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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/8/2010 2:08:26 PM
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rcjames
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As of yet, I have heard of nothing that he has preached that I disagree with.
Though I do not undersand how the 5th point Calvinist and other "Really fanatical" OSAS (The easy beliverism crowd of OSAS) folks put up with his really sincer holiness preaching.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 5/7/2010 11:40:07 AM
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ag2000
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I know this is old but this thread is what brought me to this site. I have been listening to Paul Washers "True Gospel Series" found here...
http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/resources/sermons/paul_washer
In part 5 beginning at the 12:08 mark this is what he says...
"and you say, oh, there you go again your talking a works salvation. My friend, if you knew how much I believed in grace, it would offend you.
What you need to understand is this; Salvation is only through grace,
only by faith in Jesus Christ, not of works and no man can boast.
But at the same time, the grace that saves a man and justifies him before God, is the same grace that transforms that mans nature and makes him
into a new creature. And the evidence of his salvation through Grace is the way he walks and the way he talks......."
Anyway, with all the discussion about Lordship Salvation and stuff I thought I would throw this out there.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 5/11/2010 1:44:54 PM
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Drummer73
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Paul Washer is an exceptional speaker! He preaches the gospel with such fervency and conviction. I completely agree with his assessments of the American church and how watered down the gospel has become as a result of it. His hermeneutic is sound and his exegetical preaching is solid.
<e<
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/21/2010 8:13:55 PM
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starjanyi
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I do not understand people keep refering to the law and grace. We are not under law. Scriptures clearly states that the LAW was nialed to the cross with Jesus. God does not bring me back under the law. Holiness is not living by the law. To live by the law is bondage and death. The Law of the Spirit is not the LAW. The Law of the Spirit is the fullfilment of the law (it is the Spirit of the law). The fruit of the Spirit is Love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, Godliness, faith, grace, self-control... This is not what God looks for, that would be to constantly keep judging and assessing us. He simply produces these fruits in his offspring as we confess our sin (not just sins, but our sinfulness) and put our complete trust in his all sufficiency. Like Arbraham, against all hope in hope we believe he is n our righteouseness, and as we offer the parts of our body as instruments of righteousness, his grace and only His grace enables us to put to death the missdeeds of the dody and empower us to use the parts of our body as instruements of righteousness.
If it is not done in this way, then we end up trying to server the Lord in the power of the flesh, and that can not be done. Indeed, we must also recognise that as our bodies are corupt so also is our mind and we need to lay this in the alter and confess we also have a sinful mind and not try to understand scripture with our minds. For the things of the spirit are foolishness to the flesh. We must ask God for forgiveness for trying to understand scripture with our puny corupt little mind and ask him to reveal his word to us through our spirit by his Spirit living in us. Then we can rightly handle the word of truth.
Too many pepole are coming to scripture with preconcieved ideas. Some have the same ideas before they were converted, and some how God confirms these same ideas now they are christians. Alternatvely, people come to the scriptures with a strong view of a particular doctrine or denominatioanl leaning asn low and behold they find these veiws confirmed. Often, their very motive for coming to the scriptures are carnal. How do they expect to hear from the Lord. for instance where do you hear the word babptist, methodist, lutheran, armenien, Calvinist? No where in scripture. Then how can people expect to find the truth if they bring the doctrines of man to the table. Paul went into the wilderness when he got saved, to make sure he was not taught in error by man. It was just him, the word and the Holy Spirit. And he professed to know nothing and counted all as loss. He literally came as a stranger to this new world of Jesus and said teach me. Show me what a child of heaven, this new creation should live like. And Jesus did, and more besides. And like Adam who was a new creation and inhabited his body and the world and simply existed so Paul understood that this new creation could also walk unaided but for faith and grace. We are enabled to live the life God wants for us, because God wants us to be able, we were called for the praise of his glory, to be transformed into his likeness and to produce fruit that will last. Just as Adam was made for the praise of his glory and to live after his image and produce fruit. Adam did not wory about how to walk, talk or think. He did not wonder how he worked or wether God daily would give him the power to walk talk and think, he took it as given. He saw the fathers heart, and never questioned his father's desire for him to accomplish all these things. So also we need to see the father's heart. He wants us to be like him, he wants to raise us up unto his praise and he wants to honour us and his son with allowing us to produce eternal fruit. We listen too much to the devil and discouragement and take our eyes of the Lord and get bogged down with silly little arguements about should I or shouldn't I. Neither is right. Like Adam in the Cool of the day, Like Paul in the wilderness spend time discovering the Father's heart and you will realise how much God want us to share and walking in his glory and you will have faith to belive. cause his Spirit will witness in you that you can walk the way thet pleases him
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/21/2010 10:53:41 PM
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starjanyi
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Sorry I made some gram/spelling/punt mistakes...
we were called for the praise of his glory, to be transformed into the likeness of his sone and to produce fruit that will last. Just as Adam was made for the praise of his glory and to live after his image and to produce fruit. Adam did not worry about how to walk, talk or think. He did not wonder how he worked or whether God daily would give him the power to walk talk and think, he took it as given. He saw the father's heart, and never questioned his father's desire for him to accomplish all these things. So also we need to see the father's heart. He wants us to be like him, he wants to raise us up unto his praise and he wants us to produce eternal fruit. We listen too much to the devil and discouragement and take our eyes of the Lord and get bogged down with silly little arguements about should I or shouldn't I. Neither is right. Like Adam in the Cool of the day, Like Paul in the wilderness, spend time discovering the Father's heart and you will realise how much God wants us to share and walk in his glory and you will have faith to belive. cause his Spirit will witness in you that you can
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2010 11:59:25 AM
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deerhunter721
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I too, concur with Paul Washer. He is a 5 point Calvinist, and far beyond that theological viewpoint he is truly a warrior for Christ. He is a gifted revivalist in the tradition of Leonard Ravenhill. He is a very blessed man, and I would be honored to sit and talk with him some day. He, as I do, sees the shallowness of the church today. True, Biblical Christianity,even within many "baptist" circles, is almost non-existant. Jesus, the Creator, Sustainer, and God of the universe, has been reduced to some peaceful hippie, that you wear on a T-Shirt. Paul Washer proclaims what it means to be a christian, reguardless of what one might claim. The shallow theology so prevalent today, is the reason for so many false conversions. Shake me to wake me brother Paul! Let the thunder of Jesus Christ our Lord pound our hearts to repentance and reverance and Faith. Amen!
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2010 12:08:45 PM
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nuclear_sidewalk
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/8/2008
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I appreciate Washer's preaching, though I don't think every pastor needs to preach EXACTLY as he does. (speaking stylistically here, not saying to diverge from scriptural truth) Washer admires many of the classic theologians and preachers, such as Spurgeon. We would do well to remember that Spurgeon had certain ideas on the use of humor in preaching, though ultimately as a tool to prime audiences for scriptural conviction and truth. (never as an end in itself, for the sake of being fun to listen to)
_____________________________
I dig these online resources:
Desiring God | Mars Hill Church | The Resurgence
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2010 2:04:56 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
True, Biblical Christianity,even within many "baptist" circles, is almost non-existant.
How so, deerhunter721? Are they not living it, not living it enough, just not saved or just not lining up with someone else's idea of true, Biblical Christianity?
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
The shallow theology so prevalent today, is the reason for so many false conversions.
Is there a poll out there with "so many" respondents indicating theirs were false conversions? I didn't think so.
Ever notice a lot of neo-Reformed guys talking about false conversions that were due to the wrong theology of ...everybody else? That's really what is boils down to.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2010 3:37:45 PM
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nuclear_sidewalk
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
True, Biblical Christianity,even within many "baptist" circles, is almost non-existant.
How so, deerhunter721? Are they not living it, not living it enough, just not saved or just not lining up with someone else's idea of true, Biblical Christianity?
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
The shallow theology so prevalent today, is the reason for so many false conversions.
Is there a poll out there with "so many" respondents indicating theirs were false conversions? I didn't think so.
Ever notice a lot of neo-Reformed guys talking about false conversions that were due to the wrong theology of ...everybody else? That's really what is boils down to.
I think the main complaint he's making here is that so many American Christians look just like the world, plus a little Jesus thrown in for good measure. They may go to church, but they still by and large love the things that the world loves. (and more than Christ, which is the big issue... and why they're not transforming more dramatically)
_____________________________
I dig these online resources:
Desiring God | Mars Hill Church | The Resurgence
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2010 3:58:51 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nuclear_sidewalk
quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
True, Biblical Christianity,even within many "baptist" circles, is almost non-existant.
How so, deerhunter721? Are they not living it, not living it enough, just not saved or just not lining up with someone else's idea of true, Biblical Christianity?
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
The shallow theology so prevalent today, is the reason for so many false conversions.
Is there a poll out there with "so many" respondents indicating theirs were false conversions? I didn't think so.
Ever notice a lot of neo-Reformed guys talking about false conversions that were due to the wrong theology of ...everybody else? That's really what is boils down to.
I think the main complaint he's making here is that so many American Christians look just like the world, plus a little Jesus thrown in for good measure. They may go to church, but they still by and large love the things that the world loves. (and more than Christ, which is the big issue... and why they're not transforming more dramatically)
That would polish it up, however, since I live in this area which Washer just moved from, and I can see the guy that was his pastor on tv, I have heard his take on it, which is that churches other than his have "Cain-ish" doctrine which will lead them to support the anti-Christ. He named just about every denomination in his charged conclusion to his message. It was a real general accusation which he made and I take it churches which preach his type of message would be the exception. I don't claim to fully understand what the connection was between Cain and churches.
I am sincerely interested in deerhunter721's response.
Another aspect of the "false conversion" emphasis is that we do not know how the grace of God may extend beyond what we are able to see.
Denouncing churchgoers as false conversions is making a judgment which belongs to God. Denouncing someone who has died while having fallen into sin but who had previously confessed faith in Christ is again this same judgment.
That's part of what I get from Washer, but of course I am for urging Christians to live it.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2010 4:58:33 PM
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deerhunter721
Posts: 14
Joined: 6/1/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: nuclear_sidewalk
quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
True, Biblical Christianity,even within many "baptist" circles, is almost non-existant.
How so, deerhunter721? Are they not living it, not living it enough, just not saved or just not lining up with someone else's idea of true, Biblical Christianity?
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
The shallow theology so prevalent today, is the reason for so many false conversions.
Is there a poll out there with "so many" respondents indicating theirs were false conversions? I didn't think so.
Ever notice a lot of neo-Reformed guys talking about false conversions that were due to the wrong theology of ...everybody else? That's really what is boils down to.
I think the main complaint he's making here is that so many American Christians look just like the world, plus a little Jesus thrown in for good measure. They may go to church, but they still by and large love the things that the world loves. (and more than Christ, which is the big issue... and why they're not transforming more dramatically)
That would polish it up, however, since I live in this area which Washer just moved from, and I can see the guy that was his pastor on tv, I have heard his take on it, which is that churches other than his have "Cain-ish" doctrine which will lead them to support the anti-Christ. He named just about every denomination in his charged conclusion to his message. It was a real general accusation which he made and I take it churches which preach his type of message would be the exception. I don't claim to fully understand what the connection was between Cain and churches.
I am sincerely interested in deerhunter721's response.
Another aspect of the "false conversion" emphasis is that we do not know how the grace of God may extend beyond what we are able to see.
Denouncing churchgoers as false conversions is making a judgment which belongs to God. Denouncing someone who has died while having fallen into sin but who had previously confessed faith in Christ is again this same judgment.
That's part of what I get from Washer, but of course I am for urging Christians to live it.
Sir Wintry, Not once have I judged anyones salvation. You took my statement and ran with it. I am judging and denouncing the churches that are presenting incomplete gospels. The churches who arew telling kids "Jesus, It's that easy". Not the poor people who are fooled out of their own ignorance.
One of the big problems I am talking about is Easy Believeism. The Idea that saying a sinners prayer saves you. That is as rediculous as saying water baptism saves you. Or doing any kind of work saves you. You might have said a sinners prayer, and you may be saved, but as Paul washer made the point...You were saved in spite of your sinners prayer.
It is funny that the ones calling Paul Washer a legalist, are the ones who believe you have to "do something" to be saved.
When I was in the SBC, I watched with my own eyes, youth pastors, putting together scavenger hunts, and pizza parties, and luring them back to a final place, giving some weak presentation of the gospel, and then pressuring those kids to go say a prayer and give their lives to Jesus. There was NO talk of God's Holiness, NO talk of Gods Sovereignty, NO talk of Hell, NO talk of sin and what it means to sin against a Holy God, No talk of what we deserve justly, and most importantly, NO TALK OF REPENTANCE! The power of the gospel was sucked completely out by not giving the kids the whole picture, that is, that Jesus came to save us from the Wrath that we deserve, and to Repent and Believe! They talked about how "Jesus died for you on the cross." NOTHING about him drinking the cup of the FULL WRATH of GOD because He loves us. I seen no one under conviction of their sins, I seen no one PREACH IT! I seen kids laughing, kids going in to "get saved" because their friends were doing it. Many of them felt pressured to start with. The SBC was trying to get "conversions" to up their numbers!!! If they cared about the conversions, then they would have presented a complete account of the Gospel. The whole night was a joke and a waste.
What "Sinners Prayer Salvation" does, is it leads people into thinking they are true Christians and followers of Christ, because in their mind they believe that since they went and said the sinners prayer and gave their heart to Jesus, that they are going to heaven. Then they go through life living like devils. Never repenting of anything, and many times unaware of the sin they are doing in the first place!
Jesus said " You will know them by their fruits" The whole problem is, when it gets down to it, they dont even know what they are saved from or what "being saved" actually is. And many of the kids that walked away from there thinking that getting saved is something you go and do, and that that is all one needs to do to go to Heaven. That is a MOCKERY of The Gospel of Jesus Christ! Heaven isnt the goal anyways, Jesus is! Christlikeness is!Being free from sin! Heaven is just where it all takes place.
"Getting saved" is a supernatural work of God which comes upon hearing the Gospel . Salvation consists of Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification, and eventually glorification. Not one of those acts are from man, they are from God. The first three are instantanious and happen within a twinkling of an eye. Glorification is the goal. If you respond to the Gospel in repentance and faith....and CONTINUING repentance and faith( which is in a sense the continual bearing of good fruit),then you know you are saved. Not because you went and "did something." Paul said to examine yourselves!
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/23/2010 5:30:50 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
Sir Wintry, Not once have I judged anyones salvation. You took my statement and ran with it.
No, you are responding to my response to someone else. It's not personal, just looking for the view. I realize I may type so dryly it sounds harsh.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
I am judging and denouncing the churches that are presenting incomplete gospels. The churches who arew telling kids "Jesus, It's that easy". Not the poor people who are fooled out of their own ignorance.
One of the big problems I am talking about is Easy Believeism. The Idea that saying a sinners prayer saves you. That is as rediculous as saying water baptism saves you. Or doing any kind of work saves you. You might have said a sinners prayer, and you may be saved, but as Paul washer made the point...You were saved in spite of your sinners prayer.
Sounds like hyper-Calvinism to me. Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
It is funny that the ones calling Paul Washer a legalist, are the ones who believe you have to "do something" to be saved.
When I was in the SBC, I watched with my own eyes, youth pastors, putting together scavenger hunts, and pizza parties, and luring
Really, now? "Luring" them to the Gospel.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
them back to a final place, giving some weak presentation of the gospel, and then pressuring those kids to go say a prayer and give their lives to Jesus. There was NO talk of God's Holiness, NO talk of Gods Sovereignty, NO talk of Hell, NO talk of sin and what it means to sin against a Holy God, No talk of what we deserve justly, and most importantly, NO TALK OF REPENTANCE! The power of the gospel was sucked completely out by not giving the kids the whole picture, that is, that Jesus came to save us from the Wrath that we deserve, and to Repent and Believe! They talked about how "Jesus died for you on the cross." NOTHING about him drinking the cup of the FULL WRATH of GOD because He loves us. I seen no one under conviction of their sins, I seen no one PREACH IT! I seen kids laughing, kids going in to "get saved" because their friends were doing it. Many of them felt pressured to start with. The SBC was trying to get "conversions" to up their numbers!!! If they cared about the conversions, then they would have presented a complete account of the Gospel. The whole night was a joke and a waste.
I guess I really did get it right. They have to jump through enough hoops to satisfy someone else's idea of coming into right relationship with God. Next thing you know the elders will be checking their paystubs for proof of proper giving...all in "love" you know.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
What "Sinners Prayer Salvation" does, is it leads people into thinking they are true Christians and followers of Christ, because in their mind they believe that since they went and said the sinners prayer and gave their heart to Jesus, that they are going to heaven. Then they go through life living like devils. Never repenting of anything, and many times unaware of the sin they are doing in the first place!
Jesus said " You will know them by their fruits" The whole problem is, when it gets down to it, they dont even know what they are saved from or what "being saved" actually is. And many of the kids that walked away from there thinking that getting saved is something you go and do, and that that is all one needs to do to go to Heaven. That is a MOCKERY of The Gospel of Jesus Christ! Heaven isnt the goal anyways, Jesus is! Christlikeness is!Being free from sin! Heaven is just where it all takes place.
I did not hear the presentation you are describing, but a general swath against a person under conviction or wanting to express belief in Jesus cannot be taken.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deerhunter721
"Getting saved" is a supernatural work of God which comes upon hearing the Gospel . Salvation consists of Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification, and eventually glorification. Not one of those acts are from man, they are from God. The first three are instantanious and happen within a twinkling of an eye. Glorification is the goal. If you respond to the Gospel in repentance and faith....and CONTINUING repentance and faith( which is in a sense the continual bearing of good fruit),then you know you are saved. Not because you went and "did something." Paul said to examine yourselves!
As I said it comes down to someone asserting that salvation has to be "right" with their doctrine and woe to everyone else. It's no different to me than other doctrines that have their hoops between you and God.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2010 12:09:52 PM
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Law-n-Gospel
Posts: 623
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Death to life.
Status: offline
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quote:
Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
Prayer is indeed commanded, but apart from accompanying belief it's worthless. Simply reciting a formulaic set of words saves nobody.
_____________________________
The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2010 12:24:17 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
Prayer is indeed commanded, but apart from accompanying belief it's worthless. Simply reciting a formulaic set of words saves nobody.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 19:14
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2010 2:42:17 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
Prayer is indeed commanded, but apart from accompanying belief it's worthless. Simply reciting a formulaic set of words saves nobody.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 19:14
That reminds me: We have had about a dozen adult members in my church realize they had never been saved. They had simply joined some friends down front as children or teens at the end of a service, recited a "sinner's prayer," shook the preacher's hand, and went through the motions of Baptism. Some of those adults were Bible teachers and a deacons. Never having been born again, they had spent the rest of their lives as tares among the wheat until confronted with their condition through a sermon intended to get members to examine themselves.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2010 3:10:02 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
Prayer is indeed commanded, but apart from accompanying belief it's worthless. Simply reciting a formulaic set of words saves nobody.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 19:14
That reminds me: We have had about a dozen adult members in my church realize they had never been saved. They had simply joined some friends down front as children or teens at the end of a service, recited a "sinner's prayer," shook the preacher's hand, and went through the motions of Baptism. Some of those adults were Bible teachers and a deacons. Never having been born again, they had spent the rest of their lives as tares among the wheat until confronted with their condition through a sermon intended to get members to examine themselves.
Yesterday I read a post by a Christian lady who was obviously deeply moved that her daughter had prayed to receive Jesus at a Vacation Bible School, just as she had done. She said she hadn't always been the best example but she had _always been His_.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2010 3:32:32 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
Yesterday I read a post by a Christian lady who was obviously deeply moved that her daughter had prayed to receive Jesus at a Vacation Bible School, just as she had done. She said she hadn't always been the best example but she had _always been His_.
That's super.
I was even more blessed to lead my son to a saving knowledge of Jesus in our home. I'm surprised by the number of people who leave that to the "professionals" at church and, afterward, never discuss what their child understood and experienced.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2010 5:11:48 PM
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Law-n-Gospel
Posts: 623
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Death to life.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
Prayer is indeed commanded, but apart from accompanying belief it's worthless. Simply reciting a formulaic set of words saves nobody.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 19:14
A beautiful piece of scripture that has nothing to do with what i wrote.
_____________________________
The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2010 5:17:36 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12141
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
Prayer is indeed commanded, but apart from accompanying belief it's worthless. Simply reciting a formulaic set of words saves nobody.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 19:14
A beautiful piece of scripture that has nothing to do with what i wrote.
I may have misunderstood, but I took his post of the verse in response to your statement to mean that not letting children come forward and recite a sinner's prayer is to keep them from Jesus.
Again, I may have misunderstood him.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/25/2010 10:52:10 PM
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Law-n-Gospel
Posts: 623
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Death to life.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
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ORIGINAL: sirwintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
Prayer is indeed commanded, but apart from accompanying belief it's worthless. Simply reciting a formulaic set of words saves nobody.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 19:14
A beautiful piece of scripture that has nothing to do with what i wrote.
I may have misunderstood, but I took his post of the verse in response to your statement to mean that not letting children come forward and recite a sinner's prayer is to keep them from Jesus.
Again, I may have misunderstood him.
You may be right, and i'm not advocating stopping people from praying whatever they want, but let us not suppose that simply by doing so one is saved,(i know that is not what you are saying Euty) but even if that is the case SW's answer still remains a non Sequitur to my post: My stating that the mere recitation of words divorced from faith does not save, and to be answered with a verse about not hindering children in coming to Christ  . Of course, i doubt The Lord had anything in mind concerning the "Sinners prayer" in that verse.
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The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/26/2010 1:30:35 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 481
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
non Sequitur
Well Dave, I could not think of why you would pull that sentence out of a response to someone else to tell me prayer must be accompanied by belief. What should my response have been? Thank you?
My original statement which has resulted in my responding to posts from four different people was that it seems that neo-reformed/Washer fans are hung up on telling others they had a false conversion because they don't like their theology.
It sounds conflicting to me to hear that children are pressured to pray a prayer, but that they were not yelled at sometimes in all caps like the poster I was responding to was doing regarding hell and judgment. So it's the wrong kind of pressure to make them pray a prayer? I think that an idea is being asserted based a flavor of theology rather than the truth in a blank statement.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/26/2010 3:28:46 PM
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gralan
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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Many Baptists still refer to it as "the old sawdust trail"...
I'm recalling what God reveals in John 1:
11. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not welcome Him.
12. But as many as welcomed Him, to these He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: sirwintery
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ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
Prayer is pretty basic and is commanded.
Prayer is indeed commanded, but apart from accompanying belief it's worthless. Simply reciting a formulaic set of words saves nobody.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 19:14
That reminds me: We have had about a dozen adult members in my church realize they had never been saved. They had simply joined some friends down front as children or teens at the end of a service, recited a "sinner's prayer," shook the preacher's hand, and went through the motions of Baptism. Some of those adults were Bible teachers and a deacons. Never having been born again, they had spent the rest of their lives as tares among the wheat until confronted with their condition through a sermon intended to get members to examine themselves.
We are told that no man comes to Jesus except they be drawn by the Father, and Jesus welcomes them all, gives them back to the Father who keeps them. Jesus says that, you know; not Calvin or Knox...
God knows who are His.
Thankfully He stands at the right hand of the needy, with us so that if we stumble we will not fall. (see Ps. 37 and 109)
I know of a SBC preacher who after 15 years of praise-worthy service and dedication discovered he was not saved. He responded by faith to that realization, because when God convicts it is always unto repentence with amendment of life. Because it is by faith, and not by works.
We joked in-house about whether we (Baptists) should insist that all those he had previously baptized be rebaptized because it was done by a person who had not possessed a "like-minded faith"; for Baptists the idea of like-minded faith and reBaptism are most powerful topics - even for those who are "Reformed" Baptists.
In the face of mystery, if we maintain a sour puss because of it we shall be sorry-sots. With God, from our perspective, there shall ever be a lot of mystery involved. He is infinite, we are finite.
Some of it we grasp a little because of God's revelation. Some we explore, but all we have to accept by faith or we have no faith.
We must smile in the face of mystery and worship God. It is an essential fact that all of God's ways are beyond our searching and scrutiny. (Rom11)
IMO. IME. From what I can ascertain with faithful eyes. I seek to examine myself to see if I remain in the faith, regularly I do, at least weekly. I check to see if I remain:
(1)Within the final authority of Scripture,
(2) according to fruitful faith unaccompanied by meritorious works,
(3) because of the pure undeserved grace of God,
(4) in and through our Dear and only Lord God & Savior,
(5) to the majestic glory of our Holy, holy, holy God alone.
- Selah! now think about that.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 6/26/2010 11:51:15 PM
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starjanyi
Posts: 13
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: offline
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Eph 2:20-22 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
I am constantly hearing people talk about the truth and revival and reformist and so on and so forth... and I hear comments on holiness and righteousness....
Knowing the “Truth” is not know about a bunch of facts, or bragging because one know scripture better than another, or knows Greek better than another. Jesus rebuked people for diligently searching the scripture and still not know him.
I also hearing about people constantly laying the foundation.. Paul says I lay the foundation, which is Christ, and another waters. The gospel is more than simply getting conversions or making sure people got saved the right way. The apostle Paul did not concern himself with this, as the passage above states clearly; he was in the business of building the church up to maturity.
What is Holiness and what is righteousness? Is holiness knowing the truth (ie the "correct" interpretation of scripture")? What is righteousness? Simply saying no to sin? Is holiness going to a meeting instead of staying at home and having a night in or going to a friend's house, or doing something else, apart from the "church" meeting. What is “The Work”? Is it simply getting people saved or seeking to build the foundation of Jesus Christ in the lives of those we meet?
One of the easiest things we can do as believers is live the Christian life. The fruits of the Spirit are Love, peace, patience, self-control, kindness, Godliness, joy, faith... We don't have to make ourselves like this, we simply trust him to make us like this.
Holiness is allowing God to work in us to will and to act according to his good pleasure. Righteousness is the fruits of the Holy Spirit that only God can produce in our lives. Guess what? It isn’t hard to do. By faith we believe he will do this, scripture clearly promises that he is both willing, able and indeed has provided the grace to do this.
Why do you make it so hard with this useless debate? You are all acting carnal. I follow Paul, I follow Appollos or I follow whomever else. If any of you are proud by the world’s standards then become a fool. Please understand, scriptural understanding comes only by revelation, not by human understanding. Scripture is for the simple, not for the intellectuals.
Listen up, I will say it again... stop being carnal. Love builds up and knowledge puffs up. Humble yourselves and declare I know nothing, and ask God in his mercy to reveal the word to you again anew. I have done this often and I find it works.
This debate you are having is alien to me. As a result of what I would call a real meeting with God and wonderful revelations with the Lord there are two things I have come to experience.
One of them is the fruit of the Spirit in my life. My wife will affirm this. I am the weakest Christian and ungodly Christian you are ever likely to meet. Since I came to realise that God wants me to be Righteous, that God loves me and accepts me for who I am (with all my sin) and knows I cannot nor never will be able to cut the mustard, He gladly pours His righteousness into me. He and only he is able to transform me into the likeness of His Son, the Lord, my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Did a name ever sound so sweet? Praise you Jesus. He wants me to share in the life of his son. I am a new creation. Just as Adam was a new creation, so am I. On the day he was created he opened his eyes, and looked and sew the light. He was able to walk and talk and move about. He did not spend his days trying to work it out or wonder if God would take it away, or what he had to do to keep it. We also are a new creation. Listen up, this new creation can also walk and talk and commune with God. This new creation simply receives. If God did it all for the old creation, do you really think he would not do it all for the new creation? Come on! Why are you making it so hard? Instead of focusing on whether people had a true conversion, or on whether they did or are doing the right thing, why not focus on what God has done. Can anyone tell me, not by knowing the scriptures, but by actual experience what God's attitude is toward them right now? Do you know what God is thinking of you and about you right now? God loves us, he really does regard us as his children, he really does want the best for us, he really is on our side. He really does want us to share in that wonderful relationship he has with His Son. Can there be anything better? To love perfectly and to perfectly know you are perfectly loved. Not to know about it but to really know it. This is eternal life that they may know the Father and the Son. Wow!
The other thing I have come to know is a guiltiness life. What does God require of me? Doe he require that a feel bad about my sin? So bad that I will do something about it? Sort of, but not quite. I raise my children the right way because I love them. When they do wrong I do not lay heavy guilt on them, I do not go on about their wrongs all the time and how bad they are. They are young they do not know any better. Even when they are older, I will not disown them when they do wrong, I will firstly seek to show them the higher way by my own conduct. I will show them the love I have for them. I will communicate my desire that they live the highest way because it will benefit them, because it is to my honour, so that they will learn and pass on my values. I do not want my children feeling guilty, but rather hungry for the highest way. Because they see that blessing and peace lie in the highest way. God does not want us walking in guilt. God want us to know he is on our side, that he is happy to win us, to win our hearts, for he himself to be our example and to lead us to the highest way. How many people really know the peace of God? If they do not know the peace of God then how can they walk in the peace of God or give peace to others. Faith is not blind. Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we cannot see. In other words Faith can actually experience the peace of God. You cannot receive the peace of God unless you have some idea of what it is. Peace is not simply the absence of turmoil; peace is peace in the eyes of the storm. That kind of peace can only be born in the heart by the Holy Spirit. I do no believe that the Father wants us contrite all the time, pleading for his mercies. He wants us to approach him with boldness and confidence and receive that which he is eager to give us. Unless we receive the fruit of the Spirit then all our building, not just the platform will be with wood hay and stubble.
That is a big problem, because that means that those who build in such a way will escape as one escaping through the fire, with all work burnt up, do you really want that. Remember the call is to build the church, not to lay the foundation all the time, or to keep challenging the foundation others have built.
Paul says it very clearly, people are saved if they are saved on the foundation of Jesus Christ. That is the first step, but be care full how you build or judging things before the appointed time. Paul reminds believers about how the ungodly live, but he did not keep challenging them about their salvation. If the platform is there, who are you or any man to say they are not saved? One of the things I look for in scripture is a pattern. Did Paul or anyone else address this issue, or talk in this particular way or ever use these words. If they did not, I do not even consider discussing the issue. Example, did Paul ever say to anyone in the church you believers here are not saved, did Peter or James or John? No they did not. Then how can it be right for any man to set himself up as the keeper of men’s souls, as the one who can read the minds of men. Scripture teaches is that only the Spirit can know our thoughts, therefore only the Spirit can know if I do not have a “sound” conversion. How would my child feel if every time they did wrong I said I question whether you are my child or not? That would be awful. Lets us encourage to love and good works, not guilt the flesh into trying to do something it will never be able to achieve.
Sorry for the long message, but I feel people need to read it.
Peace to you all and grace.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2010 8:48:00 PM
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starjanyi
Posts: 13
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: offline
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I listened to the PW student rally thing that he preached at today for the first time. I don’t get it.
He seems to have something in his head and he can't break out of it. He is so full of doctrine that he no longer sees the wood for the trees. There is no such thing as Calvinism. Jesus did not say upon this "Calvinism" rock I will build my church. Paul did not say "now concerning the doctrine of Calvinism" I say this. One cannot take a bunch of scriptures out of the bible (the said same scriptures by so doing are usually taken out of context) and make a doctrine out of them. Where did Jesus, Paul, John or James instruct us to do this?
I heard Paul Washer (PW) use such words as Holy, Righteous, truth and the Will of God, but at no stage did he define what they are. The only definitions he had of them were what they are not. Holiness is not committing abortion. Righteousness is not warring the same clothes as people of the world, the truth is, and well I'm not too sure what he defines as truth there. If he means truth as interpreted according to the doctrine of Calvin, then he is way of the mark.
I remember studying science. We were asked the question is science scientific. What we mean be this is a little like SCI (crime scene investigation) unit do, they simply let the facts speak for them selves. They try not to make the facts say what they want them to say. We found out that often when scientist are faced with a new way of seeing things they find it very hard to give up the old ways, even if they not longer can answer the basic questions. For them to give up their way of looking at things in a certain way is to admit that they have been duped. They were foolish enough to be taught the wrong way. Many have invested years and vast fortunes on their perspectives. They are not going to give them up with out a fight. Some feel absolute fear at the thought they could be wrong. One group of scientist studying rats brains were so convinced that their approach was right that they misinterpreted black marks on the rats brains. Their theory told them that they were not there, even when the evidence told them it was. It was years later when they accepted the truth and redefined their views.
PW comes to scripture form the perspectives of the Southern Baptist and Calvinist. This is what he was grounded in. Added to this is a man of the flesh. He may think he is a man of the Spirit, but what I sew on that video, what I heard was a man who interpreted scripture through the mind of the flesh. He can see there is a problem with the church, but he does not know how to solve it. PW if you ever read this, listen up, like Moses before he left Egypt he thought he could do it his way and was not prepared to wait for God's call, you are self-appointed, and God has not called you to speak to the church from the view point of Calvinism or the Southern Baptist. God does not follow any doctrine. If you really want to know the Lord, the first thing you need to do is unlearn every single doctrine you have been taught. You cannot mix the old with the new. God will not mix his truth with the doctrine of men (Calvinism) Go away somewhere and seek God. Say to God I know nothing. Say to God I will search the scriptures and them only. I will not consult a man; I will not consult a commentary. I will allow your Spirit and your Spirit only to teach me the truth. Now listen up, not teach you the truth so you can preach better sermons, but teach you the truth so that you can know him better. This is eternal life, that you may know God and Jesus Christ his Son. Note: not known by God, but know God.
I did this and I was blown away by what the Lord taught me. How often I went to church after spending time in the scriptures and I could not link the too. Scripture seemed to say one thing and my church experience said another. Whenever I challenged things I would be kindly corrected, or even worse be given a blank look. I found life in the scriptures, but the church was lively. I seemed to get good solid teaching in the church, systematic in-depth teaching, but it never really measured up to what I saw in the early church from the time of Pentecost right through the epistles. I was often faced with cold words like righteousness, Holiness, Godliness, Sanctified, but never really came to experience what these actually where. They seemed to be not doing certain things in the world, attending meetings and being involved in evangelism. They all seemed to be doing things.
Since rediscovering scripture I now see that Church, Holiness, Righteousness, Godliness and Truth are far more than these things. God is Holy. Ok, we know that God's ways are above our ways. His ways are Holy, our ways unholy. OK i get that so far. Holiness is being set a side for a better or higher purpose. OK, so what is this higher purpose? What is God's higher purpose that we should be set aside to? Is this higher purpose to go to church, to not get drunk, to ware proper clothing? I don’t think so. God's ways are not something apart from Himself (i.e. his holiness is not some short term plan he has for the earth, that would mean he is holy so long as the old earth is here. Huh?). He will remain holy when the old earth is no longer here; he was holy before the earth was formed. Holiness is His nature. His nature is love, purity, self-control, patience, kindness, Joy, goodness, faith, grace. This is his holiness. It is because of these fruits that he has plans for the earth. Because God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son. Because of his patience he leads men towards repentance. I hope you are getting the picture here.
What is righteousness? What is right standing before a "Holy" God? Surely we have just answered that question. When through the Spirit we put to death the misdeeds of the body and allow the Spirit to produce the holy fruits of the Spirit in our lives. Then we will carry his heart for the world and for the church. Then we will have confidence to call the church to a higher life. One that can be achieved by encouraging believers to love and good works that comes out of the Holy Spirit fruits. However, you can not have this unless you see that you must be totally dependant on God for everything and that you allow God to really make you aware of how utterly sinful you are. Not so that you can walk around in condemnation or find or show proof of your salvation, but so that you can come to a totally providing God who alone must receive the glory for your righteousness and works of the Spirit.
PW in one of his sermons makes the point that he was not ignoring grace in a believer’s life. He said that we would be offended if we were to hear all that he knows about grace. I dare say Paul that if you knew what I knew about grace I guarantee, based on what I have heard you say thus far, that you would be completely freaked out by what I know about grace. You would be positively mortified if you knew what I understood about sin. You think you know what it is to be a sinner. I could tell you what it is really like to be a sinner (I mean to really know the utter sinfulness and depravedness of yourself). You may say you have seen a lot. You may say you have seen the utter depraved acts of wanton men. But that is not knowing your sin. Knowing sin is seeing yourself as God’s sees you. It is seeing you as if the Spirit was drawn from the earth and all law was taken from the earth. It is really really knowing your utter sinfulness, the person that Jesus really died for. He did not die only for the sins you committed and for your future sins, he died for the sinner. Even you think that you are not a thief, and an Adulterer, an idolater, a murder etc then you have not truly seen yourself. Think of the worse thing you have done and times that by at least ten. Some of it has not come out yet, but it will. Why? So that God can work in you his grace. Were sin abound grace super abounds.
If we cannot see our sin then we cannot confess it. However, what leads us to repentance is after seeing our sin we are reminded that God already knew that sin was there, in point of fact it was he that showed us, so that we could see his love and patience and could receive his grace. He has always intended to replace our sinfulness with his grace – with the fruits of the Holy Spirit – but the painful part is seeing our utter wretchedness before a holy God. Who will save me from this body of sin and death? The Christian walk would be a lot easier if we allowed God to do his work in us and in others. We are not here to condemn one another, but to provoke one another to love and good works.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. No longer shall a man teach you, know thee the Lord, but each one will be taught of the Lord directly. Only God knows my sin, and only God can lead me into seeing it. My prayer is that there are those around to encourage the believer, so that they are not overcome with guilt, but that they find the forgiveness and also the power of a renewed mind and a transformed will and life. God works in us to will and to act according to his good pleasure. Lets start believing this, because it is true, he said it for a reason you know and he means it.
Grace and peace be to all you who believe
< Message edited by starjanyi -- 7/1/2010 9:17:57 PM >
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