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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/26/2008 7:46:40 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 166
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". And that's that....
You are assuming that people in Purgatory are not in the presense of the Lord: You assume wrong.
Does anyone one know that the word "Seraphim" actually means "the burning ones"? God is a consuming fire, and any impurity would burn away in a flash in God's presence. That what "purgation" is, the purging by fire of all imperfections.
Oh yes, those in Purgatory are VERY MUCH in the presence of the Lord.
(edited tos 6)
< Message edited by Kath -- 7/26/2008 10:05:59 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/27/2008 2:41:10 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". And that's that....
You are assuming that people in Purgatory are not in the presense of the Lord: You assume wrong.
...Oh yes, those in Purgatory are VERY MUCH in the presence of the Lord.
TCC:
You are assuming that Purgatory even exists. Yet you will not find a single Scripture that mentions this mythical place. And then you are compounding your error by suggesting that God is also in Purgatory! Looks like Catholic myth-making has no limits.
Purgatory is only the tip of the iceberg of false teachings upon which souls are being led into error and delusion by the RCC.
We can be thankful that we have the written Word of God to rely on. And we can also be thankful that the Lord Himself is our Righteousness, and we are complete in Him.
But I do not expect you to understand these very basic truths.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/28/2008 3:00:50 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
The fact is that when you die you are still a sinner and imperfect, yet "nothing unclean" can enter heaven. Nope, the fact is what the Bible says the fact is - and that fact is:
1John 1:7 ....and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
So, you are saying you are PERFECT right now? You are not a sinner? The spirit of every true believer is PERFECT. Of course, his flesh is not until that last day when it will be resurrected a glorified body. It is for this reason the spirit of a true believer, when he dies, goes immediately into the presence of God in heaven .
quote:
You have an uncanny knack for quoting scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. You would be hard-pressed to rationally explain how a passage which states that Christ has cleansed the true believer of all sin is not germaine to a discussion of "purgatory".
quote:
The fact is, even though "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin",.... Apparently, since you go on to discuss 1John 1:7, you DO think it gemaine to the topic. So, why the contrariness?
quote:
you are STILL a sinner right now, and you cannot enter heaven while still imperfect. No, the spirit - the new man - does not commit sin. This is precisely why it immediately goes to heaven. You give little credence to the work of the Holy Spirit as He raises the spirit of man to new life - a new heavenly life.
quote:
Even though "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin", you are still growing in holiness and sanctification (although thats hard to see from your posts). Generally, it is a good idea not to accuse others of what you yourself are guilty...you might want to give that some thought.
Why so handily dismiss the sacrifice of Christ with "even though"? While it is true that a child of God continues to grow in sanctification, it is definitely not true that man is capable of paying for his own sins as RC teaches.
quote:
Purgatory is the final stage of that growth. You cannot enter heaven while imperfect, and at the moment of death, you are still imperfect. As I said you totally underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart of man just as you underestimate the work of Christ on the Cross.
quote:
Thats that. Nope, the moment of death is the time "that's that".
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.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/28/2008 3:04:10 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
The fact is that when you die you are still a sinner and imperfect, yet "nothing unclean" can enter heaven. Nope, the fact is what the Bible says the fact is - and that fact is:
1John 1:7 ....and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Good enough for God, not the RCC !
I am sure God is offended by the human
notion that His Son's Blood is insufficient.
Of course, there's those indulgences  That's a really serious flaw in such a doctrine, one of them, anyway. The blood of Jesus is simply not effective. Oh, RC will hem and haw that it is. Still, it cannot be denied that God says Christ paid for ALL sin. Still, RC says: "no, He most certainly did not pay for all; we or others pay for "some" of our sins - those pesky venial sins". Not to mention that ridiculous rationale of temporal effects.
quote:
BUT- absent from the body is _______?
Present with The Lord according to Paul.
Paul also says the change will in the
twinkling of an eye. No purgatory then.
Perhaps the RCC should read 1Cor 15 !!!
Well, we do know that Scripture doesn't stand in the way of RC doctrines.
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.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/28/2008 3:06:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". And that's that....
You are assuming that people in Purgatory are not in the presense of the Lord: You assume wrong.
Does anyone one know that the word "Seraphim" actually means "the burning ones"? God is a consuming fire, and any impurity would burn away in a flash in God's presence. That what "purgation" is, the purging by fire of all imperfections.
Oh yes, those in Purgatory are VERY MUCH in the presence of the Lord.
(edited tos 6)
If it were actually true that: "any impurity would burn away in a flash in God's presence" why, oh why, are people spending time in purgatory? Why are they not cleansed "in a flash" as you say? Why, oh why, does it take indulgences to get them out if as you say they are cleansed "in a flash"?
Hopefully, you don't seriously think that "God is a consuming fire" is a literal description of God's being?
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.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/28/2008 3:09:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
We can be thankful that we have the written Word of God to rely on. And we can also be thankful that the Lord Himself is our Righteousness, and we are complete in Him.
Can we ever! God is so clear in Scripture about how "word of mouth" results in lies. We know Christ's opinion on "traditions" - He railed against them so often. Peter also tells us that he wrote down the truth so that we might always have it with us.
And as we search the truth that Peter and the other penman of Scripture wrote, we find they never made the slightest allusion to a "purgatory". In fact, we find they taught the exact opposite - they insisted a true believer goes to be with God at the moment of death.
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.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/28/2008 3:31:11 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
For the Christian Roman Catholics and with the help of our Christian brother Kelman's insight, what does this scripture teach us about life after death. The Way the Truth and the Life is speaking to us who are far off too.....Acts 2:39 Peter, I doubt the Christian Roman Catholics would agree I have any insight whatsoever:) I think Christ is telling us in vs 21 "Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come." The Pharisees and the rest of man look for their salvation where it cannot be found so therefore they will die in their sins.
In vs 28 "So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be ....." Christ tells them some will come to know Him after they play their part in crucifying Him.
Reading over the rest of John 8, I'm not seeing anything in particular that can help us with this idea of "purgatory" or life after death. Is there a certain passage you have in mind?
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.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/29/2008 6:40:28 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 2195
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Yet you will not find a single Scripture that mentions this mythical place. 1 Cor 3 describes the process of testing and purifying the soul, as if by fire, based on the work of the soul. Is Paul leading us to error and delusion?
That's what we are talking about here. This whole thread is a discussion of it.
I can also cite Matt and Luke ("...and you will not be released until the last farthing is paid...") - so that's multiple Scriptural references of the need to serve temporal punishments, and to seek the forgiveness of those we have offended in this life, before we pass and can do nothing more about it.
Will three do it, or do you require more...?
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Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/30/2008 1:34:32 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Yet you will not find a single Scripture that mentions this mythical place. 1 Cor 3 describes the process of testing and purifying the soul, as if by fire, based on the work of the soul. Is Paul leading us to error and delusion?
That's what we are talking about here. This whole thread is a discussion of it.
I can also cite Matt and Luke ("...and you will not be released until the last farthing is paid...") - so that's multiple Scriptural references of the need to serve temporal punishments, and to seek the forgiveness of those we have offended in this life, before we pass and can do nothing more about it.
Will three do it, or do you require more...?
Doghouse:
Misunderstood, misrepresented and misapplied Scriptures do not count.
A. In 1 Cor. 3:9-15, Paul is describing the judgment of the Christian's WORKS and consequent rewards, not of his soul and it's "purification": "If any man's WORK shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: yet he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (v. 16). This is not a reference to "temporal punishment" but the testing of works by metaphorical "fire".
Just as wood, hay, stubble, gold, and silver and precious stones respond differently when put through fire, the Christian's works will be tested or "assayed" in a similar fashion, and what remains praiseworthy will be like silver, gold and precious stones which cannot be destroyed by fire. Those works will receive rewards.
B. Mt. 5:25,26 (Lk. 12:58,59) speak about judgment and justice delivered by strict earthly judges, the point being that it is preferable to settle a matter out of court than seek justice through the court system.
This illustrates the fact that God is the strictest of judges, and that if we seek justice at His hands, we will pay dearly for our sins. However, if we cry out to God for His mercy, He will indeed pardon on the basis of the finsihed work of Christ. These passages have nothing whatsoever to say regarding a Purgatory!
As you can see, the RCC has a penchant for misapplying the Scriptures to justifiy their false dogmas. Therefore, once again, there is not a single Scripture in the Bible that even hints at Purgatory.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/30/2008 7:30:07 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 2195
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
This is not a reference to "temporal punishment" but the testing of works by metaphorical "fire". Temporal punishments is that which results from our actions. If I have to go to jail because I robbed a bank, the temporal punishment of jail time is the result of the action of robbing the bank. One is the result of the other. I don't see how you are making a distinction here that temporal punishments result from something like bad luck.
quote:
Those works will receive rewards. So - heaven is a place of relative achievement. Benny Hinn and Joyce Myers will be on the second row, whereas I have to be content with a nosebleed seat up in the rafters...is this how it works???
I would think that infinite joy in the eternal presence of our infinitely loving creator would be infinitely great. There is no relativity with infinity. The only number equal to infinity is infinity - everyone therefore is the same, if you can get in the door. The relativity to which you are referring has to be something other than heaven, if heaven is equal for all. The "reward" to which you speak is less purification, less testing, less "assaying" - all of which are temporal activities, not timeless or eternal. This happens in a place outside the infinite joy of heaven - still in the presence of God. We Catholics refer to this place as "purgatory" - the place where the soul of the heaven bound is purified and where temporal punishments are served out, so that the purified pristine soul may enter heaven with all the other purified pristine souls of equal quality - receiving equal joy.
You are reading back to me the Catholic theology on this - there is no other way to resolve it, given Paul's descriptions and instruction to us in 1 Cor 3.
quote:
the point being that it is preferable to settle a matter out of court than seek justice through the court system. I believe this to be a bit of a stretch. These Scriptures are telling us to get along with our neighbors and to seek their pardon for our trespasses while we are still here and can do something about it. If we leave this earth and can no longer take care of our own matters in this regard, time and grace will take care of them, if the offended can be moved to forgive. Better to take care of this now, as we are not "released" until justice is restored. This is indeed describing how Catholics believe the purification of the soul goes down. You are scoping the discussion quite literally and more narrowly than the Scriptural instruction actually is.
quote:
As you can see, the RCC has a penchant for misapplying the Scriptures to justify their false dogmas. Is too...is not...is too...is not I am finding your conclusion neither substantiated, nor authoritative. I'll just stick to what is being said in Scriptures here, and be on my merry way with it.
Your notion of relative reward in heaven is particularly difficult to resolve using any sense of Scriptures, or even some basic tenants of simple justice (its not the first time I've heard this argument). It says that God is not infinite, that the joy of heaven is not infinite, that if some are rewarded, the lack of reward relative to that is in effect punishment of some. We are punished by and with heaven and our standing in it.
Sorry - that does not compute.
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Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2008 1:44:42 PM
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WesP
Posts: 773
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
Your notion of relative reward in heaven is particularly difficult to resolve using any sense of Scriptures, or even some basic tenants of simple justice
Does this mean that we will be equal to the Elders in heaven? Will we be equal in reward and placement with the Apostles? Just curious how this is reconciled. Thanks!
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2008 6:11:53 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 2195
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Does this mean that we will be equal to the Elders in heaven? Will we be equal in reward and placement with the Apostles? Just curious how this is reconciled. Thanks! The Church instructs that very special joys are granted to the martyrs, doctors, and virgins, a special proof of victories won in time of trial (Revelation 7:11; Daniel 12:3; Revelation 14:3). Hence theologians speak of three particular crowns, aureolas, or glorioles, by which these three classes of blessed souls are accidentally honoured beyond the rest. Aureola is a diminutive of aurea, i.e. aurea corona (golden crown). These are categorized as "accidental beatitudes".
We do not envy these "accidental" rewards for those to whom God grants them, because the fully sanctified soul is incapable of such envy.
I would place these in relative context of what I was speaking of earlier - this instruction does not tell us that the soul that perishes in faith, but with venial sin, is condemned, nor does it teach that same soul is immediately admitted to heaven. It tells us that while heaven is a place where some are rewarded more than others, this is only after the soul is tested and prepared for entry into it. And it does tell us that while there are greater rewards for some (matryrs, doctors, virgins and those tested in times of trials) than perhaps us, we may not be aware of it or we may not be affected by it one way or the other.
In re-reading the post, I see what Ezra was getting at.
I am satisfied that the just judgement of God is what we all have to depend on - and not the interpretations or sole discernment of people banging away on keyboards on the forums at Christianity.com.
Here is a link to what I believe to be an authoritative article about what the Roman Catholic Church instructs us about what lies beyond the pearly gates...Heaven - Catholic Encyclopedia Too big to post, but read away - I lifted the first paragraph of this post from it.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 8/1/2008 6:18:01 PM >
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Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2008 7:30:51 PM
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WesP
Posts: 773
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
It tells us that while heaven is a place where some are rewarded more than others
This is what I thought was being argued against. Thanks for the clarification, Doghouse!
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/6/2008 8:24:47 AM
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haggismuncher
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Purgatory does exist - it contains various levels - the level just below Heaven is not too difficult for those souls there because the pain and suffering is not too great
IF OUR SOULS R BLACKENED AT THE HOUR OF JUDGMENT THEN IF WE ACCEPT GOD'S FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS THEN WE WILL B SENT 2 PURGATORY - A PLACE WHERE YOUR SOUL IS CLEANSED FROM THE BLACKNESS OF SIN THROUGH PAIN AND SUFFERING B 4 U CAN GO 2 HEAVEN
WE CAN ALSO HELP THESE SOULS BY PRAYING 4 THEM AND FASTING - GOD SEES US DOING THIS IN OUR FAITH AND BELIEF AND ALLOWS SOULS TO RISE UP THROUGH THE VARIOUS LEVELS OF PURGATORY TOWARDS HEAVEN - THUS EASING THEIR OWN SUFFERING - THE LEVEL JUST BELOW HEAVEN IS EASIEST IN TERMS OF PAIN AND SUFFERING AND SOULS R ABLE 2 PRAY FOR THEMSELVES HERE B COS THE PAIN IS NOT 2 GREAT
THE LEVEL JUST ABOVE HELL IS VERY PAINFUL AND THE SUFFERING VERY GREAT - SO THESE SOULS CANNOT PRAY 4 THEMSELVES AS THEY R IN 2 MUCH PAIN TO DO SO
MANY PEOPLE THESE DAYS GO TO PURGATORY B COS THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD DURING THEIR LIFE - ONCE IN PURGATORY YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITY 2 ATONE 4 YOUR SINS - B COS U NOW KNOW THAT GOD EXISTS - BUT WHILST STILL HERE ON THE EARTH WE CAN ATONE 4 OUR SINS BY PRAYING AND FASTING AND GOING 2 MASS AND CONFESSION
THE SOULS IN PURGATORY DO NOT WISH 2 RETURN 2 EARTH B COS THEY HAVE THE CERTITUDE OF KNOWING THAT 1 DAY THEY WILL B IN HEAVEN WITH GOD FOREVER - SO THIS JOY FAR EXCEEDS THEIR PAIN AND SUFFERING AND SO THEY ENDURE IT - WE CAN HELP THEM - PRAY AND FAST PEOPLE AND U WILL HELP THEM
a woman named Maria Simma wrote a book called "The Holy Souls of purgatory"
in it she explained how 1 night in 1940 whilst she was asleep in bed she woke and saw someone at the end of her bed - she told them 2 go away - but this continued for a few nights - she explained this 2 her priest - he told her 2 ask them what they wanted - she asked them and this soul said "have 3 masses said 4 me and i will be delivered"
having masses said in the name of a loved 1 who has died will also help them 2 rise up 2 heaven - b cos the mass is the greatest of our prayers
another time a soul asked her "if you take my pain for just 3 hours u will help me a great deal"
so she took the pain and suffering of this soul for 3 hours and after it she said it felt like 3 days - the holy soul told her that she had just saved this soul 20 years in purgatory - our sufferings here on earth mean more to God than the suffering in purgatory b cos the souls in purgatory are certain of God's existence b cos they have at the moment of death seen His great light
U CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN UNLESS YOUR SOUL IS 100% CLEAN FROM THE BLACKNESS OF SIN
IF U DO NOT ACCEPT GOD'S FORGIVENESS AT THE HOUR OF JUDGMENT THEN U CONDEMN YOURSELF 2 HELL
this is what satan wants u 2 do
so u c it is necessary to make up 4 your sins whilst still alive on earth - and u can then go straight 2 heaven
in hell people b come like animals after they have been consumed by the great fire - they perpetually curse and insult God so they never get the chance 2 leave - this is what satan wants - God does not want this 4 u - so u must have faith and belief in Him and try not to sin in your life b cos it offends Him deeply
u c satan does not want the world 2 know these things - it is the truth - b cos then he will not have souls to torture forever in hell
DO NOT BECOME ANOTHER 1 OF HIS VICTIMS - HE IS HAPPY WITH THE NUMBER OF SOULS HE CLAIMS EVERY HOUR
WHEN WE DIE THE GREATEST NUMBER OF PEOPLE GO 2 PURGATORY - THE NEXT GREATEST NUMBER GO 2 HELL - ONLY A FEW THESE DAYS GO STRAIGHT 2 HEAVEN
THIS IS WHY GOD SENDS MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS 2 THE EARTH - B COS 2 MANY PEOPLE R BEING LOST 2 THE FIRES OF HELL - FEW R LISTENING 2 HER MESSAGE - SHE DOES IT OUT OF LOVE 4 US - SHE DOES NOT WANT THIS 2 HAPPEN 2 US
SHE SAID "IF I COULD SAY ANYTHING IT WOULD BE - PLEASE BE CONVERTED - NO PAIN OR SUFFERING IS 2 GREAT FOR ME 2 ENDURE IN ORDER TO SAVE SOULS - THANK ALL OF MY CHILDREN WHO HAVE PRAYED TO GOD - YOU CANNOT IMAGINE WHAT THE ETERNAL FATHER WILL SEND FROM HEAVEN AS PUNISHMENT 4 THE SINS OF MANKIND - I WILL PRAY 2 MY SON JESUS NOT 2 PUNISH THE WORLD BUT U MUST B CONVERTED FOR THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL"
SHE PRAYS EVERY MORNING AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS ON MT. KRIZEVAC IN MEDJUGORJE (CROSS MOUNTAIN) - WHEREVER SHE OR HER SON JESUS TURN UP - SATAN TURNS UP ALSO IN ORDER TO RUIN AND DESTROY HER MESSAGE OF PEACE AND LOVE FOR GOD - SATAN DOES NOT WANT PEACE AND LOVE IN THE WORLD - HE ONLY WANTS PAIN AND SUFFERING
a long long time ago satan went to the throne of God and he argued that when things r going well in people's lives they have faith and belief in God - but when things take a turn 4 the worse in people's lives they turn away from God and blame Him
God agreed with this and so allowed the devil 1 century of time in which he could weild greater authority over the earth - the devil picked the 20th century - and tens of millions of people died in terrible wars in this time - Mary Herself confirmed this 2 the visionaries at Medjugorje - also a former POPE IN THE LATE 19TH CENTURY HAD A VISION OF THIS AND IN THE VISION HE OVERHEARD THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN GOD AND SATAN
satan also boasted that if given enough time he could drag all humanity to hell
PLEASE I URGE U - REPENT AND COME BACK 2 GOD 2 DAY AND SAVE YOUR SOUL FROM THESE TERRIBLE THINGS
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i am who i am and i will be what i will be
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/6/2008 8:29:20 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 1552
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: haggismuncher
Purgatory does exist...
IMHO, there's not a shred of believable biblical evidence to support that statement.
Also: This is not a chat room, please drop the teenage text shorthand. Thanks.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/6/2008 8:37:42 AM
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haggismuncher
Posts: 2
Joined: 8/2/2008
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all of heaven and earth is not contained in the bible
if every word that God Jesus and Mary ever spoke was written in books - the whole world could not contain the books
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i am who i am and i will be what i will be
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/6/2008 8:46:47 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 1552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: haggismuncher
all of heaven and earth is not contained in the bible
if every word that God Jesus and Mary ever spoke was written in books - the whole world could not contain the books
That's very pretty - and is used by all sorts of cults to justify all manner of heresy and false teachings. If it is of eternal significance, you can trust that God had it recorded in the Holy Bible. Anything else is tradition of man (check out Jesus' strong rejection of that), fairy tales, and falsehoods.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/6/2008 10:38:27 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 8283
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: haggismuncher
Purgatory does exist - it contains various levels - the level just below Heaven is not too difficult for those souls there because the pain and suffering is not too great
IF OUR SOULS R BLACKENED AT THE HOUR OF JUDGMENT THEN IF WE ACCEPT GOD'S FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS THEN WE WILL B SENT 2 PURGATORY - A PLACE WHERE YOUR SOUL IS CLEANSED FROM THE BLACKNESS OF SIN THROUGH PAIN AND SUFFERING B 4 U CAN GO 2 HEAVEN
WE CAN ALSO HELP THESE SOULS BY PRAYING 4 THEM AND FASTING - GOD SEES US DOING THIS IN OUR FAITH AND BELIEF AND ALLOWS SOULS TO RISE UP THROUGH THE VARIOUS LEVELS OF PURGATORY TOWARDS HEAVEN - THUS EASING THEIR OWN SUFFERING - THE LEVEL JUST BELOW HEAVEN IS EASIEST IN TERMS OF PAIN AND SUFFERING AND SOULS R ABLE 2 PRAY FOR THEMSELVES HERE B COS THE PAIN IS NOT 2 GREAT
THE LEVEL JUST ABOVE HELL IS VERY PAINFUL AND THE SUFFERING VERY GREAT - SO THESE SOULS CANNOT PRAY 4 THEMSELVES AS THEY R IN 2 MUCH PAIN TO DO SO
MANY PEOPLE THESE DAYS GO TO PURGATORY B COS THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD DURING THEIR LIFE - ONCE IN PURGATORY YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITY 2 ATONE 4 YOUR SINS - B COS U NOW KNOW THAT GOD EXISTS - BUT WHILST STILL HERE ON THE EARTH WE CAN ATONE 4 OUR SINS BY PRAYING AND FASTING AND GOING 2 MASS AND CONFESSION
THE SOULS IN PURGATORY DO NOT WISH 2 RETURN 2 EARTH B COS THEY HAVE THE CERTITUDE OF KNOWING THAT 1 DAY THEY WILL B IN HEAVEN WITH GOD FOREVER - SO THIS JOY FAR EXCEEDS THEIR PAIN AND SUFFERING AND SO THEY ENDURE IT - WE CAN HELP THEM - PRAY AND FAST PEOPLE AND U WILL HELP THEM
a woman named Maria Simma wrote a book called "The Holy Souls of purgatory"
in it she explained how 1 night in 1940 whilst she was asleep in bed she woke and saw someone at the end of her bed - she told them 2 go away - but this continued for a few nights - she explained this 2 her priest - he told her 2 ask them what they wanted - she asked them and this soul said "have 3 masses said 4 me and i will be delivered"
having masses said in the name of a loved 1 who has died will also help them 2 rise up 2 heaven - b cos the mass is the greatest of our prayers
another time a soul asked her "if you take my pain for just 3 hours u will help me a great deal"
so she took the pain and suffering of this soul for 3 hours and after it she said it felt like 3 days - the holy soul told her that she had just saved this soul 20 years in purgatory - our sufferings here on earth mean more to God than the suffering in purgatory b cos the souls in purgatory are certain of God's existence b cos they have at the moment of death seen His great light
U CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN UNLESS YOUR SOUL IS 100% CLEAN FROM THE BLACKNESS OF SIN
IF U DO NOT ACCEPT GOD'S FORGIVENESS AT THE HOUR OF JUDGMENT THEN U CONDEMN YOURSELF 2 HELL
this is what satan wants u 2 do
so u c it is necessary to make up 4 your sins whilst still alive on earth - and u can then go straight 2 heaven
in hell people b come like animals after they have been consumed by the great fire - they perpetually curse and insult God so they never get the chance 2 leave - this is what satan wants - God does not want this 4 u - so u must have faith and belief in Him and try not to sin in your life b cos it offends Him deeply
u c satan does not want the world 2 know these things - it is the truth - b cos then he will not have souls to torture forever in hell
DO NOT BECOME ANOTHER 1 OF HIS VICTIMS - HE IS HAPPY WITH THE NUMBER OF SOULS HE CLAIMS EVERY HOUR
WHEN WE DIE THE GREATEST NUMBER OF PEOPLE GO 2 PURGATORY - THE NEXT GREATEST NUMBER GO 2 HELL - ONLY A FEW THESE DAYS GO STRAIGHT 2 HEAVEN
THIS IS WHY GOD SENDS MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS 2 THE EARTH - B COS 2 MANY PEOPLE R BEING LOST 2 THE FIRES OF HELL - FEW R LISTENING 2 HER MESSAGE - SHE DOES IT OUT OF LOVE 4 US - SHE DOES NOT WANT THIS 2 HAPPEN 2 US
SHE SAID "IF I COULD SAY ANYTHING IT WOULD BE - PLEASE BE CONVERTED - NO PAIN OR SUFFERING IS 2 GREAT FOR ME 2 ENDURE IN ORDER TO SAVE SOULS - THANK ALL OF MY CHILDREN WHO HAVE PRAYED TO GOD - YOU CANNOT IMAGINE WHAT THE ETERNAL FATHER WILL SEND FROM HEAVEN AS PUNISHMENT 4 THE SINS OF MANKIND - I WILL PRAY 2 MY SON JESUS NOT 2 PUNISH THE WORLD BUT U MUST B CONVERTED FOR THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL"
SHE PRAYS EVERY MORNING AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS ON MT. KRIZEVAC IN MORTGAGORS (CROSS MOUNTAIN) - WHEREVER SHE OR HER SON JESUS TURN UP - SATAN TURNS UP ALSO IN ORDER TO RUIN AND DESTROY HER MESSAGE OF PEACE AND LOVE FOR GOD - SATAN DOES NOT WANT PEACE AND LOVE IN THE WORLD - HE ONLY WANTS PAIN AND SUFFERING
a long long time ago satan went to the throne of God and he argued that when things r going well in people's lives they have faith and belief in God - but when things take a turn 4 the worse in people's lives they turn away from God and blame Him
God agreed with this and so allowed the devil 1 century of time in which he could weild greater authority over the earth - the devil picked the 20th century - and tens of millions of people died in terrible wars in this time - Mary Herself confirmed this 2 the visionaries at MORTGAGORS - also a former POPE IN THE LATE 19TH CENTURY HAD A VISION OF THIS AND IN THE VISION HE OVERHEARD THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN GOD AND SATAN
satan also boasted that if given enough time he could drag all humanity to hell
PLEASE I URGE U - REPENT AND COME BACK 2 GOD 2 DAY AND SAVE YOUR SOUL FROM THESE TERRIBLE THINGS
Please ease up on the liberal use of all caps. In the cyberworld it is equivelent to yelling. Not acceptable.
Thanks!
_____________________________
Fred "Fritz" Alberti
Director of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/6/2008 3:09:53 PM
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WesP
Posts: 773
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
IF U DO NOT ACCEPT GOD'S FORGIVENESS AT THE HOUR OF JUDGMENT THEN U CONDEMN YOURSELF 2 HELL
I am not going to address all the supposition and extras that you have posited as truth, but I need to ask a question about this. It has always been my understanding that judgment comes after death. If you do not choose God before the first death, the second death is a guarantee. So, what is this acceptance after death? There are no second chances after the grave.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/11/2008 5:15:29 PM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: haggismuncher
all of heaven and earth is not contained in the bible
if every word that God Jesus and Mary ever spoke was written in books - the whole world could not contain the books
You do realize you simply made that up, don't you? The passage which you may be referring to is John 21:25 which speaks only about the DEEDS Christ did - not His words.
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
As for any other "words" of Christ or the Apostles:
We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/12/2008 6:47:57 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 2195
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
PLEASE I URGE U - REPENT AND COME BACK 2 GOD 2 DAY AND SAVE YOUR SOUL FROM THESE TERRIBLE THINGS Ayyyye...I just love a proper Scotsman....welcome laddy and may God bless and keep you.
I can't say that I disagree with a thing that you have said above.
quote:
It has always been my understanding that judgment comes after death. If you do not choose God before the first death, the second death is a guarantee. So, what is this acceptance after death? There are no second chances after the grave. Purgatory is for those who have accepted faith, but still have the effect of sin, temporal punishments, the stain of sin upon their soul - to be worked out, purified and purged.
Those who do not accept faith before they die condemn themselves to an eternity without God in their rejection of Him and His promises.
I believe that is being said above. Try reading the post with a Scottish accent, with particular emphasis on the all-caps.
_____________________________
Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/20/2008 6:29:09 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 33
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
Status: offline
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Purgatory? I see where some get the idea, but if I read on, I find it a difficult place to define or concept to defend.
Jesus told the theif, "Today you will be with me in paradise". Paradise sounds more like heaven than "purgatory". John wrote "...that whoever believes in Him shall have eternla life." All through the New Testament, the promise to those who are "saved" is eternal life NOW, not sometime in the future.
Peter comments in his letters that a day is like a thousand and a thousand days are like one in eternity. Based on that, I will take the liberty to suggest that when we die, we will find ourselves arriving instantly at the same time as all of the other saints because time only exists on this earth, not in eternity.
The idea of purgatory, suggests a "holding place". Why do we need to be "put on hold"? If we have Jesus, we have eternal life. If we don't have Jesus, no purgatory is going to give us opportunity to repent. Scripture is clear on that.
May God prepare you for eternal life in Heaven with Jesus without any doubt or detours on your journey.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/21/2008 6:47:29 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 2195
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
The idea of purgatory, suggests a "holding place". Why do we need to be "put on hold"? If we have Jesus, we have eternal life. If we don't have Jesus, no purgatory is going to give us opportunity to repent. Scripture is clear on that. What then is the validity of 1 Cor 3? If Jesus is sufficient for the faithful, what is this nonsense about "testing one's works", and "suffering a loss"? A loss of what?
Was Paul suffering from dehydration when he wrote this?
_____________________________
Do we honestly believe that the firefighter, who gave up his life on Sept. 11, 2001 on his 10th trip back into WTC Tower 1, saving civilians...is eternally separated from God, just because he never set foot in a Church, or cracked open a Bible?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/21/2008 5:56:00 PM
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loco79
Posts: 43
Joined: 6/18/2008
Status: offline
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"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:32)
This implies that there are some sins that can be forgiven after death. Purification after death is what we call Purgatory.
"May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus. "(2 Timothy 1:16-18)
Here Paul prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus. Again, if Onesiphorus were in heaven, he would not be in need of prayers, and if he were in hell, prayer would be pointless. This implies that Paul believed in Purgatory
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