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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/5/2005 8:34:28 AM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
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I heard this story trying to explain purgatory to non-Catholics, I can't remember it exactly but you should get the gist.
Let's say you broke a window in a church, the priest catches you, you apologize & ask for forgiveness. The priest says ok, you think all is fine but when you try to leave he says, we still have a problem. The window is still broken, what shall we do about that. You offer to work at the church to repay the cost of the window. However, there is still the extra time & effort to fix the window, clean up the mess, etc. that takes time away from other tasks.
Were you forgiven for breaking the window? Yes.
Was that enough to absolve you from every effect of breaking the window? No, it didn't change the fact that the window needed repaired.
What the story attempts to illustrate is that even though a sin may be forgiven, there are far reaching effects of that sin for which you are accountable. If you sin against your wife, neighbor etc. you can be forgiven but the effect of your sin impacts their life negatively. That's the temporal punishment for sin that you must have resolved before entering heaven, as nothing unclean shall enter.
For more check out CCC 1030-1032
Peace.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/5/2005 9:13:53 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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Always good to know that the horrible death Christ suffered did not pay the price of my sin in full.
*shakes head sadly*
_____________________________
Fred "Fritz" Alberti
Director of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/5/2005 12:26:19 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
Always good to know that the horrible death Christ suffered did not pay the price of my sin in full.
*shakes head sadly*
Dear Fritz,
Don't be sad. All metaphors are imperfect.
On the Feast of the Ascension
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/9/2005 6:26:06 PM
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ChesterDash
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praise God for Luther and the reformation!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/9/2005 9:05:00 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
praise God for Luther and the reformation!
Dear Chester,
Yes, indeed! It made the Catholics mad enough to get our act together!
On the Feast of Blessed Thomas Pickering
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/9/2005 11:04:10 PM
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ChesterDash
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um just what are you talking about? Getting your act together? The Catholic church has a long way to catch up.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 4:22:09 AM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
um just what are you talking about? Getting your act together? The Catholic church has a long way to catch up.
Dear Chester,
Don't we all. Your point?
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 9:10:39 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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This topic is about Purgatory and life after death.
Please stay on topic.
Thanks!
_____________________________
Fred "Fritz" Alberti
Director of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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Recap - 5/10/2005 4:41:48 PM
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Lurker
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Hrmm, where were we then...*tries to get back to topic*
Let's see. Frtitz was seemingly confused over the issue of how it seems that Jesus' death on the Cross didn't cover all of our sins right?
Well, the thing is, it did. It's because of Jesus' crucifixion that we are able to enjoy the fruits of eternal life.
However, while Jesus' crucifixion did open the door to salvation, we are able to close it on ourselves through sin. Fortunately, Jesus is patient enough to allow us to recieve salvation over and over through His ONE sacrifice.
Now, we can only be baptized once. Baptism makes a new creature in Christ. However, because we're human, we can still fall into sin and throw away the wonderous gift God has given us through the Passion of the Son. But Our Lord is Love and Mercy, He freely offers us salvation again and again. Thus we can repent of our sins and be rejoined again to the body of Christ through the sacrament of reconciliation. :)
Now to finally get to purgatory.... If we are still trapped by venial sins when we pass away, we wwill enter Heven, but only as through a fire (as Paul wrote). This fire then, this cleansing is known as "purgatory."
This is very obviously a VERY generalized explanation. It does show (I think) how the various sacraments are intertwined. You can't fully understand the concept of why we need purgatory if you don't understand the concepts behind the sacrament of reconciliation, and if you don't understand the Catholic view of how salvation is not just a single event, but an ongoing process. They're all dependent on each other.
Anyways, I'm short on time, hence this disjointed post... :) I'll try to post a more in depth defense of the concept of purgatory later if I have time tonight. :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 5:07:40 PM
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ChesterDash
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This topic is about Purgatory and life after death.
Please stay on topic.
Thanks!
oops sorry! 
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 5:18:58 PM
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ChesterDash
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.... Luther cited the Popes immortality declaration, as among " THOSE MONSTROUS OPINIONS TO BE FOUND IN THE ROMAN DUNGHILL OF DECRETALS"
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/luther-tyndale.htm
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 5:56:37 PM
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GoodME
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dona Nobis Pacem
I heard this story trying to explain purgatory to non-Catholics, I can't remember it exactly but you should get the gist.
You got it right. I use the example that Jesus does not give the car back (many from Christianity.com are tired of hearing that story - if you steal a car and are joy-riding, you can have a sudden epiphany as to the injustice you have caused the owner of the car, so you pull over and drop to your knees and beg forgiveness, in Jesus's name. You are forgiven - but, you still have the car. You don't get to keep it, unless the owner forgives you and allows you to keep it. Thus, the critical path of the reckoning of the injustice is through the victim. That's why we ask "forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US" - Jesus does not give the car back. ).
It is a fact that many Faiths do not deal with "temporal punishments", which is what you are describing - the recognition that our sin choice, which causes injustice, damages someone else.
I find that those who "shake their head sadly" at having to deal with the resulting injustice of their sin choices are usually unaware of Paul's instruction of dealing with "temporal punishments", found in 1 Cor 3 - the basic concept being that we are judged according to our works relative to our gifts (1 Cor 3:8, Romans 2:5-10) for those things done in Faith and with a love of God and neighbor. There is an effect on our bretheran, when we choose to sin - for which we suffer a loss. Purgatory is a purification, wherein temporal punishments are served - justice is done, the soul is really clean (not "white-washed") and ready for entry into heaven.
Purgatory come to us from Judaism and is contained in the Hellenistic Canon. Some use the Jewish Canon, and therefore are not required by that Canon to deal with temporal punishments.
In my opinion - this is THE fundamental difference of opinion between Catholics and Protestants regarding sin and forgiveness.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 6:40:46 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
.... Luther cited the Popes immortality declaration, as among " THOSE MONSTROUS OPINIONS TO BE FOUND IN THE ROMAN DUNGHILL OF DECRETALS"
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/luther-tyndale.htm
Dear Chesterdash,
"On December 19, 1513, in connection with the eighth session of the fifth Lateran Council, Pope Leo X issued a Bull (Apostolici regimis) declaring, "We do condemn and reprobate all who assert that the intelligent soul is mortal" (Damnamus et reprobamus omnes assertentes animam intellectivam mortalem esse). This was directed against the growing "heresy" of those who denied the natural immortality of the soul, and avowed the conditional immortality of man. The Bull also decreed that "all who adhere to the like erroneous assertions shall be shunned and punished as heretics." The decrees of this Council, it should be noted, were all issued in the form of Bulls or constitutions (H. J. Schroeder, Disciplinary Decrees of the General Councils, 1937, pp. 483, 487).
In 1516 Pietro Pomponatius, of Mantua, noted Italian professor and leader among the Averrorists (who denied the immortality of the soul), issued a
[pg. 570]
book in opposition to this position called Treatise on the Immortality of the Soul. This was widely read, especially in the Italian universities. As a result, he was haled before the Inquisition, and his book publicly burned in Venice.
Then, on October 31, 1517, Luther posted his famous Theses on the church door in Wittenberg. In his 1520 published Defence of 41 of his propositions, Luther cited the pope's immortality declaration, as among "those monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals" (proposition 27). In the twenty-seventh proposition of his Defence Luther said:
However, I permit the Pope to establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithful—such are: That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals—in order that such as his faith is, such may be his gospel, such also his faithful, and such his church, and that the lips may have suitable lettuce and the lid may be worthy of the dish.—Martin Luther, Assertio Omnium Articulorum M. Lutheri per Bullam Leonis X. Novissimam Damnatorum (Assertion of all the articles of M. Luther condemned by the latest Bull of Leo X), article 27, Weimar edition of Luther's Works, vol. 7, pp. 131, 132 (a point-by-point exposition of his position, written Dec. 1, 1520, in response to requests for a fuller treatment than that given in his Adversus execrabilem Antichristi Bullam, and Wider die Bulle des Endchrists)."
So, if the soul is not immortal, the soul dies?
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 7:14:04 PM
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ChesterDash
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yes.
doesn't the Bible say that the soul that sins will die?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 7:27:42 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
yes.
doesn't the Bible say that the soul that sins will die?
Dear Chester,
Doesn't Rev 20:7-10 refer to the eternal fate of those who oppose God? Doesn't verse 15 call the pool of fire the second death?
It is not necessary for the soul to die, to cease to be, to uphold the idea of the death of the soul. Fortunately, Purgatory is not like that.
Those there are assured of life, with a certainty we can only hope for.
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 8:53:25 PM
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ChesterDash
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dear sdaw,
so do you believe in eternal death, not punishment as most do? [I don't]
perhaps I should explain what I believe:
after death with rest unconsciously in the grave until the second coming of Jesus when the graves are opened and the sleeping are resurrected to life eternal.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 10:31:18 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
dear sdaw,
so do you believe in eternal death, not punishment as most do? [I don't]
perhaps I should explain what I believe:
after death with rest unconsciously in the grave until the second coming of Jesus when the graves are opened and the sleeping are resurrected to life eternal.
Dear Chester,
I believe that the lost will suffer eternal separation from God. It will be a state of unending torment, of whatever nature. There is no convincing evidence that the dead sleep until the second coming. Moses and Elijah didn't. Lazarus and Abraham didn't. The thief on the cross didn't. Those who arose at the death of Christ didn't.
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/10/2005 10:37:10 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmkjubilee
Since purgatory isn't mentioned in the Bible, but heaven and hell is - then I don't think purgatory exists. There is no middle road. If Jesus died for your sins and paid for it with His blood - what is the point in a purgatory?? Man can't pay for his sins after he dies. That would mean that what Jesus did was irrevalent or not good enough. This is my faith.
I believe that when one dies they go to heaven or hell. Plus, a couple documented after life experiences showed that this was the case. A quick example of this is when Jesus said to the thief hanging with Him on the cross- Jesus said I will see you in paradise to the thief.
Dear kmkjubilee,
The nature of the purification of Purgatory is totally different than the nature of the punishment of Hell. Much of the theology and terminology regarding Purgatory is conceived and explained in terms of the Roman legal concept of satisfaction. Without a lot of study, it doesn't make sense to the casual observer.
I would explain it this way
God demands, and we owe Him, perfect love. Our initial justification is something we receive from Him totally as a result of His grace. This creates between Him and us a state of perfect koinonia, which we call a state of grace. What we call "venial" sin weakens, but does not, and cannot destroy this koinonia. What we call a "mortal" sin does.
Our repentence and His forgiveness restores the koinonia. What we call "temporal punishment due to sin" is the effort on our part to restore the koinonia. Just as sin is an act which involves the consent of the will, so repentence is an act which requires the consent of the will. Repentence is not just a turning away from sin, it is a turning toward God. If you will, penance can be described what we do, with the help of God's grace, to turn ourselves from sin to Him in perfect love.
Most of us die in a condition of not having the perfect love of God that is His due. This imperfection in us is the result of our sin. The process of purification which we call Purgatory is the final wrench which aligns us perfectly with God.
The "temporal punishment" of Purgatory is curative, not punitive.
There is only one "punishment" for sin, and that is eternal separation from God. The price of our Salvation was paid in full on the Cross. Scripture uses suffering as an image of the process by which we achieve our perfection in Christ.
I do not pretend that this explains it all, or even very well.
But it may serve to get past some of the sticking points on the issue of Purgatory.
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/29/2005 4:35:08 PM
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ToolmanUF
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From: Washington, DC
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I see that the topic of life after death hasn't been discusses lately.
There was a particular doctrine that caught my eye the other day and I realize that it may very well one of the most influential doctrines in the history of Christianity; the idea of indulgences.
Since this topic corresponds to life after death and Purgatory, I guess that this is the place for it. Anyways, is the concept of indulgences Biblical? Is it only found in certain versions of the Bible? Does the belief of "forgiveness for temporal punishment" take away from the work of Christ?
This issue still hasn't been resolved, so it might be beneficial for Christians to discuss it.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/31/2005 8:11:20 PM
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kmangel
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My understanding is that after death comes the glorification of those found in Christ. Isn't this really what we are all promised? However God chooses to accomplish making us in reality what we are now promised is called glorification. We are now positionaly righteous in that Christ's sacrifice covers us but after our glorification we will be practically righteous. Catholic theology calls this process purgatory. I don't know what happens per se after we die, but I am expecting glorification. To be what I now only see in faith--perfect in body, mind and spirit.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/31/2005 9:38:27 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
This issue still hasn't been resolved, so it might be beneficial for Christians to discuss it.
The issue can be resolved very easily. All we need is a public admission by the present pope that the Catholic dogma of purgatory has absolutely no foundation in Scripture, and therefore should be totally abandoned, along with any teaching about indulgences. When can we expect some honesty from the Vatican?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/31/2005 9:46:05 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
This issue still hasn't been resolved, so it might be beneficial for Christians to discuss it.
The issue can be resolved very easily. All we need is a public admission by the present pope that the Catholic dogma of purgatory has absolutely no foundation in Scripture, and therefore should be totally abandoned, along with any teaching about indulgences. When can we expect some honesty from the Vatican?
Dear Ezra,
You already have honesty from the Vatican. Purgatory is known from Tradition, and has been shown to be perfectly consistent with Scripture. The Vatican has never claimed otherwise.
What one cannot find in Scripture is the idea that everything is to be found in Scripture. When can we expect from honesty from Protestantism?
On the Feast of Saints Peter Quy and Emmanuel Phung
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/31/2005 10:18:47 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1252
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
What one cannot find in Scripture is the idea that everything is to be found in Scripture. When can we expect from honesty from Protestantism?
Just two verses - 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 -- should suffice to confirm that everything that we need for life and godliness is to be found in Scripture, which is theopneustos (God-breathed), unlike the proclamations from the Vatican. Christ confirmed this in Matthew 4:4. That is enough for us.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/31/2005 10:47:22 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 97
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:
Just two verses - 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 -- should suffice to confirm that everything that we need for life and godliness is to be found in Scripture, which is theopneustos (God-breathed), unlike the proclamations from the Vatican. Christ confirmed this in Matthew 4:4. That is enough for us.
Perhaps. But which canon of the Scriptures? Funny how the Bible didn't come with an index saying which books belong in it and which don't.
BTW, in the Catholic Bible (which contains 7 more books and some longer books than most Protestant canons) there is a passage which talks about the purification process. Thus, how can Catholics be accused of being anti-scriptural when their Bible talks about a Purgatorial process?
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