but a duty. God requires us to be humble before Him. With our supplications we manifest our dependence. He is glorified by our voices when we lift them up to heaven. To Him it is a sweet smelling sacrifice that gives pleasure to His nostrils. He loves to see us pray. He is glorified.
Although it is the means by which God provides for us, the ultimate reason as I can see it is that it glorifies God. Yes, people may say that the answers are already known by God even before we pray, and yet we need to pray, must be that God depends on us so He can respond.
By that I think, the thinking is reversed. We are the ones who are dependent and humbled, it is not God who depends on us.
Does it matter if He already has determined the response prior to our asking? It does not. What is important is that we please God by praying. What He has determined is not be privy to us, and it should not concern us whatever it is. What's important to God is that our humility is displayed before Him.
Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 1 Thess 5:17-18
Just my limited and humble opinion. There should be far better take on it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:38:34 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 970
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
Why does a Calvinist pray?
What does a Calvinist pray for?
What can intercessory prayer mean for a Calvinist? I love to pray. It is the most intimate time I have with God. Nothing beats being with the Lord. It is such a blessed thought to be fellowshipping with God. We pray because God gave us the Spirit of prayer.
Aside for prayer being a pleasure, it is also a command. Not just a privilege but a duty. God requires us to be humble before Him. With our supplications we manifest our dependence. He is glorified by our voices when we lift them up to heaven. To Him it is a sweet smelling sacrifice that gives pleasure to His nostrils. He loves to see us pray. He is glorified.
Although it is the means by which God provides for us, the ultimate reason as I can see it is that it glorifies God. Yes, people may say that the answers are already known by God even before we pray, and yet we need to pray, must be that God depends on us so He can respond.
By that I think, the thinking is reversed. We are the ones who are dependent and humbled, it is not God who depends on us.
Does it matter if He already has determined the response prior to our asking? It does not. What is important is that we please God by praying. What He has determined is not be privy to us, and it should not concern us whatever it is. What's important to God is that our humility is displayed before Him.
Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 1 Thess 5:17-18
Just my limited and humble opinion. There should be far better take on it.
balbas,
Your limited and humble opinion was a great one. Thank you!
I posted something similar a few days ago (but definitely not as well thought out or written as your post). Something else that my post included was the importance for us to pray in order to "get right" with God. Confessing and repenting of our sins. In doing so, we refocus on God and he "fine tunes" us. Also, we're in better shape to witness more sincerely and genuinely through our behaviors, words, actions, and reactions as we go through our days.
_____________________________
But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. (2 Cor 2:14)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2008 10:49:22 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 970
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
KingJamesBond:
I think many people should let the following text spear their hearts when they suppose they were so much wiser than the fool. I think they should understand that God exercises kindness, justice, and righteousness on earth.
"Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD , who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.
And in the exercise of His will, out of pure kindness, He brought us forth by the word of truth.
It speared my heart, and I don't consider myself wiser than most--fools or not. Thank you, KJB.
It reminded me of this verse:
"For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.""
1 Corinthians 1:26-31
_____________________________
But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. (2 Cor 2:14)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2008 12:30:38 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3467
Joined: 12/2/2006
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shemaromans,
quote:
It reminded me of this verse:
"For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.""
1 Corinthians 1:26-31
That is wonderful Scripture text!
God chose the foolish. 
I wanted to make some comments on prayer.
I suppose when I think about prayer I think about what is always going on in the back of my mind.
The prayer of a righteous man avails much........and the righteous shall live by faith. If I have faith I am considered as righteous.
When I ask for God to work in my co-worker for example.....I always remind myself, "Yet not my will....but Yours be done".
That is because my will may not be what God wills. I dont see all the secret things God is working.
I suppose it is similar to a prayer like........"If you wish for this war to end, please end it.....yet if what I am asking is in any way contrary to Your will and the war must continue......let not my will but Yours be done.
I see that as having faith not in my will and how I think God should be working and operating in the world or my co-worker....but having faith in Him and His will.
I have faith that all things are happening for some reason and not even the sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.
For you have been given the privilege for the Messiah's sake not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.
I am convinced that the prayer of the righteous avails simply because those that have faith in God know He has everything under control. So if a man prays in faith.....how can he go wrong?
People that pray not in true faith have more trust in themselves and what they think they should be getting God to do according to their own wills.
Does that make sense?
Our minds and hearts should have the desire to be in line with His will because we have total and complete faith in Him and the fact that He knows exactly what He is doing and nothing is out of His control.
Why would someone ask for something contrary to the will of God just to change His mind to fit our own will?
That is not faith in God.....that is faith in our wills as if we assume we know what is best for God to do.
Those with faith in other people or things will ask for things according to their own will and how God can change things.
Those with faith in God will ask in accordance with His will.
Part of my 2 cents.
Take care,
KJB
< Message edited by KingJamesBond -- 8/10/2008 9:15:26 AM >
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2008 2:29:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EricB
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You say a "script", generally it is called God's salvation plan. I prefer salvation plan; but, in any event, the results are the same. Yes, God planned or "scripted" His creation. Frankly, why would anyone assume that God wouldn't plan or "script" tha t which He created? Then, the whole concept of "accountability" loses it's meaning. It's all as it were, apart of a story. God "scripted" the Crucifixion, we see this in both the OT and the NT. Yet, God still says the evildoers are accountable. How do you explain that? We see God “scripted” the exodus from Eygpt. Yet, God still held Pharoah accountable. How do you explain that? Do you think God has changed how He deals with man?
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God created everything perfectly including Adam and Eve. Adam brought condemnation upon himself, and us, by sinning and man brings further condemnation upon himself with every sin he commits. Still, as you say, it definitely was God's plan to have Adam sin and put into action His salvation plan by which He is glorified through Christ.
And that's why the other side is accusing your view of making God the cause of sin I’m not sure I understand your answer. Are you saying it wasn’t God’s plan that Adam would sin? Scripture speaks of Christ as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world and believers’ names being written in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of the world. Please explain this if you don’t think it was God’s plan that Adam should sin? And, if all this is true, and it is, then how is God “not” the primary cause of sin?
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No, God is not the "potter" of only Israel. Paul makes this clear in verse 24 of Romans 9 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Still, the particular example being used is that of Israel. Yes, I agree; but, God is by no means limiting it to Israel only.
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Jacob and Esau were individuals. The election was to the role of fathering the chosen nation. Jacob was individually chosen to that role. Still, they were representing the nations that would come from them. It is not about God personally hating the men, and this used to prove that He has a whole class of people He hates and thus refuses to offer salvation to. Yes, I agree they were representing the nations; but, still as individuals they were chosen. Esau represents the nations which God hates, those who are not elect and Jacob represents the elect that which God loves. They are, as you say, “representative” obviously God saves people in all nations. But, we still can’t get passed the fact that Jacob was individually elected and Esau was not.
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I don't think this implies "getting theirs". To have a theology of particular election doesn't imply an arrogance of any kind. The fact that God is worthy of praise no matter what or how He decides is perfectly biblical. If He condemns people to death - it is just and right - because whatever God does must be just and righteous simply because - He is God. God commands us to love our neighbor, it is not a sign of love to take any joy or consolation from the “death of the wicked”. And the fact that our aim is said to be becoming LIKE HIM should be a big clue that hating someone unconditionally and scripting them to condemn themselves is not compatible with His nature! What God does and what we are commanded to do is, in fact, different. It is God's plan that we love our neighbor and bring the Gospel to the world. But, at the end who is it that helps to judge the world? Hate is a tough word to swallow, I know; but, what are we to do?...God uses it to describe the unsaved.
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I’m not convinced this “faith” comes from God, at all. In fact, I disagree that it does. We have scriptural evidence that many have some type of faith but not saving faith. Rather, it appears to be a type of faith produced by the human mind and not the faith which God gives.
Well, that's what Calvin himself said. If he's right on U, L and reprobation, then he's probably right on that! If he's wrong on one, he's most likely wrong on the other. (Both premises do seem to need each other). How does unconditional election and limited atonement depend upon God supposedly giving a "false faith"? I don't see the connection. I think all RT'ers understand that Calvin was not right about everything...how could he be?...he was neither inspired or infallible.
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I'm at a disadvantage not knowing these individuals; but, from what you've described I can see a lot of problems. The evangelist's "invitation" is irrelevant and has nothing to do with salvation. But, if one is "truly" saved - there WILL be a change in behavior. Christ is clear in Scripture that a saved individual produces fruit.
There's a thread on Washer in the "Church" section. In his view, the evangelist's invitation is basically bringing the "sheep" in, and they are already regenerate. I'm so far behind on this thread; but, I'll try to take a look, thanks. I don't see anything biblical about "invitations/altar calls". I have to wonder how he knows God has regenerated those who come forward.
quote:
Well, people are deciding that most Christians today have no fruit. This is really a tangent, as I know all Calvinists do not go that far. And again, it is hard to go on actions, because we cannot see inside them, nor again can we see the future. They're probably deciding that because of the explosion of the carnal Christian doctrine. A doctrine gone so far astray of Scripture it teaches that if a man once "believed" it makes no difference if were to walk away from God even so far as to die an atheist - still he is saved.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2008 3:28:49 AM
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balbas
Posts: 257
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline
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Shemaromans,
Regarding the need for prayer.
quote:
balbas,
Your limited and humble opinion was a great one. Thank you!
I posted something similar a few days ago (but definitely not as well thought out or written as your post). Something else that my post included was the importance for us to pray in order to "get right" with God. Confessing and repenting of our sins. In doing so, we refocus on God and he "fine tunes" us. Also, we're in better shape to witness more sincerely and genuinely through our behaviors, words, actions, and reactions as we go through our days.
Thanks but all that I have is not mine. If it edifies you, praise the Lord for He is the giver of all good things.
I was just thinking about my response and I think I need to add an item that could be a glorious thought about God and prayer.
I apologize if my expressions are affected, unconnected and incomplete because it just hit me today while meditating on the verses that I posted regarding prayer. I see God's glory in it but I am having a hard time putting things together.
Consider these verses:
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Luke 5:16 Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.
Mark 14:36 "Abba,Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
I believe that both arminians and calvinists believe that the future is set. For the Calvinists it is set because God had decreed the end of man. For the Arminian it is set because God had forseen the future.
Now it is interesting to note that The Spirit and The Lord Jesus Christ are praying despite the fact that they know what the future will be? For both omnescient Beings, there should be no need to ask God for new results because it would be a waste of time to pray. Since our pelagian friends believe that with God's omnescient abilities he forsees the future. They even contend that God chose us because He has forseen that we will respond to the gospel.
Carrying that same theory with all of the events in history, where God chooses because He forsees, we see that God does not really attempt to make any revisions. Therefore what He foresees shall come to pass.
What is the purpose of prayer for God then? He has the ability to know the future, doesn't he? Why would He need to pray? One explanation is that the Spirit and the Son is not God. Lower beings that do not have the ability to see. But in scriptures we see how omnescient Jesus is and how knowledgeable the Spirit is. It would be hard to assume that they are less than Deity just because we see them pray.
Jesus pleading His case in Gethsemane knows fully well what the will of the Father is as He was part of the planning Party that will execute His death. He knows His future and He knows our future. And yet He and the Spirit prays.
Two glorious beings praying is an amazing and glorious thought. Two beings trying to secure a certain result which they both know will never change. For man to do this is understandable because man has not a glimpse of the future. But why does the Spirit and Jesus need to do this? All I can say is that prayer truly glorifies God. Despite having foreseen or decreed the future, God still requires us to pray. Just like everything that we do, we are to do to glorify Him.
Let me know your thoughts.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2008 3:40:11 AM
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balbas
Posts: 257
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
And in the exercise of His will, out of pure kindness, He brought us forth by the word of truth. KJB,
Praise the Lord.
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Looked and looked but can't find a previous post of yours. 