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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 1:05:34 PM
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lw9
Posts: 525
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quote:
TCC: Question: If a little Muslim boy, say 5 years old, dies in a dusty village and never heard the Gospel, will God damn the poor shmuck to hell for something that was beyond the kids control? No, God will not do that.
Thus the Church rightlky teaches: "...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." Lumen gentium 16; cf. Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum 3866-3872
What you've just presented is a feel-good humanistic opinion rather than a Biblical fact.
God calls, God chooses, God has mercy upon whoever He pleases. He can have mercy on a 5-year-old village boy and open his heart to accept the truth, but it will only be through God-given faith in Jesus Christ that he or anyone else on this planet will be saved. Seeking a false god with a sincere heart and following a false religion will not get a Muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, or Hindu to any place other than hell.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 1:13:45 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 269
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Hey... the Muslims call upon Mary! They're a shoe-in!
Question: If a little Muslim boy, say 5 years old, dies in a dusty village and never heard the Gospel, will God damn the poor shmuck to hell for something that was beyond the kids control? No, God will not do that.
Thus the Church rightlky teaches: "...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." Lumen gentium 16; cf. Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum 3866-3872
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.l
Hello TheCatholicCrusader,
God doesn't save us for the "good we do, He has mercy on us and converts us by His Holy Spirit. If God so chooses to have mercy on that boy, He can bring Him to faith, even without someone preaching the Gospel to Him.
But if the boy dies a pious Muslim, or dies without having faith in the eternal Son of God, he will go to hell, just as any other condemned sinner.
Romans 3:23
For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (ESV)
Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.(ESV)
So no one is deemed innocent by God, not even a baby, who hasn't committed any personal sins, original sin is enough to condemn you.
Psalm 51:5
5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV)
So the Bible is pretty clear that no one is innocent before God.
And your quote seems to contradict what St. Augustine said about original sin, that no one is innocent.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 7/26/2008 1:20:26 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 1:16:03 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4132
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Thus the Church rightlky teaches: "...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." Lumen gentium 16; cf. Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum 3866-3872
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.l
You should say...The RCC teaches this.
When did man write this document ?
I already know, don't you ???
Now, Jesus calls Himself "THE WAY".
Ergo, we can disregard man's writings.
Papal writings and other magisterium
are written by RCC for The RCC.
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The purpose of being educated is to defend ourselves against the seductions of eloquence.......Bertrand Russell
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 1:21:21 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4132
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Hello TheCatholicCrusader,
God doesn't condemn us for the "good" we do, or even if we hadn't heard the gospel, it is because of our sin that He condemns us.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Our good deeds are filthy rags...
We have no righteousness of our own.
To say that we have our own goodness
or our goodness can save is false doctrine.
Jesus denounced works of man, and if
man's good works were recognized by
God (which they are not), who needs Jesus ?
_____________________________
The purpose of being educated is to defend ourselves against the seductions of eloquence.......Bertrand Russell
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 1:25:35 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4132
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
What you've just presented is a feel-good humanistic opinion rather than a Biblical fact.
God calls, God chooses, God has mercy upon whoever He pleases. He can have mercy on a 5-year-old village boy and open his heart to accept the truth, but it will only be through God-given faith in Jesus Christ that he or anyone else on this planet will be saved. Seeking a false god with a sincere heart and following a false religion will not get a Muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, or Hindu to any place other than hell.
Well said...Jesus commanded us to follow Him !
I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy.
God can and does have mercy as He pleases.
Salvation is by The Blood of Christ shed on the cross.
No other Name under Heaven by which men are saved.
Sincerity and good intentions lead a man to hell.
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The purpose of being educated is to defend ourselves against the seductions of eloquence.......Bertrand Russell
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 1:41:41 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 269
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Hello TheCatholicCrusader,
God doesn't condemn us for the "good" we do, or even if we hadn't heard the gospel, it is because of our sin that He condemns us.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Our good deeds are filthy rags...
We have no righteousness of our own.
To say that we have our own goodness
or our goodness can save is false doctrine.
Jesus denounced works of man, and if
man's good works were recognized by
God (which they are not), who needs Jesus ?
I put "good" in quotes because we cannot do anything good. I was trying to speak in Roman Catholic terms (being sarcastic, which I shouldn't have done).
I believe in original sin, and totally depraved at that. I believe man is depraved to the core and we are hopeless (condemned) in the sight of God.
If you want to know my views on original sin, I have similar views to St Augustine, which is why I made mention of him in my post, and also you can read the Book of Concord as well (The Lutheran Confessions), which also explains my view on sin, especially original sin.
I hope this clarifies.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 2:34:32 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4132
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
I hope this clarifies.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
No need sister !
We agree and follow Jesus as Lord !
manna
_____________________________
The purpose of being educated is to defend ourselves against the seductions of eloquence.......Bertrand Russell
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 7:29:07 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 166
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
TCC: Question: If a little Muslim boy, say 5 years old, dies in a dusty village and never heard the Gospel, will God damn the poor shmuck to hell for something that was beyond the kids control? No, God will not do that.
Thus the Church rightly teaches: "...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." Lumen gentium 16; cf. Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum 3866-3872
What you've just presented is a feel-good humanistic opinion rather than a Biblical fact. ...
What I have just presented is "Mercy", a concept that seems to be sorely lacking in this forum.
However, let me clarify: The boy in my scenario would be saved by the blood of Christ and His death and resurrection, that is true, whether he knows it or not. And, I am assuming in my scenario that the child acted in accord with his conscience according to whatever light God showed him. My scenario would NOT apply to someone who violated their conscience and therefore sinned wantonly.
But God will not cast someone into eternal damnation for something that was beyond their control. That would not be just, and God's justice is perfect.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/26/2008 9:55:34 PM
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lw9
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
TCC: But God will not cast someone into eternal damnation for something that was beyond their control. That would not be just, and God's justice is perfect.
That would not be just according to you, but who are you? Seriously... who are you to impose your personal version of justice onto God and tell Him what He should and should not do? Christians are to follow God's word, not humanistic ideals.
His word states we are born into sin and deserve death, period. We have no excuse, we cannot keep the law, and we cannot save ourselves in any way, period. There is no salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, period. God's justice IS perfect, but unfortunately you are following your preferred definition of justice rather than the Biblical definition of justice.
quote:
My God is a God of love and mercy, not the tyrannical God of the Fundamentalists who would cast little children into hell.
The God of the Holy Bible makes it crystal clear there is no other way to heaven than through faith in Jesus Christ. There is no shortcut, back door, or loophole for anyone. If you wish to call God's truth tyrannical, that's certainly your freedom to do so. If you have the Biblical evidence to support your beliefs, then post it. Otherwise.... it's all just opinion.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/31/2008 2:31:39 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5115
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Question: If a little Muslim boy, say 5 years old, dies in a dusty village and never heard the Gospel, will God damn the poor shmuck to hell for something that was beyond the kids control?
The boy would go to hell for his sin. Whether that is "beyond his control" is really a moot point. He did the crime, he justly deserves the punishment. He won't be punished for hearing the Gospel and refusing it, but he has sins and he'll be punished for those.
This seems quite simple.
-TurretinFan
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/31/2008 2:35:06 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5115
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quote:
However, let me clarify: The boy in my scenario would be saved by the blood of Christ and His death and resurrection, that is true, whether he knows it or not. And, I am assuming in my scenario that the child acted in accord with his conscience according to whatever light God showed him. My scenario would NOT apply to someone who violated their conscience and therefore sinned wantonly.
Scripture teaches us that the only way to be saved by the blood of Christ is through faith in Him. How can they believe in Him in whom they have not heard?
They cannot, and consequently in the absence of a preacher, they will die in their sins. That's one reason that the church has such an important role: it brings the gospel to the lost, so that they can be saved (because if a person does not seek salvation by faith, they will be lost).
-Turretinfan
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/31/2008 5:22:59 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 218
Joined: 5/29/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
TCC: Question: If a little Muslim boy, say 5 years old, dies in a dusty village and never heard the Gospel, will God damn the poor shmuck to hell for something that was beyond the kids control? No, God will not do that.
Thus the Church rightly teaches: "...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." Lumen gentium 16; cf. Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum 3866-3872
What you've just presented is a feel-good humanistic opinion rather than a Biblical fact. ...
What I have just presented is "Mercy", a concept that seems to be sorely lacking in this forum.
However, let me clarify: The boy in my scenario would be saved by the blood of Christ and His death and resurrection, that is true, whether he knows it or not. And, I am assuming in my scenario that the child acted in accord with his conscience according to whatever light God showed him. My scenario would NOT apply to someone who violated their conscience and therefore sinned wantonly.
But God will not cast someone into eternal damnation for something that was beyond their control. That would not be just, and God's justice is perfect.
We are not guilty and condemned (thus wholly dependent upon God's mercy) because we sin "wantonly": nor are we saved by choosing not to sin "wantonly." All men are condemned because we have sinned against God! One sin is all it takes to offend the perfect righteousness of God our Creator. Your scenerio suggests that the it is possible that some people have righteous hearts that motivate them to act correctly, but the Bible tells us just the opposite is true - we are all born with a sin nature (this nature affects us somehting like this: a man is not a liar because he tells lies; he tells lies because he is a liar), therefore our hearts are so corrupt that they are beyond understanding (our hearts are not corrupt because we commit sin; we commit sin because our hearts are corrupt). Because this is true, it is difficult to conceive someone's heart leading them to act in such a way that God would reward them with salvation. The boy is guilty of sin, as we all are, and therefore is fully reliant upon the mercy of God for salvation - not his ability to act in accord with some standard.
That said, your scenerio is one of the most common arguments that lost people make against the Gospel. In Romans, Paul breifly addresses this issue, but it is difficult to determine exactly what is meant. At points, Paul's discourse seems to say something similar to your position, CatholicCrusader, but at other points he seems to counter that conclusion by writing that everyone is guilty of sin and therefore will remain in a state of condemnation unless they put their faith in Jesus.
Is it possible that someone could receive salvation through Jesus, even though he never heard of Jesus; didn't really believe his particular religious orientation; believed that he has offended God by his sin; and believed that his only hope is the mercy of God (even though he doesn't know anything about who or what God is)? Yes, I suppose it is possible that God would apply the blood of Jesus to that person. I tell people that this is a fruitless discussion though, because it deals with rhetorical situations and delves into areas of the mechanics of God's judgment that He has chosen not to reveal clearly to us. So, I'm telling you what I tell others: "God will judge that five-year old Muslim boy righteously."
That is all we really need to know.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 7/31/2008 5:54:50 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/31/2008 5:50:45 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 269
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
TCC: Question: If a little Muslim boy, say 5 years old, dies in a dusty village and never heard the Gospel, will God damn the poor shmuck to hell for something that was beyond the kids control? No, God will not do that.
Thus the Church rightly teaches: "...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." Lumen gentium 16; cf. Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum 3866-3872
What you've just presented is a feel-good humanistic opinion rather than a Biblical fact. ...
What I have just presented is "Mercy", a concept that seems to be sorely lacking in this forum.
However, let me clarify: The boy in my scenario would be saved by the blood of Christ and His death and resurrection, that is true, whether he knows it or not. And, I am assuming in my scenario that the child acted in accord with his conscience according to whatever light God showed him. My scenario would NOT apply to someone who violated their conscience and therefore sinned wantonly.
But God will not cast someone into eternal damnation for something that was beyond their control. That would not be just, and God's justice is perfect.
.
Your definition of justice is wrong. We are born into sin, therfore, all we deserve is eternal damnation in hell. If God were to open the little boy's heart to the truth, and the boy then had faith in Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to the Father, then yes, he will be saved. But there is no salvation if you seek after a false moon god with all your heart. All that will lead to is hell, period.
You really should read the writings of St Augustine on original sin. They are a lot more biblical than the view you hold.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 8/3/2008 12:40:19 AM
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5lilMonkies
Posts: 136
Joined: 9/14/2005
From: Home is where the heart is.
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quote:
Your definition of justice is wrong. We are born into sin, therfore, all we deserve is eternal damnation in hell. If God were to open the little boy's heart to the truth, and the boy then had faith in Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to the Father, then yes, he will be saved. But there is no salvation if you seek after a false moon god with all your heart. All that will lead to is hell, period.
quote:
His word states we are born into sin and deserve death, period. We have no excuse, we cannot keep the law, and we cannot save ourselves in any way, period. There is no salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, period. God's justice IS perfect, but unfortunately you are following your preferred definition of justice rather than the Biblical definition of justice.
quote:
(because if a person does not seek salvation by faith, they will be lost).
quote:
everyone is guilty of sin and therefore will remain in a state of condemnation unless they put their faith in Jesus.
I have not read this whole thread (as I have just now ventured into this part of the forum world) and what is being said by some here really perplexes me. I have quoted just a few from this last page and you can see a common opinion (which I fear is one that is carried by many Protestants). The example given by TheCatholicCrusader is of a Muslim boy, but what if it was a five year old who never heard the mention of religion being taught? What then? What then for those who have lost their littles ones a just a few months old or even one or two years old? For them to say and profess Jesus as Savior is an impossible concept. What about the severely mentally handicapped who sit institutionalized never hearing the gospel? Or even the full-term baby lost during birth? I just can't accept that God would give them the fate of eternity in hell simply because they never heard of Jesus. Where is mercy in that?
quote:
Yes, I suppose it is possible that God would apply the blood of Jesus to that person. I tell people that this is a fruitless discussion though, because it deals with rhetorical situations and delves into areas of the mechanics of God's judgment that He has chosen not to reveal clearly to us.
Yes that is exactly it. Too many Christians are quick to "condemn" a person with out knowing (simply because it is not up to them to make that decision) what God will do with that individual. I choose to believe that God wants every living creation to live eternally with Him. And if it is our fault for not proactively preaching the Word to the four corners of the earth, (in my opinion) then the fault/blame/judgement is upon us, not the soul who does not know.
(if this in any way is off topic I do apologize and kindly ask for redirection to the proper thread)
_____________________________
Cloth Convert: online cloth diaper store.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 8/3/2008 12:45:49 AM
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5lilMonkies
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HA HA HA. Wanna know something funny? I just challenged myself by my own handle. My spirit truly questions this issue.
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Cloth Convert: online cloth diaper store.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 8/6/2008 12:59:34 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 269
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RepentanceIsRequired
I have not read this whole thread (as I have just now ventured into this part of the forum world) and what is being said by some here really perplexes me. I have quoted just a few from this last page and you can see a common opinion (which I fear is one that is carried by many Protestants). The example given by TheCatholicCrusader is of a Muslim boy, but what if it was a five year old who never heard the mention of religion being taught? What then? What then for those who have lost their littles ones a just a few months old or even one or two years old? For them to say and profess Jesus as Savior is an impossible concept. What about the severely mentally handicapped who sit institutionalized never hearing the gospel? Or even the full-term baby lost during birth? I just can't accept that God would give them the fate of eternity in hell simply because they never heard of Jesus. Where is mercy in that?
Everyone is condemned to hell because of sin, period. If God were to have mercy on a 3 month old infant, God can have that infant believe in Him. You might think it is an impossible concept for infants to have faith in Christ, but it is not.
Psalm 22:9-10
9Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.
10On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
Matthew 21:16
"Do you hear what these are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes; have you never read,
"'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies
you have prepared praise'?" (Psalm 8, Matthew 21:16)
Matthew 18:5
5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Luke 1:39-45
39In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, 40and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, 42and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."
Apparently, babies and young children can have faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. We just can't behold it with our reason. But apart from faith in Christ, there is only one destination, hell. And babies who die who do not have faith in Christ go to one place, hell, because of sin.
Same goes for the mentally handicapped. They are saved through faith in Christ too. And Christ can and does, give them that faith. You just can't see it.
God does have a righteous judgement. Is it not righteous of God to cast sin, (those who do not have faith in Christ) into the lake of fire?
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 8/6/2008 2:12:28 PM
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5lilMonkies
Posts: 136
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quote:
Apparently, babies and young children can have faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. We just can't behold it with our reason. But apart from faith in Christ, there is only one destination, hell. And babies who die who do not have faith in Christ go to one place, hell, because of sin.
Very good. So where/how/who does these babies get/learn their faith from? Does God not want all of His creation with Him in eternity?
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Cloth Convert: online cloth diaper store.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 8/6/2008 2:13:21 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 13111
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Please take this to the Salvation Issues folder--this thread is about Catholic documents.
Thanks!
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Fasten your seat belts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 8/8/2008 7:58:42 AM
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turretinfan
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The irony here is that Catholicism used to teach that there is no salvation outside the Church. That's one of the points of this thread, to explore this kind of inconsistent argument. Today we here claims that God is going to save those who don't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (not to mention becoming part of "the Church").
It really demonstrates how Vatican II created a real change in Catholicism, and one that has been resisted only by a minority of those who call themselves "Catholics."
-TurretinFan
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 8/11/2008 12:19:43 PM
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Codegrazer
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From: New York
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quote:
So, you really don't know that you were saved until you die wothout having committed some grevious and sinful act.
Hmm, I THINK I know what you are trying to say...that some people think they are saved but they aren't. Of course, that's true.
BUT if you truly accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour having died for our sins and was then raised from the dead then you are saved and you are most assuredly assured of that. God has made that very promise and our God is a God who keeps His promises.
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. John 14:1
How could one not be anxious about ANYTHING without certain assurance of their faith in Jesus?
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
As we see, we are clearly instructed to be assured of our salvation and we need not (should not) wait until we are dead to find out for sure - this would negatively affect ones ability to operate in the Holy Spirit here in this world. Some people misinterpret the word "hope" in the Bible as being something inconclusive - hope but not assurance. But the original Greek word for hope is "ejlpivß" which refers to a "joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation" and is from the primary word "elpo" which means "to anticipate, usually with pleasure."
As far as committing grievous sin goes, ALL sin is equally abhorrent to God. Murderers can be saved. On the other hand, a truly saved person is also known by their fruit. If the fruit is that which commits murder then one might wonder about one's true heart regarding Jesus.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 3/12/2010 12:23:42 PM
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caur
Posts: 203
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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This is untrue. The deity of Islam is the ancestral god of Mohammed's father and not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
Wes,
The diety of Islam is the God of Abram who is the Lord God Almighty. Those are facts. Where is the problem?
In Christ, George
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Pope Benedict's statement on social media - 1/24/2011 4:40:51 PM
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ayani
Posts: 68
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Some of you probably saw Pope Benedict's statement on Social Media, issued today. I'm not Catholic, but I ran across this and think it worth sharing.
I think he raises some very good questions of general interest for all us Christians who use the internet, to reflect on:
quote:
"Ever greater involvement in the public digital forum, created by the so-called social networks, helps to establish new forms of interpersonal relations, influences self-awareness and therefore inevitably poses questions not only of how to act properly, but also about the authenticity of one's own being. .... In the search for sharing, for 'friends', there is the challenge to be authentic and faithful, and not give in to the illusion of constructing an artificial public profile for oneself.
"The new technologies allow people to meet each other beyond the confines of space and of their own culture, creating in this way an entirely new world of potential friendships. This is a great opportunity, but it also requires greater attention to and awareness of possible risks. Who is my 'neighbour' in this new world? Does the danger exist that we may be less present to those whom we encounter in our everyday life? Is there is a risk of being more distracted because our attention is fragmented and absorbed in a world 'other' than the one in which we live? Do we have time to reflect critically on our choices and to foster human relationships which are truly deep and lasting? It is important always to remember that virtual contact cannot and must not take the place of direct human contact with people at every level of our lives" /quote]
Link to document
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 2/3/2011 12:08:57 PM
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heretoeternity
Posts: 190
Joined: 1/23/2011
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This is a far reaching question...Do Roman church followers worship the same God as the rest of the Christian followers? Do JW and Mormons worship the same God? Do Muslims worship the same God as Christians? and on and on.....the only test for people professing to be Christians..follow the Holy Bible word of God..plain and simple..never mind the doctrines of man..Remember in addition to 14.6 John...Jesus said..TO ENTER INTO LIFE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS...AND IF YOU LOVE ME..DO WHAT i COMMAND..He identified these as the ten commandments...very simple follow all ten of them...they are from God....if you do not follow them, it is difficult to say you are one of God's people!
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 5/24/2011 1:04:22 PM
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Blapp
Posts: 32
Joined: 5/24/2011
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RCC Catechism
The Church and non-Christians
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
I have read through most of the posts and what came to mind, were the scripture verses where Jesus rebukes the Jews of His day, when they lay claim similarily to 'hold the faith of Abraham' - and I would wonder how He would view the underlined words in the catechsim above.
John 8.
8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
To me it is very clear that their claim did not have any sway with Jesus - He made it quite clear whom HIS FATHER was and whom their's was.....and they're not the same.....why?....because of their rejection of Him.
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