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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2010 8:53:47 PM
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Law-n-Gospel
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quote:
PW if you ever read this, listen up, like Moses, you are self-appointed
Moses was self appointed?, that's a news flash to God. 
_____________________________
The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2010 9:09:45 PM
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starjanyi
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Not sure what you are saying. Moses was self-appointed at first. Then God called him out of egypt. God appointed him 40 years later and caused him to do it his way. Remember he came back more humble than any man. This is truly someone who came to see himself as God sees him.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2010 9:13:07 PM
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starjanyi
Posts: 13
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Is that the only point you have to make? Did the rest help you at all? It would be more helpful to comment on the positive.
Further, it sounded a little sarcastic how you asked the question about Moses, did you mean it that way? If so why?
I have made amendments to the comment about Moses. Hopefuly it will read a little better.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 12:42:18 AM
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Law-n-Gospel
Posts: 623
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Death to life.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
Not sure what you are saying. Moses was self-appointed at first
God was with Moses from his birth, so no, he was at no time "self-appointed"
_____________________________
The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 12:53:59 AM
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Law-n-Gospel
Posts: 623
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Death to life.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
Is that the only point you have to make?
At this point yes
quote:
Did the rest help you at all?
No
quote:
It would be more helpful to comment on the positive.
I saw nothing positive in your post. You put words in Paul washers mouth that he did not say.
quote:
Further, it sounded a little sarcastic how you asked the question about Moses, did you mean it that way? If so why?
I didn't ask a question, i made a statement.
_____________________________
The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 2:02:08 PM
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starjanyi
Posts: 13
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You say you have nothing positive to comment on, what do you mean exactly? If you have nothing positive to comment on what I have said then please inform me on what I have written that is "not positive".
How am I putting words into PW's mouth? I heard him speak on youtube and I commented on what he actually said, I did not make this up.
Further, what is the purpose of your reply? Do you want to edify me or just pull me down? Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control and faith. I see none of these fruits in your post. If I missed these fruits in your post, then please point them out to me. I am being genuine here. I do not want to argue or belittle or be belittled, but I would like to arrive at the truth. I care passionately that Christians learn how to walk in the Spirit. I do not believe that leading believers to doubt their salvation or condemning them, because they do not know how to deal with the issue of sin in their lives, enables them to follow after the Spirit. If our goal is to see Christians living godly, loving, kind, patient, self-controlled, gracious, pure lives, arrived at through faith, then we should be dialoguing with each other in order to mutually encourage one another to love and good works. We should be working together to seek to understand the whiles of the devil that hinder Christians from living the life God expect them to, the life he has equipped them live. Often, it saddens me to say, these whiles of the devil come through other believers in the church. Let’s make sure we are not those people.
If these fruits are not evident in your post, then why are you writing them? Doesn’t it mean you are acting out off the flesh and not love? I am being personal here for one reason only, because you need to consider your conduct as a child of God, God does not expect one to go around writing comments because you are annoyed at what others have said. We are to speak in love always. Please note, speaking in love is not simply saying things that “you” think people need to hear (even though it might "pain you" to do so), speaking in love is speaking in humility, love, gentleness, in peace and patience mixed with faith in order to build up your brothers.
I don’t wish to say anything further on this matter. If you receive it, then the Lord bless you and if you don't then I hope in time the Lord will lead you to examine your heart. You may think the same in my case although the tone of your comments doesn’t appear to be the same as mine. My desire is only to encourage. Perhaps others could say how I come across and maybe how you do to. I am happy to consider input. We need to move away from doctrine, God never told us in scripture to support doctrine but to contend for the truth, please dont assume that your doctrine, which you have probably taken for years without question, is the truth. I believe I have opened a wound, but not intentionally. If so, don’t run from it but allow God to challenge the assumptions of men handed down to you from generation to generation. Men should expound on the word of God. All they should need is the bible in front of them and expound what is written. They do not need to take a little out here and a little out there and put it under new headings that follow the broad perspectives of their own Christian background.
Mercy and grace be yours if you are willing to receive it and live in it
NB: “If the Gospel were more clearly and faithfully preached, fewer would profess to believe it.- A.W. Pink”. This is your signature comment. Do you want fewer people professing to belief the Gospel? Paul never said this; he said that he wished all men might be saved. God's desire is that all men might be saved. When the gospel was faithfully preached immediately after Pentecost over 3000 where added to the church. I would argue on this point that someone has got the wrong end of the stick. If fewer men believe it then it is definitely not being faithfully preached. There is nothing worse than when the cliché’s of men are handed down as words that are on a par with scripture. This is not the word or heart of God, so why do you accept it? I dare say it has something to do with the fact he was probably a Calvinist. If so remember Calvin was just a man. I doubt anyone should be read in a par with the Apostle Paul. If feels like Calvinist cannot interpret scripture without going to Calvin first. Isn’t that kind of putting Calvin above Paul? Paul was the one called by God; this is God’s own testimony, to preach to the gentiles. I have no idea if God called Calvin to preach to the gentiles. I only have his word. There certainly is not comment about him in the scriptures. A good measure I believe for Calvinist and Armenians would be to forget all they have learned and come to the scriptures. Even without a commentary and wait upon the Lord and see what he reveals by his Spirit. I imagine the many would be surprised at what he has to teach and reveal to them.
< Message edited by starjanyi -- 7/4/2010 1:01:23 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 2:07:38 PM
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starjanyi
Posts: 13
Joined: 6/21/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
Not sure what you are saying. Moses was self-appointed at first
God was with Moses from his birth, so no, he was at no time "self-appointed"
We know that Moses first recieved his call (i.e. his appointment) at the burning bush. He attempted to go ahead of this time, so he was self-appointed. As a result he did not know what to do or how to deal with the situation. At that time God did not tell him to lead Israel out of Egypt. So yes he was self-appointed. He was a special baby when he was born, but he did not have the appoinment when he was born or as a child or when he was first in Egypt. He had to wait for God's appointment and his annointing. When the appoinment came so also came the direction and the words to speak. These came at the burning bush.
Have you considered this, or was it just a point you wanted to make and simply tried to justify yourself when you perhaps spoke to hastily. You could have always asked what I meant by this comment and also tried to provide a reasonable and loving reply. Be humble and always be prepared to say you got it wrong.
< Message edited by starjanyi -- 7/2/2010 2:14:32 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 4:10:19 PM
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basstracker721
Posts: 6
Joined: 5/27/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
Not sure what you are saying. Moses was self-appointed at first
God was with Moses from his birth, so no, he was at no time "self-appointed"
We know that Moses first recieved his call (i.e. his appointment) at the burning bush. He attempted to go ahead of this time, so he was self-appointed. As a result he did not know what to do or how to deal with the situation. At that time God did not tell him to lead Israel out of Egypt. So yes he was self-appointed. He was a special baby when he was born, but he did not have the appoinment when he was born or as a child or when he was first in Egypt. He had to wait for God's appointment and his annointing. When the appoinment came so also came the direction and the words to speak. These came at the burning bush.
Have you considered this, or was it just a point you wanted to make and simply tried to justify yourself when you perhaps spoke to hastily. You could have always asked what I meant by this comment and also tried to provide a reasonable and loving reply. Be humble and always be prepared to say you got it wrong.
Star, have you ever read Romans 9? If so, what is it about?
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 4:59:57 PM
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starjanyi
Posts: 13
Joined: 6/21/2010
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Yes, I believe I understand Romans 9, but rather than get me to tell you what I think, why don’t you just make the point you want to make. Won’t that save time? I know it is of him that shows mercy, but what has that to do with individuals showing doctrine. I read Romans 9 in the context of Romans, in the context of what has gone before it and what comes after. Further, I also read it by the guide of the understanding gained from the rest of the scriptures. I on no account refer to man or his doctrine to help me to understand this. I am sorry if this offends you but this really is the way that I role. Paul himself said that immediately after he got converted he did not see any man. He sought the Lord first. Scripture teaches that no man will say know ye the Lord. If I believe that the bible is the infallible word of God and that through conversion I have the mind of Christ and they God promises that those who seek him will find him, then why do I need to worry if God can speak to me or not by just having Him, the bible and me? Are you advocating that God is not capable of leading me by His Spirit in me into all truth? Whether you like it or not the sad fact remains that some men try and interpreter scripture by their own flesh and end up with doctrine. What arrogance that a man thinks he needs to safeguard God's truth by establishing a doctrine to determine if men are standing by the truth. Galvin is not my yardstick. Luther is not my yardstick. Paul Washer is not my yardstick. I may seek to follow their example of life (the fruits of the Holy Spirit). If it suits the Lord that I hear them speak one day I will take what they say and I will search the scriptures myself. I will not look search the scriptures to try and find proof they are right, but I will pray something along these lines. Lord Paul Washer has said this or that. It may be that I have a different point of view. Therefore, I will say, Lord you know that I think this. Lord we are saying different things. I will then ask the Lord to examine my heart. I will want him to show me exactly why I want to know the truth. The only valid motive for doing this is to follow his instruction to seek first his kingdom. After he has examined my heart and if necessary led me into repentance, I will then ask him to show me the truth. What does he want to teach me about his will through these scriptures? I will then pray for the grace, believing that I will have it by faith, to apply what he has taught me. I would not even follow the Apostle Paul's doctrine, if he came with a new doctrine without first examining the scriptures. This may sound odd, but follow my logic. Paul instructed the believers to be grounded in the scriptures. He did not say be grounded in men’s’ teachings, so that, even if he came with a new gospel or doctrine, they would not believe it. Remember we are always called to examine the spirits. The Bereans examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. I have examined the scriptures and I do not find PW's style of preaching or what he says or his SB or Calvinistic teachings in scripture. If you only have Calvin's doctrines to offer then I am afraid you have put man above God. Aren't you acting like the carnal Christians in 1 Corinthian's? I follow Paul, I follow the Calvinist, I follow the SB. Surely, and you can see this. If that is the case, then any of you who are wise let them become a fool. Please, please consider what I have to say. Armenians also argue that their doctrine is found in the scriptures. Am I now to believe both camps?
I remember reading a book by Watchman Nee, and it had a profound impact on me. It caused me to challenge or rather to allow God to challenge all that I had been taught. His book showed me that I needed to really let the Spirit lead me into an understanding of God's will that was free of Man's teachings and doctrines and denominational quirks. The book is called "Search Ye the Scriptures". As I brought my lifestyle and teaching before the Lord, I was amazed at what he had to deliver me from. Much of my lifestyle was based on incorrect interpretation of the word. When I first started to apply the Lord's truth to my life it was a very frightening experience. I was told if you live a particular way you would know the grace of God in your life. However, when I looked at the scriptures I realised God did not say this. Man did, and used God's word to manipulate his own outcomes. Example, where does it say the men should go to church (usually church building, rather than actually meeting with the church) twice on a Sunday. As I searched the scriptures, I could not find the instruction anywhere. I remember saying to God, I accept, if it is not in your word I am not going to live it. I remember Christian’s starting to talk about me behind my back. The more "Spiritual" ones in the church would invite me to their homes to find out what I was advocating. The funny thing is, I never spoke to anyone about it, as I felt I had to live it and others could find out about it if they wanted to. At no stage did I go round telling people that they should not go to church twice on a Sunday.
However, back to these Christians who invited me around. Eventually they would find out where I stood on this issue, and then they sew it as their Christian duty to put me right. We must not give up meeting together they argued is instructed in the scriptures. Yes I would reply, but it does not say twice on a Sunday. I meet with believers every day of the week. In like manner they would throw other text at me, but never any that stated or showed that I should attend the church twice on a Sunday. Eventually they would declare "well I don’t care what you think I am still going to church twice on a Sunday". I would leave it there. It was clear they had not invited me to learn, or discuss or search the scriptures together. They invited me to peddle their doctrine.
Since searching the scriptures I have found a grace, freedom, holiness, righteousness and Godliness that I do not see preached from any pulpit. At no stage did I hear PW inviting people to live by the Spirit. I am telling you the truth, as long as you depend on your own intellect (flesh) and live under the Law (the fleshe's way of living by the standards of the Holy Spirit) you are walking in deception. Listen up. Deception makes you really really think you are right when in point of fact you are really really wrong and you really really can't see you are wrong. God's Spirit will not contend with the flesh. If you bring yourself under the Law then you are under flesh. The flesh cannot please God, the Flesh does not know how to please God. The best it can do is try to live by the Law thinking it is pleasing God. Because the flesh cannot please or know God it cannot really know the love or patience of God. PW talks about grace, but at no stage have I heard him lead people into knowing how to live by faith. or live by the Spirit. I find it a little odd that Calvinist talk about being saved by grace through faith and yet they constantly look to the law to check they are in the faith. How does that works? Think about the new wine and new wine skins. It is a little like using my old Nissan manual to help me to fix my new Peugeot. It isn’t going to happen. The scriptures state that the law was nailed to the cross. Every time we compare ourselves to the law we are literally tarring it of the cross. For what the law was powerless to do. The law stairs up the flesh. I look at the law to see if I am in the faith. The law stares up the flesh. How am I doing I wonder, what does the Law say. Do not get drunk. OK! I am not drinking, I am fulfilling the law, and therefore I am not condemned as one who has not really been saved or condemned as someone who is not walking by faith. Strange! Why I suddenly feel like a drink. Why would this be? The Law stares up the flesh. So how do we go about living out these righteous requirements? By having a mind after the Spirit, putting to death the misdeeds of the body and trusting the outworking, transforming fruits of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
God nailed the Law to the cross, we do not look to the Law (the Law is for lawbreakers) we were lawbreakers, but now we have the Spirit if God and are now children of God, carrying the very nature of God in our spirit. Just offer the parts of your body as instruments of righteousness and let God produce the fruits of the Spirit in you.
We know that Moses first received his call (i.e. his appointment) at the burning bush. He attempted to go ahead of this time, so he was self-appointed. As a result he did not know what to do or how to deal with the situation. At that time God did not tell him to lead Israel out of Egypt. So yes he was self-appointed. Yes he was a special baby, for his wan no ordinary child, when he was born, but he did not have the appointment when he was born or as a child or when he was first in Egypt. He had to wait for God's appointment and his anointing. When the appointment came so also came the direction and the words to speak. These came at the burning bush.
Have you considered this? You could have always asked what I meant by this comment and also tried to provide a reasonable and loving reply. Be humble and always be prepared to say you got it wrong if necessary.
< Message edited by starjanyi -- 7/4/2010 1:49:27 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 5:53:43 PM
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basstracker721
Posts: 6
Joined: 5/27/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
Yes, I believe I understand Romans 9, but rather than get me to tell you what I think, why dont you just make the point you want to make. Wont that save time? I know it is of him that shows mercy, but what has that to do with individuals showing doctrine. I read Romans 9 in the context of Romans, in the context of what has gone before it and what comes after. Further, I also read it by the guide of the understanding gained from the rest of the scriptures. I on no account refer to man or his doctrine. Are you advocating that God is not capable of leading me by His Spirit in me into all truth? Whether you like it or not, men try and intreprete scripture my their own flesh and end up with doctrine. What arogance that a man thinks he needs to safe guard God's truth by establishing a doctrine to determine if men are standing by the truth. Galvin is not my yard stick. Luther is not my yard stick. Paul Washer is not my yard stick. I may seek to follow their example of life (the fruits of the Holy Spirit), but I will not follow their doctrine. I would not even follow the Apostle Paul's doctirne without examining the scriptures. The Bereans examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. I have examined the scritptures and I do not find PW's style of preaching or what he says or his SB or Calvinistic teachings in scripture. If you only have Calvin's doctrines to offer then I am afraid you have put man above God. Aren't you acting like the carnal christians in 1 Corinthian's? I follow Paul, I follow the Calvinist, I follow the SB. Surely, you can see this. If that is the case, then any of you who are wise let them become a fool. Please please consider what I have to say.
I remember reading a book by Watchman Nee, and it had a profound impact on me. It caused me to challenge or rather to allow God to challenge all that I had been taught. Please note, the his book did not peddel a droctrine but showed me that I needed to really let the Spirit lead me into an understanding of God's will that was free of Man's teachings and doctrines and demoninational quirks. The book is called "Search Ye the Scriptures". As I brought my lifestyle and teaching before the Lord, I was amazed at what he had to deliver me from. Much of my lifestyle was based on incorrect interpretation of the word. when I first started to apply the Lord's truth to my life it was a very frightening experience. I was told if you live a particular way you will know the grace of God in your life. However, when I looked at the scriptures I realised God did not say this. Man did, and used God's word to manipulate his own outcomes. Example, where does it say the men should go to church (usually church building, rather than actually meeting with the church) twice on a Sunday. As I searched the scriptures, I could not find the instruction any where. I remember saying to God, I accept, if it is not in your word I am not going to live it. I remember christian's starting to talk about me behind my back. The more "Spiritual" ones in the church would invite me to their homes to find out what I was advocating. The funny thing is, I never spoke to anyone about it, as I felt I had to live it and others could find out about it if they wanted to. At no stage did I go round telling people that they should not go to church twice on a Sunday.
However, back to these christians who invited me around. Eventually they would find out where I stood on this issue, and then they sew it as their christian duty to put me right. We must not give up meeting together they would say is instructed in the scriptures. Yes I would reply, but it does not say twice on a Sunday. I meet with believers every day of the Week. In like manner they would throw other text at me, but never any that stated or showed that I sould attend the church twice on a Sunday. Eventually they would declare "well I dont care what you think I am still going to church twice on a Sunday". I would leave it there. It was clear they had not invited me to learn, or discuss or search the scriptures together. They invited me to peddel their doctrine.
Since searching the scriptures I have found a grace, freedom, holiness, righteousness and Godliness that I do not see preached from any pulpit. At no stage did I hear PW inviting people to live by the Spirit. I am telling you the truth, as long as you depend on your own intellect (flesh) and live under the Law (the fleshe's way of living by the standards of the Holy Spirit) you are walking in deception. Listen up. Deception makes you really really think you are right when in point of fact you are really really wrong and you really really can't see you are wrong. God's Spirit will not contend with the flesh. If you bring yourself under the Law then you are under flesh. The flesh cannot please God, the Flesh does not know how to please God. The best it can do is try to live by the Law thinking it is pleasing God. Because the flesh cannot please or know God it can not really know the love or patience of God. PW talks about grace, but at no stage have I heard him lead people into knowing how to live by faith. or live by the Spirit. I find it quite funny that Calvinist talk about being saved by grace through faith and yet they constantly look to the law to check they are in the faith. How stange! How does that work.
God nailled the Law to the cross, we do not look to the Law (the Law is for lawbreakers) we were lawbreakers, but now we have the spirit if God and are now children of God, carrying the very nature of God in our Spirit. Just offer the parts of your body as instruements of righteousness and let God produce the fruits of the Spirit in you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: basstracker721
quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
Not sure what you are saying. Moses was self-appointed at first
God was with Moses from his birth, so no, he was at no time "self-appointed"
We know that Moses first recieved his call (i.e. his appointment) at the burning bush. He attempted to go ahead of this time, so he was self-appointed. As a result he did not know what to do or how to deal with the situation. At that time God did not tell him to lead Israel out of Egypt. So yes he was self-appointed. He was a special baby when he was born, but he did not have the appoinment when he was born or as a child or when he was first in Egypt. He had to wait for God's appointment and his annointing. When the appoinment came so also came the direction and the words to speak. These came at the burning bush.
Have you considered this, or was it just a point you wanted to make and simply tried to justify yourself when you perhaps spoke to hastily. You could have always asked what I meant by this comment and also tried to provide a reasonable and loving reply. Be humble and always be prepared to say you got it wrong.
Star, have you ever read Romans 9? If so, what is it about?
quote:
I would not even follow the Apostle Paul's doctirne without examining the scriptures. The Bereans examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. I have examined the scritptures and I do not find PW's style of preaching or what he says or his SB or Calvinistic teachings in scripture. If you only have Calvin's doctrines to offer then I am afraid you have put man above God. Aren't you acting like the carnal christians in 1 Corinthian's? I follow Paul, I follow the Calvinist, I follow the SB. Surely, you can see this. If that is the case, then any of you who are wise let them become a fool. Please please consider what I have to say.
You do know that ALL scripture is inspired by God right? The Apostle Paul's theology is sound..I can assure you. The Bereans didn't have the bible as we do today, so they had to see if these things were true. This was a new idea to them.
Paul Washer's views are ALL OVER scripture. whether you see it or not is another matter. Also, John Calvin was not who came up with "the docrtines of grace". Paul taught it, as well as Jesus.
What issue exactly do you have with "calvinism"? I need examples. I see you have pent up anger towards something, and it was like I lit a bomb. You really need to focus on one thing if you want serious dialoge. Statements like "I would not even follow the Apostle Paul's doctirne without examining the scriptures" is TOTALLY irrational, and starts to discredit anything you have to say. So think before you speak.
You obviously have a beef with the reformed. Be specific. But keep it on point so we can answer. And don't say stupid stuff like you did again. Paul was an APOSTLE.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 7:37:21 PM
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gralan
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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Wow. I think its wise for me to leave.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2010 10:47:07 PM
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basstracker721
Posts: 6
Joined: 5/27/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
quote:
ORIGINAL: basstracker721
quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
Yes, I believe I understand Romans 9, but rather than get me to tell you what I think, why dont you just make the point you want to make. Wont that save time? I know it is of him that shows mercy, but what has that to do with individuals showing doctrine. I read Romans 9 in the context of Romans, in the context of what has gone before it and what comes after. Further, I also read it by the guide of the understanding gained from the rest of the scriptures. I on no account refer to man or his doctrine. Are you advocating that God is not capable of leading me by His Spirit in me into all truth? Whether you like it or not, men try and intreprete scripture my their own flesh and end up with doctrine. What arogance that a man thinks he needs to safe guard God's truth by establishing a doctrine to determine if men are standing by the truth. Galvin is not my yard stick. Luther is not my yard stick. Paul Washer is not my yard stick. I may seek to follow their example of life (the fruits of the Holy Spirit), but I will not follow their doctrine. I would not even follow the Apostle Paul's doctirne without examining the scriptures. The Bereans examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. I have examined the scritptures and I do not find PW's style of preaching or what he says or his SB or Calvinistic teachings in scripture. If you only have Calvin's doctrines to offer then I am afraid you have put man above God. Aren't you acting like the carnal christians in 1 Corinthian's? I follow Paul, I follow the Calvinist, I follow the SB. Surely, you can see this. If that is the case, then any of you who are wise let them become a fool. Please please consider what I have to say.
I remember reading a book by Watchman Nee, and it had a profound impact on me. It caused me to challenge or rather to allow God to challenge all that I had been taught. Please note, the his book did not peddel a droctrine but showed me that I needed to really let the Spirit lead me into an understanding of God's will that was free of Man's teachings and doctrines and demoninational quirks. The book is called "Search Ye the Scriptures". As I brought my lifestyle and teaching before the Lord, I was amazed at what he had to deliver me from. Much of my lifestyle was based on incorrect interpretation of the word. when I first started to apply the Lord's truth to my life it was a very frightening experience. I was told if you live a particular way you will know the grace of God in your life. However, when I looked at the scriptures I realised God did not say this. Man did, and used God's word to manipulate his own outcomes. Example, where does it say the men should go to church (usually church building, rather than actually meeting with the church) twice on a Sunday. As I searched the scriptures, I could not find the instruction any where. I remember saying to God, I accept, if it is not in your word I am not going to live it. I remember christian's starting to talk about me behind my back. The more "Spiritual" ones in the church would invite me to their homes to find out what I was advocating. The funny thing is, I never spoke to anyone about it, as I felt I had to live it and others could find out about it if they wanted to. At no stage did I go round telling people that they should not go to church twice on a Sunday.
However, back to these christians who invited me around. Eventually they would find out where I stood on this issue, and then they sew it as their christian duty to put me right. We must not give up meeting together they would say is instructed in the scriptures. Yes I would reply, but it does not say twice on a Sunday. I meet with believers every day of the Week. In like manner they would throw other text at me, but never any that stated or showed that I sould attend the church twice on a Sunday. Eventually they would declare "well I dont care what you think I am still going to church twice on a Sunday". I would leave it there. It was clear they had not invited me to learn, or discuss or search the scriptures together. They invited me to peddel their doctrine.
Since searching the scriptures I have found a grace, freedom, holiness, righteousness and Godliness that I do not see preached from any pulpit. At no stage did I hear PW inviting people to live by the Spirit. I am telling you the truth, as long as you depend on your own intellect (flesh) and live under the Law (the fleshe's way of living by the standards of the Holy Spirit) you are walking in deception. Listen up. Deception makes you really really think you are right when in point of fact you are really really wrong and you really really can't see you are wrong. God's Spirit will not contend with the flesh. If you bring yourself under the Law then you are under flesh. The flesh cannot please God, the Flesh does not know how to please God. The best it can do is try to live by the Law thinking it is pleasing God. Because the flesh cannot please or know God it can not really know the love or patience of God. PW talks about grace, but at no stage have I heard him lead people into knowing how to live by faith. or live by the Spirit. I find it quite funny that Calvinist talk about being saved by grace through faith and yet they constantly look to the law to check they are in the faith. How stange! How does that work.
God nailled the Law to the cross, we do not look to the Law (the Law is for lawbreakers) we were lawbreakers, but now we have the spirit if God and are now children of God, carrying the very nature of God in our Spirit. Just offer the parts of your body as instruements of righteousness and let God produce the fruits of the Spirit in you.
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ORIGINAL: basstracker721
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ORIGINAL: starjanyi
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ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
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ORIGINAL: starjanyi
Not sure what you are saying. Moses was self-appointed at first
God was with Moses from his birth, so no, he was at no time "self-appointed"
We know that Moses first recieved his call (i.e. his appointment) at the burning bush. He attempted to go ahead of this time, so he was self-appointed. As a result he did not know what to do or how to deal with the situation. At that time God did not tell him to lead Israel out of Egypt. So yes he was self-appointed. He was a special baby when he was born, but he did not have the appoinment when he was born or as a child or when he was first in Egypt. He had to wait for God's appointment and his annointing. When the appoinment came so also came the direction and the words to speak. These came at the burning bush.
Have you considered this, or was it just a point you wanted to make and simply tried to justify yourself when you perhaps spoke to hastily. You could have always asked what I meant by this comment and also tried to provide a reasonable and loving reply. Be humble and always be prepared to say you got it wrong.
Star, have you ever read Romans 9? If so, what is it about?
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I would not even follow the Apostle Paul's doctirne without examining the scriptures. The Bereans examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. I have examined the scritptures and I do not find PW's style of preaching or what he says or his SB or Calvinistic teachings in scripture. If you only have Calvin's doctrines to offer then I am afraid you have put man above God. Aren't you acting like the carnal christians in 1 Corinthian's? I follow Paul, I follow the Calvinist, I follow the SB. Surely, you can see this. If that is the case, then any of you who are wise let them become a fool. Please please consider what I have to say.
You do know that ALL scripture is inspired by God right? The Apostle Paul's theology is sound..I Listen, the Apostel Paul said even if he came with a new Gospel it shoul not be recieved. The Bareans still came to the scriptures to check. I did not say his theology was not sound. can assure you. The Bereans didn't have the bible as we do today, so they had to see if these things were true. This was a new idea to them.
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Paul Washer's views are ALL OVER scripture. whether you see it or not is another matter. Also, John Calvin was not who came up with "the docrtines of grace". Paul taught it, as well as Jesus. I know some of Satan's vies are found in scripture as well. Many of Paul Washers views are taken out of Context. I am not surprised, the are Calvinistic views. Why do I need Paul Washer or Calvinism. I have the word of God, I dont need anything else. I know well what grace is in scripture, not what you say in the "doctrine of grace", there is not such thing as "The Doctrine of Grace".
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What issue exactly do you have with "calvinism"? I need examples. I see you have pent up anger towards something, and it was like I lit a bomb. You really need to focus on one thing if you want serious dialoge. Statements like "I would not even follow the Apostle Paul's doctirne without examining the scriptures" is TOTALLY irrational, and starts to discredit anything you have to say. So think before you speak. Yes I agree, I did not say it well look above for what I actually meant. I meant if he came with a new gospel. However, Paul did not peddel doctrine, he addressed issues that where raised by believers in the churches. and by the bye, dont be so heavy with things that are at times not said well. I am more than happy to clarify any points. You do not need to use insulting words like stupid.
You obviously have a beef with the reformed. Be specific. But keep it on point so we can answer. And don't say stupid stuff like you did again. Paul was an APOSTLE.
Yes I know he was an Apostle. Did I say he was not? As far as doctrines are concerned I would only acknowledge the doctrines stated in scripture and no others.
I do not have a "pent up anger" I am not writing in anger" I know you are an intellectual and will not listen to anyone who you think is inferior to you, that is why I said that the above would be the last comment, in order to aviod this useless debate. I come not with wise or persausive words but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power. I have no beef with PW, but I can see he only brings condemnation on people and his sermons are incapable of leading them into the fruits of the Spirit. I am not too sure why I have written this, as I imagine you will simply want to refute what I say and what?
Further more, when you get personal you also lose credit. Make your points, you do know need to say what I say is stupid. As I teacher I often marks student's work. I never say what they say is stupid. I ask what them mean by it, I ask why they wrote it, we discuss a better way to say it or an alternative point of view. At no stage do I say what you said is stupid. Nor have I come across any other teacher, including none christians, that would call what a student had written stupid. That is very imotive language and it's intent is to illicit an insavoury feeling. Not good fellow believer. Your righteousness should be above a none christian teacher's.
I have a question for you. How do I develop self-control in my life? I will get to the why later, just tell me how to do it.
Well to help you out, I'd have to know the why. What is it that you have trouble controlling?
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/3/2010 10:34:26 PM
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starjanyi
Posts: 13
Joined: 6/21/2010
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I didn't say I had difficulty in the area of self-control. Where did I mention that in the question? I asked how I do I grow in the area of self-control.
Further, where does it say in scripture that the Lord provides specific friuts of self-control depending on what needs to be self-control. Is that a little like an apple? You can get different types of apple like coxes, or brambley? So, as I understand you one develops self-control according to one's taste (need). The more I think about it, I can't get my head around the idea of different types of self-control, depending on what vise you have in your life. Surely, self-control simply means resisting the urge to old on to that vise, or to fall to temptation. Is the self-control needed to not watch telly different to the self-control needed to not drink, which is in turn different to the self-control needed to not smoke? I guess they would be, for instance you would need different muscle groups involved in lighting a smoke to those needed to open a bottle or a can. I guess that pressing the buttons on a remote are different to opening a can. So is it like different giftings of self-control for different members of the body? Nope... still not getting it.
If you know different problems that require different spirits of self-control then by all means do provide them for me. However as I asked at first, "How do I develop self-control in my life?". I am still waiting for an answer.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/3/2010 10:37:09 PM
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starjanyi
Posts: 13
Joined: 6/21/2010
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Yes, unfortunately I have big problems with reformist and Calvinist. I agree that the word grace is found in scripture and indeed the Apostle Paul teaches about grace, but his teaching about grace is not the same as the afore mentioned teachings about grace. Well, at least not from my reading of the scriptures. Remember also, that Armenians would also contest that their understanding of various principles of salvation are found in the scriptures.
A small caveat would be suitable at this stage. The word doctrine in the scriptures as used by Paul simply means teaching. However, the modern definition of doctrine is clearly very different. One such online dictionary state it as “A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma”. In other words a set of teachings drawn out of scripture and knitted together to (I believe saying something different then text set in the original context), and then they are presented for acceptance to all new unquestioning converts as dogma. If these doctrines are the same as Paul’s teachings, then why not just live them in the place where they belong and just expound directly from the text they are originally set in? On that principle alone there should be no reason to take them out of the passages and put them under new headings that reflect a new and different perspective that clearly is not directly reflected in the context that Paul originally wrote in his letters. If we have scripture and clear teaching by Paul, always in context of what he has said just before and just after, then why do we need anyone else to draw words, phrases, sentences, chapters and then knit them all together to say something that they want to say? In order to put forward their “doctrine” they should not have to take them out of different places of scripture and put them in a new order. One of the reasons I think men do this is when they cannot get their heads around scriptures that can only be spiritually discerned. At times they are so obsessed with their own doctrines that they even misquote scripture or add things to it in order to propagate their doctrines and put forward their own beliefs. Example: In Paul Washer’s youth conference message in 2002 he clearly states that Satan acknowledges that Jesus is Lord. Where in scripture does Satan acknowledge Jesus as Lord? “but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.” This passage clearly states the opposite. See, PW is so keen on peddling his doctrine that he makes these erroneous statements in order to support and enforce his legalistic approach to the gospel. Further still, he states, “the most important thing on the earth is not to know Jesus Christ, but that Jesus Christ knows us”. Jesus himself says, “This is eternal life that they may know God the Father and Jesus Christ His son”. It does say that the Lord knows those who are his, but not that this is singly the most important thing on earth. This is what happens when you develop passions when you have not dealt with a zeal that is of the earth and fleshly and is not of the Fathers kingdom. Paul Washer is the equivalent of the New Testament zealots. He does not grasp the things of God with his spirit. He will never see it until he repents of his own agenda and starts to be honest with God. He should bring every doctrine he has ever learned and ask God to confirm if it is truly revealed by his Spirit.
I would like to put forward my solution for this problem. If he was truly walking by the Spirit, if he was truly under the control of the Holy Spirit he would be carrying the mind of Christ and he would be held back from going beyond scripture and making these erroneous statements. He would know straight away the error he is expounding. However, because he is under the Law, and therefore not living by faith, he is not in a position to receive the mind of Christ. Following after the Law by default brings you under the flesh, as a result you cannot have revelation, but instead walk in ignorance and deception “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? See, if you come under the law then you come under human effort, and therefore cannot determine the truth from the scriptures. Human understanding is the only thing that Paul Washer can now use to interpret scripture. It is literally Law or Faith you cannot have both. If you try to mix them you will end up coming into deception. The whole point of deception is that you do not know that you have been deceived. So to your mind your doctrine is perfectly correct. You can see all the scriptures that support your view. The devil by the way will probably help you a little to obey the Law, bringing you into further deception. This feeling of living up to the Law will be something you will probably feel very proud of. Unlike these other Christians, you will in all probability be thinking, who don’t have any backbone, I am going to heaven.
Like Paul Washer I write this with the deepest heart felt sorrow that many will probably read this and continue in their ignorance, but hopefully it may save some. As I have said before knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. It is not what we do or don’t do that defines us, but that we see who we are in Christ by faith and in faith receive the grace to be like him and to know that we have past from death to live (not by what we do or don’t do – the law) if we love our brother. What is the evidence that we are saved: that we ware different clothes to those of the people of the earth; that we do the will of the Father? Paul what exactly is the will of the Father? According to Paul it is standing on a hill waving a banner and telling people about the Lord Jesus Christ. How narrow a view of the will of God could you possibly get? I am not making this up. He said the day he sew his son on some hill (in Africa I think), with a banner, somewhere where there has never been a banner before, declaring Jesus Christ is Lord. I think he thinks that the Lord’s will is to have lots of missionaries all around the world preaching the gospel. This is something he really wants for his son? Surely his will is not the Lord’s will. What if the Lord calls him to something else, how will he deal with it? Will he reject his son or be disappointed with God? His joy should be in the Lord and his Joy should be that his son lives a godly life, not that he is a missionary. Evangelistic work is only a part of the gospel, it should not be an end in itself or be used by a measure whether someone is saved or not. When I first heard Paul Washer speak I thought he is a missionary, he says all the things that I would expect a missionary to say and have the same beefs that I would expect a missionary to have.
Please don’t get me wrong; I would never for a moment think that most American’s are saved. I also realise that many people who profess to love the Lord clearly don’t and if they do know him they clearly don’t show it in their lives. I live in the UK and I have the same problem here. But here I think it is even worse. Here they go to church, they “preach” the gospel. They avoid many of the things in the world. Certainly if they are measured against people of the world, I would argue that morally and in terms of conduct they act in a more superior way, but by comparison to Jesus and what should arise from the fruits of the Holy Spirit they fall woefully short. However, since seeking God I have come to the conclusion that they are in error and in many ways and are walking in deception; they love the world for a start. Not in the obvious ways like drinking, or going to discos, or warring provocative attire. The Apostle John wrote that he who loves the world (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life) does not know God. No, their love of the world is for more deceptive. I say more about this in finishing later.
As a slight caveat, from my experience, many of the reformist and Calvinist that I have met are very proud, arrogant and argumentative individuals you are ever likely to meet (pride of life). They remind me very much of the Pharisees of old, in bondage to the law. Does it never bother you to think where the Spirit of these Pharisees went? They didn’t die out two thousand years ago you know. The Apostle Paul himself said that many had sneaked into the church. Likewise there are many legalistic Pharisees in the church today. For the sake of argument, if it is not the reform bunch, then who and where are they? Where are they hiding? Actually in point of fact, I don’t think they are hiding. By their very nature they are at the forefront, bringing people in bondage to the LAW and dividing the church like they have always done.
The sad thing is, the moment you bring people under the Law, you disable them from actually living a holy, godly, righteous, loving, caring, peaceful, kind, self-controlled, patient, pure and like of faith. The Law condemns the Spirit gives life. The law condemns a man for stealing, the Law condemns him and declares he is not a Christian; the Spirit recognises that he is a thief, the Spirit recognises that he cannot stop stealing (that he cannot save himself), but he gives him the nature of Jesus. The law is for Law-breakers. The schoolmaster is for naughty children. The Spirit transforms us, so that rather than steal we give generously, he transforms us so that we want to do well to our neighbour rather than harm them. I know many Christians who do not steal, but they also do no good to their neighbour. Then tell me what good the law has done to them or to their neighbour? The Law says to not get drunk. Wine is a bibber, bear is a mocker, whoever is lead away by them is not wise”. So instead of drinking what other vice to we put in its place. Going to church? Seriously, I know many believers who go to church simply to help them not do something else. Other vices are being a part cliques and going out for meals with special Christian friends. They may also do a whole host of activities with their friends. Dinner parties, house groups, various sport and even visits to the cinema where they will apparently filter out all the bad stuff. They don’t use bad language, are polite and well dressed. They tithe and attend various missionary events where they may buy a tape or two or donate some money to the cause. However, they still love the world. As I said earlier, they may not drink, but neither do they do any good to their neighbour. I don’t see them visiting the sick or showing sorrow with those hurting. I see them showing little gentleness or humility by loving their neighbour as themselves.
Surely, when the Lord talks about the fruits of the Spirit, he does not mean that Christians are to grow in them in a limited self-serving way. What do I mean by this? Lets look at the spirit of self-control. Is it measured by getting up early in the morning when you want to lie in, doing those extra hours at work when no one else will? Is self-control measured by how patient you are with your wife and your children when you really feel like shouting at them? I don’t think it is. Who benefits from getting up early and putting in extra hours? What about patience and humility? What about purity and goodness? The fruits can be summed up in this; it is better to give than to receive. Who do we give to? Should we give to our cliquey friends? Surely that is simply paying back like for like, isn’t it. The thing about a clique is that this is the spirit of favouritism. We select the friend who provides something we want. It may be because of their looks, or their dinner skills, or the sport they play or their interests. The list really can go on. With this kind of lifestyle it is easy to get duped into thinking God is pleased with your life. This is my problem with the church in the UK. They love the world so much that they cannot see the deception they are in. Anyone who loves the world the love of the Father is not in them. Therefore, they are bereft of all the fruits of the spirit. Therefore, if they are working hard and getting on with all their cliquey friends and are fairly clean living, then by what spirit and in what strength are they achieving this? Just a though for people to think about.
To finish, I feel I now know a lot about sin (I mean my own sin) and I have come to know a lot about grace. The fuller understanding that I have gained about these aspects of the Christian life has come about not by reference to the Law, but by reference to the Lord Jesus Chris. I know this may sound odd, but let me finish on this point. Jesus is the fulfilment of the law, he is the embodiment of the law, and he is the spirit of the law. Therefore, is it not better to use Jesus as the measure as to whether I am living in the Spirit? Please do not read this comment as some profound exegeses, or through analytical and critical eyes. It is meant in a spirit of wanting to shine a light on the heart, rather than trying to refute one biblical perspective over another. I don’t know how to put this, but I will try my best. Sometime ago, the Lord told me to stop reading Christian books, he told me to stop referring to commentaries, he said he wanted me to read the bible and only the bible.
I have been doing this for a year now and I cannot believe the revelations the Lord has given to me. Scripture that where hidden from me for years have now been opened to my understanding. The bible, through the guidance of the holy Spirit has become almost like a gateway into heaven. I love the Lord more than ever before; I know less condemnation and guilt in my life than ever before. I understand the Lord’s love for me a thousand times more than I ever did. It is know this love that spares me on to know his love in ever increasing depths. I have grown in purity, holiness, humility, self-control (although it is so easy it is hard to call it self-control) and love of his word more in these last few months more than my last twenty years as a Christian. I believe I know what real truth is and I feel a deep desire to contend for the truth. I know people talk a lot about contending for the truth. But the kind of truth they seem to be going on about is … I need to think about this one …. That’s it … they argue about words and meanings, but never really lead anyone to the heart of Jesus. This is what it is all about, to know him better. I feel I know him better, and because I know him better my faith is stronger. I am really learning what his will is, because I know him better. Because I know him better and I “know” his will – I mean really know his will – I can pray believing prayers, prayers of faith. For this reason I listen to Paul Washer and I do not see the God he preaches, I do not see the lessons the Lord teaches me in the words of Paul Washer. You can dish what I say if you like. You can say I am not telling the truth if you want. I can only tell you from my experience that I have not moved on in God in the way that Paul Washer advocates. In point of fact, that is the kind of gospel, certainly for me anyway, that brought be under condemnation and guilt and no matter how hard I tried I could not find the grace to move on in my life. What I have learned about my walk with God is that others need also to learn more about the Love if God. We say that God is love, but we don’t really know it. We remember the cross. Thank you Lord for the cross. But we don’t really know the love of the Lord. That we would know more about his love and less about condemnation. God’s love brings real conviction and therefore real repentance, and therefore for real holiness and godliness.
May we all grown in love and understanding. May we all come to know the height, width, depth and length of the love of God. Bless you all for you patience in reading this. I am sorry for going on, but it just bubbles up of me.
< Message edited by starjanyi -- 7/5/2010 7:25:09 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 10/14/2010 1:30:25 AM
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clay2222
Posts: 1
Joined: 10/14/2010
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Lynne,
You really should look at the context of Romans 10:9-11. In Rome, confessing with your mouth that Jesus is LORD was basically suicide. Confessing the Lord Jesus in Rome usually resulted in being put to death. Confessing out-loud that you put your faith in Jesus was one of the most extreme physical demonstrations of faith one could do. Next time you read Romans 10:9-11 ask yourself if you would confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth if it meant being killed. What would that look like? How would you feel saying those words if you lived a life that contradicted what you were saying? What do you think our Father in Heaven would say to someone who confesses these words but lives their life as if He doesn't exist?
Another point I'd like to make is when Jesus says "the gateway to Heaven is narrow" and "few will find life" HE WAS NOT JOKING. And He WAS talking about eternal life and not life the way you see it. We should all take this seriously and in the correct context. This passage is frightening and I think that's why so many people misunderstand it, because they don't want to deal with the truth.
I'm not trying to condemn you or anything like that, this is just what I believe in and what I think is the truth. At the very least it offers you a new perspective on things.
God Bless
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 10/17/2010 1:21:32 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 584
Joined: 1/15/2006
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If these doctrines are the same as Paul’s teachings, then why not just live them in the place where they belong and just expound directly from the text they are originally set in? On that principle alone there should be no reason to take them out of the passages and put them under new headings that reflect a new and different perspective that clearly is not directly reflected in the context that Paul originally wrote in his letters. If we have scripture and clear teaching by Paul, always in context of what he has said just before and just after, then why do we need anyone else to draw words, phrases, sentences, chapters and then knit them all together to say something that they want to say? In order to put forward their “doctrine” they should not have to take them out of different places of scripture and put them in a new order. One of the reasons I think men do this is when they cannot get their heads around scriptures that can only be spiritually discerned.
Star: As I was reading your post I found myself wondering just what do you think youre doing? I realize God has put it in your heart to read his word alone. Amen to that. But when you make the argument that others just dont know the truth because theyve been taught by men is kinda ironic seeing youve written a massive post explaining your views. This posted commentary....that youve written is the teaching of men as well. Doesnt it seem a little self serving to condemn the authorship and teaching of so many godly men...then put us to the labor of reading a lengthy post of your own?
Should I take your advice and dismiss your post as the teaching of men?
One other minor observation...and quite obvious....when you read the bible you can only bring to it your own thoughts, fears, biases, agendas, unbelief, questions, faith, devotion, love and expectations. All you have is you. No one knows the bible good enough to say I dont need any teachers. The bible itself states the necessity of teachers in order that God will mature the believers so that they come to the full stature of Christ. Teachers write.
One form of communication is writing. You get the point? Your journey has taken you away from commentaries, but God sends others to the commentaries. God sends others to prison. God's class room is not the same for all and God uses many kinds of teachers.
Im going to go out on a limb here and say that your basis for not believing Romans 9 is not due to 'your extensive study' but instead red-flag that raises inside of you and cautions you about agreeing with someone youve determined is misinformed or not as knowledgeable in the scripture as you.
So, it seems, your real disagreement lay in your judgment of the person or 'genre' of dogma they espouse even before you understand their views.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 10/18/2010 1:12:52 AM
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kingdele
Posts: 18
Joined: 9/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: starjanyi
I do not understand people keep refering to the law and grace. We are not under law. Scriptures clearly states that the LAW was nialed to the cross with Jesus.
I believe the reason why people, including myself keep referring to the law and grace is because of what the bible says in Galatians 3:24 and 1 Timothy 1:9-10. These scriptures show that the Law is to be used as a mirror to show us the exact position we are in our relationship with God. It is to show a person who has never seen the need for a savior that he/she is condemned without Christ (John 3:18) and it is used to show a person who professes Christ and practices sin that he is in grave danger (Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 6:46-49 & Luke 13:25-27). The Law or even our perfect righteousness however, cannot save us. It is by His Grace & Mercies that we are saved. This however does not exempt us from the moral requirements of God’s will (Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5-7, etc). The scripture that you quoted is not saying anything about nailing the moral requirements of God’s will to Jesus’ cross. If you read it in context (Colossians 2:11-15), it is talking about nailing the ceremonial requirements of the Law and the requirements (payments due, which is Hell) for our past sins to the cross. Basically, Christ fulfilled all the law, took away our old nature of sin (if we are truly regenerated) and paid the price for our past sins.
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God does not bring me back under the law. Holiness is not living by the law. To live by the law is bondage and death.
True God does not bring us back under the law, but who are “us”. I submit to you that “us” are only those who are walking (living) in the Spirit and not those who profess Christ and are continuing to live in iniquity (Romans 8:1-4, Titus 2:11-13, Romans 8:13).
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The Law of the Spirit is not the LAW. The Law of the Spirit is the fullfilment of the law (it is the Spirit of the law).
What makes you think that? Was it or was it not the Spirit who gave the righteous requirements of the law? I have heard so many people use that word, “the Spirit of the law.” It is more a code word for saying that is okay to disobey God’s requirements. Yet Apostle Paul that you quote (out of context) constantly stated explicitly in all his writings that we are to depart from all iniquity (1Timothy 2:19). Also that we should not be deceived (Galatians 6:7-8, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Colossians 3:5-7 & Ephesians 5:5-7) by vein words into sining. God will reject people who profess to know him and are persistently practicing ungodly acts (Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:24-27, 1 John 3:7-9, etc). Therefore, claiming that the “Law of the Spirit” is not the righteous requirements of the Law is absolutely contrary to what the New Testament teaches. Rather we are called to seek to be fulfilling the righteous requirements of the Law in our lives (Romans 2:25-27, Titus 2:11-13, 2 Corinthians 4:1-2)
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The fruit of the Spirit is Love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, Godliness, faith, grace, self-control...
The main problem with what you are quoting is that you forgot to read and quote this in context and I will quote Galatians 5:16-25
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I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[a] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
We cannot mention one without the other. Before we can start talking about the fruit of the spirit, we must first seek God to help us overcome the works of the flesh (verse 24). There is no way about it. The first and true foundation of true Christianity is Faith in Christ and having come to Him, He commands us to repent of our sins (Acts 3:19, 5:31, 8:22, 17:30, 20:20-21,26-28, etc). A glaring example of this can be found in John 8:3-12, where we see the account of a woman caught in Adultery. What did Jesus do? He offered her free Justification and then commanded her to not sin anymore (v10-11).
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This is not what God looks for, that would be to constantly keep judging and assessing us.
What you said here is true to the extent that we are not to be judging and assessing ourselves too much. That is we should not become obsessed about it, except there is an overt and glaring sin in our lives (eg if I am fornicating with my girlfriend). However, we are explicitly told in the word of God to examine ourselves (1 Cor 11:30-32, 2 Cor 13:5, 2 Peter 1:10, etc) and we are called to be careful not to fall (1 Cor 10:12, Philippians 2:12, 2 Peter 2:20, etc). Because if a person who have been washed of his/her sins falls into sin, it is possible that they can be entangled in sin and be overcomed and then die spiritually and if he dies in this state he will go to hell (James 1:13-16).
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He simply produces these fruits in his offspring as we confess our sin (not just sins, but our sinfulness) and put our complete trust in his all sufficiency.
True God forgives us of our sins when we confess, but it is a sincere confession that leads us to morning over our sins and bringing about repentance that God forgives (Isaiah 66:2, Ps 34:18, 51:17, 1 John 2:1-6, etc). It is not just a confession that doesn’t reach into our heart and we truly feel. I have to admit to you that some times when I have sinned I have not felt truly sorry in my heart. But what I do is first confess my sins and the ask God to put a truly contrite and broken heart into me. Then I spend time in his word and listen to word of preaching that the Holy Spirit can use to convict me.
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Like Abraham, against all hope in hope we believe he is n our righteousness, and as we offer the parts of our body as instruments of righteousness, his grace and only His grace enables us to put to death the misdeeds of the body and empower us to use the parts of our body as instruments of righteousness. If it is not done in this way, then we end up trying to server the Lord in the power of the flesh, and that cannot be done.
That is true, because we are not able to keep ourselves from falling. He is the one who gives us the power and the will to follow Himself. However, brother Washer is not advocating doing the word by ourselves, in others of his sermons he tells people to spend time in the presence of God and keep on spending time there until the finished word of regeneration is done in their lives. And this is not just an intellectual argument on his part, I have experienced it firsthand. Whenever I spend quality time in His presence I find myself finding it easy to overcome sin and temptation (Matthew 26:41).
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Indeed, we must also recognise that as our bodies are corupt so also is our mind and we need to lay this in the alter and confess we also have a sinful mind and not try to understand scripture with our minds. For the things of the spirit are foolishness to the flesh. We must ask God for forgiveness for trying to understand scripture with our puny corupt little mind and ask him to reveal his word to us through our spirit by his Spirit living in us. Then we can rightly handle the word of truth.
Yes it is true that our flesh is corrupted (until we get an immortal body), but it is not true that our minds (at least for those who are truly born-again) are unchangeable corrupt. The bible told us that we have a choice to either put our mind on earthly thing or on spiritual things (Romans 8:3-11, Colossians 3:1-3, Isaiah 26:3, Proverbs 4:23). We are also told to renew our minds (by spending time with Him & His words), which leads to transformation (Romans 12:1-2).
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Too many pepole are coming to scripture with preconcieved ideas. Some have the same ideas before they were converted, and some how God confirms these same ideas now they are christians. Alternatvely, people come to the scriptures with a strong view of a particular doctrine or denominatioanl leaning asn low and behold they find these veiws confirmed. Often, their very motive for coming to the scriptures are carnal. How do they expect to hear from the Lord.
Sorry to say this, but you also have come to Christianity with some presuppositions and it seems to me that they could be twisted up in some misunderstanding of the will of God.
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for instance where do you hear the word babptist, methodist, lutheran, armenien, Calvinist? No where in scripture. Then how can people expect to find the truth if they bring the doctrines of man to the table. Paul went into the wilderness when he got saved, to make sure he was not taught in error by man. It was just him, the word and the Holy Spirit. And he professed to know nothing and counted all as loss. He literally came as a stranger to this new world of Jesus and said teach me. Show me what a child of heaven, this new creation should live like. And Jesus did, and more besides. And like Adam who was a new creation and inhabited his body and the world and simply existed so Paul understood that this new creation could also walk unaided but for faith and grace. We are enabled to live the life God wants for us, because God wants us to be able, we were called for the praise of his glory, to be transformed into his likeness and to produce fruit that will last. Just as Adam was made for the praise of his glory and to live after his image and produce fruit.
To a large extent this is true, but be are called to build on the right foundation. That is the foundation of the word and truth of God (Matthew 7:24-27, John 8:31-32, Acts 2:41-43, etc). I know you might call the Apostle’s Doctrine the “Doctrine of Men”, but you need to know that they were the instruments that God used to deliver His message of salvation and words of truth to us (Ephesians 2:19-21, 2 Peter 1:16, 1 John 1:1-4). Furthermore, they (by God’s grace) had an experience with God that we can only dream about. Therefore they knew what they were talking about.
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Adam did not worry about how to walk, talk or think. He did not wonder how he worked or wether God daily would give him the power to walk talk and think, he took it as given. He saw the fathers heart, and never questioned his father's desire for him to accomplish all these things. So also we need to see the father's heart. He wants us to be like him, he wants to raise us up unto his praise and he wants to honour us and his son with allowing us to produce eternal fruit.
I don’t think that Bro Washer told people to second guess whether he wants them saved or not. I think what he was talking about is, “are these people living a lifestyle that will cause God to reject them on the Day of Judgement?”
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We listen too much to the devil and discouragement and take our eyes of the Lord and get bogged down with silly little arguements about should I or shouldn't I.
I beg to differ, I believe we should better know that is pleasing and unpleasing to God now, rather than on the Last Day. The word of God even encourage us to seek and find out what is acceptable to Him (Colossians 1:9-10, Ephesians 5:9-11, etc). A good example of this could be found in the attitudes and action of the Berean believers in Acts 17:10-15. So, we are not called to be involved in arguments of what is acceptable to God. But we are called to know what He want and seek the power and enablement to live it out in our individual lives. Also, a preacher has a responsibility to inform his hearers what God want of them (1 Timothy 4:13-16, Titus 1:13-16, Acts 20:26-27, Luke 13:1-5, Ezekiel 33:1-10, etc). So, Bro Washer is not involving himself in a debate of what should or shouldn’t we do, but he is rather informing people (who may not be saved) what God wants of them.
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Neither is right. Like Adam in the Cool of the day, Like Paul in the wilderness spend time discovering the Father's heart and you will realise how much God want us to share and walking in his glory and you will have faith to belive. cause his Spirit will witness in you that you can walk the way that pleases him
We don’t just know the Father’s heart in a vacuum. We know Him when we love, obey and Worship Him in Spirit and Truth(sincerity, purity, non-duplicitous, etc).
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Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Your cross I cling.
1) True Salvation
2) Justification: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13056
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/14/2011 10:28:01 AM
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dan_pat
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Its my opinion Paul Washer is a Great man of God. I have listened to a few of his messages and do agree with him. I see people that think salvation is like a shot you got in grade school. one shot and done. According to the scriptures there is a life we must live. Jesus told the prostitute that your accusers do not condemn you and nether do I. Go and sin no more..The key here is = GO AND SIN NO MORE... Scripture also says what does light have to do with darkness? scripture also says its no longer you that lives but he that lives in you. Scripture says to be Christ like. Scripture does not says its ok to do what the world says is ok or to do the things we liked to do before we were saved that was sin. We are a changed people and should live like we are. If our life does not show change I would doubt there ever was change. Godbless
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/14/2011 12:43:25 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 1232
Joined: 1/5/2006
From: Alexandria, VA
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From the little I've heard of him, I'm not a fan.
_____________________________
"The Bible has dispelled ignorance and superstition in every land where its free and and unrestrained reading has been encouraged." - Dr. Ironside
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/14/2011 12:51:56 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
From the little I've heard of him, I'm not a fan.
Anything more specific than that?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/14/2011 1:38:57 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 1232
Joined: 1/5/2006
From: Alexandria, VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
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ORIGINAL: Saved34
From the little I've heard of him, I'm not a fan.
Anything more specific than that?
Not really. I don't want to bash the guy publicly. I'm just not a fan of the Lordship Salvation. He seems to rely a lot on emotionalism as well. Just my opinions.
_____________________________
"The Bible has dispelled ignorance and superstition in every land where its free and and unrestrained reading has been encouraged." - Dr. Ironside
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/15/2011 4:23:55 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 242
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From: The South, In The U.S. of A.
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He appears to be a very good and godly man. Sound in beliefs, at least mostly; passionate; you can tell that he really loves God. He is a rarity.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/19/2011 7:08:13 PM
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Johnny_
Posts: 688
Joined: 11/26/2006
From: California
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I'd like to see Washer's sermons appear on Crosswalk. Having to look at advertisements for Joel Osteen, TD Jakes, and Robert Schuller is a torture. Hence, having Paul Washer appear on Crosswalk would do some justice. 
< Message edited by Johnny_ -- 2/19/2011 7:21:53 PM >
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/12/2011 3:08:29 AM
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woodstonepub
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Joined: 7/12/2011
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I like to see Paul Washer preaching gospel to Britney Spear.
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