quote:

ORIGINAL: TreysNana

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

Some people who deny Tradition have one anyway, and make no effective distinction between their interpretation of Scripture and Scripture itself.

Sadly, that's all too true. However, that's hardly compelling justification for elevating tradition to the level of the Word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreysNana

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

Some people who deny Tradition have one anyway, and make no effective distinction between their interpretation of Scripture and Scripture itself.

Sadly, that's all too true. However, that's hardly compelling justification for elevating tradition to the level of the Word.

quote:

Man it gets confusing with all these seperate threads at times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

quote:

Man it gets confusing with all these seperate threads at times.

No foolin'!

I get "thread blur" a lot....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

Hrmm, where were we then...*tries to get back to topic*

Let's see. Frtitz was seemingly confused over the issue of how it seems that Jesus' death on the Cross didn't cover all of our sins right?

Well, the thing is, it did. It's because of Jesus' crucifixion that we are able to enjoy the fruits of eternal life.

However, while Jesus' crucifixion did open the door to salvation, we are able to close it on ourselves through sin. Fortunately, Jesus is patient enough to allow us to recieve salvation over and over through His ONE sacrifice.

Now, we can only be baptized once. Baptism makes a new creature in Christ. However, because we're human, we can still fall into sin and throw away the wonderous gift God has given us through the Passion of the Son. But Our Lord is Love and Mercy, He freely offers us salvation again and again. Thus we can repent of our sins and be rejoined again to the body of Christ through the sacrament of reconciliation. :)

Now to finally get to purgatory.... If we are still trapped by venial sins when we pass away, we wwill enter Heven, but only as through a fire (as Paul wrote). This fire then, this cleansing is known as "purgatory."

This is very obviously a VERY generalized explanation. It does show (I think) how the various sacraments are intertwined. You can't fully understand the concept of why we need purgatory if you don't understand the concepts behind the sacrament of reconciliation, and if you don't understand the Catholic view of how salvation is not just a single event, but an ongoing process. They're all dependent on each other.

Anyways, I'm short on time, hence this disjointed post... :) I'll try to post a more in depth defense of the concept of purgatory later if I have time tonight. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperFork

Answer this question for me (anyone), and i will respond with scripture later:

If I, a born-again christian get on my knees and beg God to get out of my life; if I beg the Holy Spirit to leave me and have no part in my life anymore. If I plead with Jesus to forget he ever met me, tell him that I hate him, and that my salvation be stripped, and truly mean it, will I still be saved?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperFork

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperFork

Answer this question for me (anyone), and i will respond with scripture later:

If I, a born-again christian get on my knees and beg God to get out of my life; if I beg the Holy Spirit to leave me and have no part in my life anymore. If I plead with Jesus to forget he ever met me, tell him that I hate him, and that my salvation be stripped, and truly mean it, will I still be saved?

What kind of a question is that? Of course you will not be saved. It is clear that you can close the door on salvation because that is logical. To even doubt the loss of your salvation after telling Jesus you HATE him and asking him him to leave your life is simply proposterous my friend. Propesterous!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperFork

Superfork,

You are confused. You think that you could easily lose your salvation, but in fact, you are wrong. Read this verse:

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Now, according to you, Jesus was lying. For OBVIOUSLY, he meant no one except yourself can snatch them out of his father's hand. Right? Is that what your saying? That Jesus did not mean what he said? Friend, you need to study the Word a little longer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperFork

Excuse me? I am CONFUSED? I am still not convinced. I believe that you are full of bologna.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperFork

No need for the language SuperFork,

If you are still not convinced then please read this verse:

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is clear from this verse that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. HOW can you still say that it is possible to lose your salvation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperFork

Mr. SuperFork,

Jesus LOVES everyone. So obviously nothing can make Jesus not love anyone anymore. You are misinterpreting this verse. You are still full of bologna.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jinianne

Seems to be predominately Catholics here ......
Purgatory does not exist - it's not in the Bible.

quote:


The Curch believes that Jesus' death allows everyone the possibility of heaven, and his mercy grants forgiveness, but his justice demands that good be rewarded and evil punished - in this life or the next.

quote:

Should Joe and Max both go to heaven at the same time? Catholicism teachs no.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: jinianne

Seems to be predominately Catholics here ......
Purgatory does not exist - it's not in the Bible.

Show me where the Trinity is in the Bible then.
:)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved34

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: jinianne

Seems to be predominately Catholics here ......
Purgatory does not exist - it's not in the Bible.

Show me where the Trinity is in the Bible then.
:)

1John 5:7; Genesis 1:26 ;Mathew 28:19 ; Mathew 3:16,17 ; Colossians 2:9;John 15:26

{God the Father -Mathew 27:46; John 1:18; John 3:17; John 5:37; John 8:29}

{God the Son -Mathew 1:23 ; John 1:1-10 ; Hebrews 1:8-12; Revelation 1:8;Colossians 2:9 ; 1Timothy 3:16 ; John 9:58}

{God the Holy Spirit - Acts 5:3,4 ; Psalms 104:30; Job 33:4; Gen. 1:2,3; Heb. 3:7-11;Heb. 9:13,14} And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved34

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: jinianne

Seems to be predominately Catholics here ......
Purgatory does not exist - it's not in the Bible.

Show me where the Trinity is in the Bible then.
:)

1John 5:7; Genesis 1:26 ;Mathew 28:19 ; Mathew 3:16,17 ; Colossians 2:9;John 15:26

{God the Father -Mathew 27:46; John 1:18; John 3:17; John 5:37; John 8:29}

{God the Son -Mathew 1:23 ; John 1:1-10 ; Hebrews 1:8-12; Revelation 1:8;Colossians 2:9 ; 1Timothy 3:16 ; John 9:58}

{God the Holy Spirit - Acts 5:3,4 ; Psalms 104:30; Job 33:4; Gen. 1:2,3; Heb. 3:7-11;Heb. 9:13,14} And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

K.

here's Purgatory then.

Enjoy! :)


Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperFork
Mr. 34 knows whats going on

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daylights_56
I like your effort but it is not going to persuade anyone who has a deep seeded belief that purgatory is unscriptural. You can play bible verse ping pong all you want. In the end they have a secure feeling that there is no purgatory, just like you and I believe there is purgatory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodME_II

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daylights_56
I like your effort but it is not going to persuade anyone who has a deep seeded belief that purgatory is unscriptural. You can play bible verse ping pong all you want. In the end they have a secure feeling that there is no purgatory, just like you and I believe there is purgatory.

I think the next step then is for someone who does not accept my description of the aspect of temporal punishments to explain how justice is served by my getting to keep the car, because God forgave me. What about the poor car owner in my example?

If a Faith cannot deal with this example and Scripturally explain the ramifications and outcomes of the temporal effects of sin choices, then I am suggesting that the Faith in question needs to be challenged.

As you know, I didn't make this stuff up - it's been around as long as Chistians have been and is rooted in aspects of Judaism - what happens to the victims of our sin choices and what accountability do we have towards them?