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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 6/6/2010 11:46:59 AM
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patricius79
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Catholics believe we are saved purely by the grace of Christ to which nobody adds anthing (Lumen Gentium 62, CCC2011, Trent: Decree Justification)
As you know Ben, the Bible doesn't say that 1 Cor 3:15 or Lk 16:23, 25, 27 --or similar--are not referring to Purgatory,
And the Jews (2 Macc 12:46-48) Orthdox Jews still pray for the dead.and the early Church prayed for the dead. Cf. 2 Thes 2:15. See Augustine, Gregoy Nyssa, and all the fathers.
The Church is the "Pillar of Truth", and the Historical Church's Trinitarian fathers unanimously taught prayers for the dead and purgatory and none saw this as being wrong.
But you do not agree with the fathers because you think that we must keep teh Mosaic Law, so I know that and respectfully disagree.
It cannot deny the finished work of Christ to affirm purgatory unles 1 Cor 5:3-5 also denies the finished work of Christ. Likewise, "you need endurance to recieve what is promised". See also Heb 7:25, Heb 9:24, which says Christ STILL intercedes for us.
peace of the Son to all, and may we all get beyond our divisions, through the Holy Spirit.!
pat
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 6/6/2010 12:01:40 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 6/30/2010 2:07:49 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
What then is the validity of 1 Cor 3? If Jesus is sufficient for the faithful, what is this nonsense about "testing one's works", and "suffering a loss"? A loss of what?
Was Paul suffering from dehydration when he wrote this?
Paul, wasn't; but, apparently those who seek such an erroneous interpretation simply to bolster their presuppostions are suffering from something...possibly dehydration.
It speaks about teaching doctrine building the house of God. Nothing is said about the preacher first dying. Nothing is said about this being a place for the evangelist to go after his death. Nothing is said about this applying to those people in the church that are not evangelists building on the building of Christ's church. Nothing is said about the one doing the preaching HIMSELF being BURNED with fire.
And, NOTHING is said about appealing to some magical indulgence system that would somehow burn "temporal" sins out of the one bound for heaven.
I've seen some of the eisegetical methods used by RC to propose these passages as proof for "purgatory" - nothing could be more obvious.
It's not eisegis but simply reading verses like 1 Cor 3:15--"saved through fire"--in light of Apostolic Tradition, just as all the fathers believed in doing
One can hardly argue that we use eisegesis if they are using 2 Tim 3:16-17 to prove Sola Scriptura,
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/23/2010 2:43:53 PM
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32k
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Does Purgatory exist? The simple fact remains that there is not proof (in the full sense of the word) that it does or doesn't..
I don't see it as existing since the theif on the cross was to be with Jesus in Paradise that same day.
I was wondering about a specific verse though, that just came to mind.
Here's the verse: "But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."- Jude 1:9
Does a Catholic see that as in relation to Purgatory?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/23/2010 9:13:48 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 32k
Does Purgatory exist? The simple fact remains that there is not proof (in the full sense of the word) that it does or doesn't..
I think there is proof from the Word of God, expressed in Written and Oral Tradition (2 Thes 2:15, 2 Jn 12).
It is very clearly taught by Augustine, Gregory of Nyssa, etc and confirmed by the same Magisterium that confirmed the N.T. Canon.
quote:
I don't see it as existing since the theif on the cross was to be with Jesus in Paradise that same day .
Paradise cannot be referring to heaven here since Jesus was not in heaven until later on.
quote:
I was wondering about a specific verse though, that just came to mind.
Here's the verse: "But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."- Jude 1:9
Does a Catholic see that as in relation to Purgatory?
I wouldn't see much about purgatory there, and I've never heard any of the fathers or other Catholics seeing such a connnection.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/23/2010 9:16:02 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
Does Purgatory exist? The simple fact remains that there is not proof (in the full sense of the word) that it does or doesn't..
I also consider Luke 16:27 to be strong evidence. the rich man is in "hades" (i.e. purgatory) "in torment", yet he prays for his brothers even after being rebuffed as to his own request for comfort. a soul in hell or headed for hell wouldn't do that.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/27/2010 2:27:36 PM
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patricius79
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On another thread, a good Orthodox person had posed the issue of whether Purgatory is a "punishment".
The Catholic understanding is that "punishment" means that inner attachment to sin caused by sin. E.g a perverse attachment to drugs or whatever. The "punishment" involves having Christ free us from this attachment so as to love perfectly.
In that sense, Purgatory is a healing punishment and a mercy. "that person will suffer loss. He will be saved, but only as throguh fire" Cf. 1 Cor 3:13-15 and Gregory of Nyssa.
Peace of Jesus Christ
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/30/2010 8:58:15 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
The Catholic understanding is that "punishment" means that inner attachment to sin caused by sin. E.g a perverse attachment to drugs or whatever. The "punishment" involves having Christ free us from this attachment so as to love perfectly.
I have put up material in the past regarding the notion of "temporal punishments" as understood by Catholics. Yes, there is redemption in grace from God, because of Jesus.
...However, Jesus does not fix the broken window, or provide restitution to the victims of a robbery, or restore dignity to the victim of gossip and unfounded rumors, as exmaples. So in the Catholic sense, Jesus fixes the sin, but not necessarily the punishment - which is in most cases the temporal results of the sin choice.
_____________________________
Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 10/2/2010 4:24:01 PM
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patricius79
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yes, and contrary to all mystification, indulgences/penance are basically just God helping us to get free of these attachments to sin faster. "behold, now is the acceptable time: now is the day of salvation
http://www.catholic.com/library/faith_tracts.asp
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 10/22/2010 3:30:32 PM
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SamsonUSA
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Live Purgatory debate tonight - Friday, Oct 22 10PM EST - 7PM PST
Robert Sungenis - author and president of Catholics Apologetics International
vs.
Dr. James White - Christian Apologist and director of Alpha & Omega Ministries
Click on the link below at 10pm EST for a live feed to this 3 hour debate!
http://stream.aomin.org:8000/dl.m3u
_____________________________
"Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love, let not all the hardship seem little to you that has come upon us...." Nehemiah 9:32
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 10/23/2010 7:34:14 PM
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patricius79
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thanks Samson,
-------------------
as Scripture says,
"that person will be saved, but only as through fire" 1 Cor 3:15
and
"Jesus did many other things. If they were all to be described individually, I do not think the whole world could contain the books that would be written"
and
"and he who did not know, but acted in a way deserving a severe beating, shall be beaten only lightly...I came to cast fire on the earth" Lk 12:47-49
Cf. also 2 Thes 2:15, 2 Mac 12:44-46, Mt 5:25-26, Mt 12:32, 2 Tim 1:16-18, 1 Pt 3:18-20, 1 Jn 5:16-17, Rev 21:27, Heb 12:14:29
-------------
http://www.catholic.com/library/faith_tracts.asp
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/23/2010 8:58:39 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/17/2010 5:42:44 PM
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mj2008
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None of these verses have anything to do with purgatory. The concept of purgatory goes against what Jesus did on the cross. Why would he Die for our sins and offer us salvation through him if there is still one more step. Thank you Lord for your grace.
_____________________________
I love Jesus!!!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/28/2010 11:37:52 PM
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tony.nz
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I hate these long threads, and usually avoid them, because it is impossible to read all that has gone before, and arguments start going around in circles with no resolution or agreement.
However, I have a question, which I would like an answer to from both sides of the debate. Please do not personalise this, i promise it has nothing to do with me. It is just that I am aware that there are sins that we carry, unrepented, at most times. If we say we are without sin, we are liars. The example I put forward is simply an illustration.
Suppose a Christian believer enters into an adulterous relationship. This of course is a sin that he should cease, repent of, and confess. However, before this happens, while still carrying the guilt, whack, he gets hit by a bus.
Q1 (for no-purgatory followers) This person is a believer in Christ, forgiven of his sins, what are the eternal consequences for this particular sin? Are there any, or does he just get off scot free?
Q2 (for yes-purgatory followers) Is my understanding correct that this person would pay for this sin in purgatory? If so, why is the death of Christ on the cross insufficient for forgiveness? How exactly would this debt be paid?
I have another question for GoodMe, who keeps saying the "God does not return the car" - nobody appears to have taken him up on this little riddle, not that I have been able to read all the posts. True, God does not return the car, however, neither does the repentant thief take it with him. It appears to me that what is natural carries natural consequences, what is spiritual must carry spiritual consequences. In this case, death avoids him facing the natural consequences. Has not his repentance and confession also avoided any spiritual consequences?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/29/2010 4:32:30 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mj2008
None of these verses have anything to do with purgatory. The concept of purgatory goes against what Jesus did on the cross.
that is the protestant oral tradition, anyway
quote:
Why would he Die for our sins and offer us salvation through him if there is still one more step.
you mean like faith?
what do you think of Paul's treatments of redemptive suffering in Col 1:24, 2 Cor 1:6, 1 Cor 5:3-5, 1 Cor 3:15, and similar. Cf. also Phil 3:8,9,10,11
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/29/2010 11:12:28 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Q1 (for no-purgatory followers) This person is a believer in Christ, forgiven of his sins, what are the eternal consequences for this particular sin? Are there any, or does he just get off scot free?
This person goes to Heaven, but as one escaping a fire. 1 Cor. 3:15.
_____________________________
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 1:13:07 AM
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tony.nz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Q1 (for no-purgatory followers) This person is a believer in Christ, forgiven of his sins, what are the eternal consequences for this particular sin? Are there any, or does he just get off scot free?
This person goes to Heaven, but as one escaping a fire. 1 Cor. 3:15.
What if it is right at the end of a life, having built on the foundation laid by Christ, with Gold, silver, and precious stones?
Actually, I personally think you have taken that scripture out of context, because it speaks of works done in Christ, not sin.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 1:17:05 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
What if it is right at the end of a life, having built on the foundation laid by Christ, with Gold, silver, and precious stones?
God will give the person what he deserves. Will not the judge of all the earth do right? But if we go around saying that our sins can damn us to hell (well, I mean, they do - but I'm speaking about individual sins, not the fact that we are dead in sin without Christ), then we must also say that our good deeds can grant us access to Heaven.
quote:
Actually, I personally think you have taken that scripture out of context, because it speaks of works done in Christ, not sin.
I disagree. The passage describes all manner of works that one does after coming to Christ. Some are good, and will stand up in God's judgment. Others are not good, and will be burned away by God's judgment. How could any works done in Christ (if, by that, you mean works that Christ approves of) be found deserving of being burned by God's judging fire?
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Proud father of a brand new Fribblet!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 1:38:08 AM
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tony.nz
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OK, I think they are some good points.
I have another question though.
Is the fire God speaks of in this passage not a punishment? If so, does that not describe type of purgatory? There is no mention of how long this fire lasts, presumably all or most of us will have some stuff burned, obviously some will have more to burn than others. If it is not a punishment, then I would submit that the response you have given does not answer the question I have posed, ie, does he get off scot free?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 7:27:48 AM
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patricius79
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fribbles wrote
quote:
God will give the person what he deserves. Will not the judge of all the earth do right? But if we go around saying that our sins can damn us to hell (well, I mean, they do - but I'm speaking about individual sins, not the fact that we are dead in sin without Christ), then we must also say that our good deeds can grant us access to Heaven.
I agree there are many Biblical statements about how God will render eternal life to each according to their works. Rom 2:6-7, Rev 2:23, Mt 16:27, Lk 16:9, etc
tony wrote
quote:
Is the fire God speaks of in this passage not a punishment?
yes, since the real meaning of "punishment" is God's merciful healing of our attachments to sin.
this idea of suffering into Truth is cleary found in 1 Cor 5:3-5, e.g. cf. 1 Tim 1:20, 1 Cor3:15
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 8:28:21 AM
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faithgainer
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If you ain't right with God when you die, then you ain't never gonna be right with God.
I know that the Catholics and Mormons believe there in a shot at getting right after death, but that is wishful thinking and is not supported by Scripture.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 10:58:53 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Is the fire God speaks of in this passage not a punishment?
I don't think so, though I can see how some would view it that way.
quote:
I would submit that the response you have given does not answer the question I have posed, ie, does he get off scot free?
I've answered as best I could. There will be consequences, but those consequences do not entail spending hell in eternity.
_____________________________
Proud father of a brand new Fribblet!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 1:11:09 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
I know that the Catholics and Mormons believe there in a shot at getting right after death, but that is wishful thinking and is not supported by Scripture.
Mormons may believe this (I don't know for sure) but no Catholic I have ever known believes this.
_____________________________
Fasten your seat belts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 2:34:33 PM
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tony.nz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Is the fire God speaks of in this passage not a punishment?
I don't think so, though I can see how some would view it that way.
quote:
I would submit that the response you have given does not answer the question I have posed, ie, does he get off scot free?
I've answered as best I could. There will be consequences, but those consequences do not entail spending hell in eternity.
Thank you for the honest response. I certainly would not see this person as spending hell in eternity, because we all struggle with sin, and are going through a process to become like him. If the consequence for undealt with sin, for a Christian, was an eternal hell, that would be a major problem for most of us.
To be honest, I am struggling to see things as black and white in terms of life after death (not if, more how it works). I think scripture is clear that some will spend eternity in the lake of fire, and some will spend it in God's new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem, but I am struggling to draw firm conclusions beyond that.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 2:36:13 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
If the consequence for undealt with sin, for a Christian, was an eternal hell, that would be a major problem for most of us.
Agreed!
quote:
To be honest, I am struggling to see things as black and white in terms of life after death (not if, more how it works).
What do you think of the concept of different degrees of reward (in Heaven) and punishment (in hell) based on earthly conduct?
_____________________________
Proud father of a brand new Fribblet!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 4:44:33 PM
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faithgainer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
I know that the Catholics and Mormons believe there in a shot at getting right after death, but that is wishful thinking and is not supported by Scripture.
Mormons may believe this (I don't know for sure) but no Catholic I have ever known believes this.
Then what is the purpose of purgatory?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 12/30/2010 5:13:25 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
If you ain't right with God when you die, then you ain't never gonna be right with God.
I agree. the issue is how right. in other words, many people die as faithful Christians, but with some attachments to sin yet.
Catholic apologists can plausibly bring forth much evidence from Scripture and Tradition (2 Thes 2:15) for the idea of purgatory.
e.g. the Rich man in hades (purgatory) who loves his brothers, and countless others
and nobody can really contradict them without going beyond Scripture, asserting the faith alone oral tradition, and implicitly doubting the N.T. Canon, among other things.
in other words, I find the evidence to remove any doubt about the fact that people do go to hades to complete their unfinished business of love
here's a good link on some of the evidence
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/saints-purgatory-penance-index-page.html
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