|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Timing of Rapture - 10/10/2008 11:21:31 AM
|
|
|
coconut_princess
Posts: 68
Joined: 12/31/2006
Status: offline
|
I have always heard from many Christians that Jesus will be coming back to gather his people before the tribulation. When I looked in the Bible to find scripture to support this, I found nothing. I read online that pre-trib believers say the proof of a pre-trib rapture is found in Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this ".
Pre-tribers say "come up here" means rapture and because it is in chapter 4, it's before the tribulation. I do not get this at all when I read that verse.
I've done some studying and I found a few interesting things that make me believe that the rapture happens after the tribulation. Here is what I found. I've colored some similiarities I've found.
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:52
It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
Revelation 14:14-16
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
When I read these, it tells me that Jesus is coming back, for all to see, (not a secret ie: people vanishing) at the sound of the last trump. Revelation 14 is not before the tribulation. Plus, Matthew 24:29 says, "immediately after the tribulation"... that should settle it right there.
What are your thoughts?
_____________________________
 1 John 2:4
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/10/2008 11:26:43 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
I agree, there's no biblical support for a secret rapture - or other secret end time event.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/10/2008 12:26:12 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
What are your thoughts?
Same as yours. LOL.
When we 'finally' read the Word for what IT says,
IT says what IT says, and means what IT means.
Nothing more, and nothing less.
The Bible teaches RESURRECTION, not rapture.
Rapture is a man-made doctrine.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/10/2008 4:09:58 PM
|
|
|
bettymackII
Posts: 1463
Joined: 4/28/2007
Status: offline
|
Excellent thinkers!!
The rapture takes place at the same time as Christ second coming!!
"catching up" is only the act not the timing of the rapture
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/10/2008 8:25:58 PM
|
|
|
Lady_of_Faith
Posts: 81
Joined: 9/18/2008
Status: offline
|
Before I had the full understanding of a post-trib rapture, I believed in pre-trib simply because I thought God wouldn't let true Christians go through something like that and I thought it was meant for all the non-believers in order to get them to become believers (plus what I read in the Left Behind series) -- just kidding! 
But like the OP, I began to study the Word more, the ones listed and it makes perfect sense.
So, I agree as well
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/10/2008 8:45:18 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2495
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: coconut_princess
I have always heard from many Christians that Jesus will be coming back to gather his people before the tribulation. When I looked in the Bible to find scripture to support this, I found nothing. I read online that pre-trib believers say the proof of a pre-trib rapture is found in Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this ".
Pre-tribers say "come up here" means rapture and because it is in chapter 4, it's before the tribulation. I do not get this at all when I read that verse.
I've done some studying and I found a few interesting things that make me believe that the rapture happens after the tribulation. Here is what I found. I've colored some similiarities I've found.
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:52
It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
Revelation 14:14-16
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
When I read these, it tells me that Jesus is coming back, for all to see, (not a secret ie: people vanishing) at the sound of the last trump. Revelation 14 is not before the tribulation. Plus, Matthew 24:29 says, "immediately after the tribulation"... that should settle it right there.
What are your thoughts?
Greetings
quote:
When I read these, it tells me that Jesus is coming back, for all to see, (not a secret ie: people vanishing) at the sound of the last trump. Revelation 14 is not before the tribulation. Plus, Matthew 24:29 says, "immediately after the tribulation"... that should settle it right there.
Well basically the only thing Jesus told us that we “would not” know of the Father ….was day and the hour.... as opposed to everything Jesus had; He has given to us,
So one can safely assume that until Jesus ascended He did know either, by His own words
And even more so "since He did ascend ..."now He knows!
All you have managed to give above is what Jesus already knew when He was here among us, so those verses above are what “everyone knows”;
And in like manner… is not what Jesus meant by .. “No one knows” the day and the hour
quote:
What are your thoughts?
It’s getting very close 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/10/2008 8:57:54 PM
|
|
|
HisFish
Posts: 686
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I agree, there's no biblical support for a secret rapture - or other secret end time event.
I agree with Jimbo, i used to believe in a "Left behind" kind of scenario, but that theology just could not sustain itself IMO
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/11/2008 5:10:36 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 833
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
coconut_princess...
First, welcome to the Prophesy and End-Times forum.
Secondly, I agree with you that the Rapture falls immediately after the last trumpet (1Corinthians 15-16). That being said, there are many of very respected scholars who would vehemently disagree with you. Some of the verses used to support it are Revelation 3:10 (therefore I will save you from the hour of trouble...), Matthew 24:40-42 (Watch, therefore, for you do not know the day or the hour), 2Peter 4:4-9 (The the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgement), and 2Thessalonians 2:6-8 (only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way). All of these verses have explanations that show that they say nothing that they are being made to say... but there are many respected scholars who believe it. Personally, I don't buy it.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/11/2008 6:05:55 AM
|
|
|
coconut_princess
Posts: 68
Joined: 12/31/2006
Status: offline
|
Hi FurGodWurLivin, thanks for the welcome 
I've also read the scriptures you've pointed out, but if I were to believe they were pre-trib scriptures, then I would have a contradiction and we know that the Bible does not contradict itself. It is consistent and will not indicate pre-trib in one area and post-trib in another. I am however interested to know the explanations of these verses if you know them and have the time to elaborate more on them or if you have any website links to where I could read more on them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
coconut_princess...
First, welcome to the Prophesy and End-Times forum.
Secondly, I agree with you that the Rapture falls immediately after the last trumpet (1Corinthians 15-16). That being said, there are many of very respected scholars who would vehemently disagree with you. Some of the verses used to support it are Revelation 3:10 (therefore I will save you from the hour of trouble...), Matthew 24:40-42 (Watch, therefore, for you do not know the day or the hour), 2Peter 4:4-9 (The the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgement), and 2Thessalonians 2:6-8 (only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way). All of these verses have explanations that show that they say nothing that they are being made to say... but there are many respected scholars who believe it. Personally, I don't buy it.
Adam
_____________________________
1 John 2:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/11/2008 8:02:16 AM
|
|
|
Ntech
Posts: 68
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
|
For a rapture timing take a look at the 6th seal of Revelation. Revelation 7 verse 13. The multitude of people appear out of nowhere. Also Matthew 24 verse 29 through 31. Under conditions similar to the the 6th seal of Revelation the elect are gathered. Considering both sets of verses I would say that the Rapture is part of the events of the 6th seal. Though that would make it an early mid tribulation event. But considering that the 1/2 hour of the 7th seal is a sizable piece of time however. At a day with the Lord is a 1000 years on the earth according to 2nd Peter 3-8 then a half hour is about 20 to 21 years. The seals occur well before the rest of Revelation.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/11/2008 1:10:35 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2495
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: coconut_princess
Hi FurGodWurLivin, thanks for the welcome
I've also read the scriptures you've pointed out, but if I were to believe they were pre-trib scriptures, then I would have a contradiction and we know that the Bible does not contradict itself. It is consistent and will not indicate pre-trib in one area and post-trib in another. I am however interested to know the explanations of these verses if you know them and have the time to elaborate more on them or if you have any website links to where I could read more on them.
Greetings,
quote:
I am however interested to know the explanations of these verses if you know them and have the time to elaborate more on them or if you have any website links to where I could read more on them.
The web site is here, what would you like to know?
To Start:
The problem with Rev 3:10 is that is does not use the word "saved from! If we were going to be ...saved from.. The hour of testing; then it means that we are in the hour of testing and is contradictory to the beginning of the verse…
In other words, the wording "saved from! As opposed to the beginning of the verse would not be consistent with the law of God
A good example of that can be gathered here
Mt 14:29-31 - Show Context
29 So He said, "Come." And when Peter had come down out of the boat, “he walked”.. on the water to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, F67 he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!" 31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Peter “was walking” on the water, so there was no need to be saved from that; because he was walking on the water, Peter was “saved from”.. Sinking!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/11/2008 1:52:23 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
|
Shalom, HisFish!
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I agree, there's no biblical support for a secret rapture - or other secret end time event.
I agree with Jimbo, i used to believe in a "Left behind" kind of scenario, but that theology just could not sustain itself IMO
There's a lot of us, aren't there? I was taught the whole pre-trib rapture position growing up, everything like the "Left Behind" series, except that I was taught that once the Lord had come back to rapture out the "church," that those who had rejected Him to that point would "believe the lie" and would always reject Him to their deaths. If any were to be "saved" in the Tribulation, they would have to convert to Judaism! That's what I USED to believe!
Retrobyter
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/11/2008 2:50:15 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2495
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, HisFish!
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I agree, there's no biblical support for a secret rapture - or other secret end time event.
I agree with Jimbo, i used to believe in a "Left behind" kind of scenario, but that theology just could not sustain itself IMO
There's a lot of us, aren't there? I was taught the whole pre-trib rapture position growing up, everything like the "Left Behind" series, except that I was taught that once the Lord had come back to rapture out the "church," that those who had rejected Him to that point would "believe the lie" and would always reject Him to their deaths. If any were to be "saved" in the Tribulation, they would have to convert to Judaism! That's what I USED to believe!
Retrobyter
Greetings Retrobyter
WoW that was a little steep.
It seems God in my youth kept me from getting corrupted in the religious circles, as a matter of fact I don’t believe God even led me to hear a religious word away from the typical Christmas stuff until 3-4 months before I was saved and that in itself was very spotty.
Basically I believe in the Pre-trib based on the very first day I was converted, the Spirit was so thick; I felt that He was coming that very week, and even that night dreamed of the horses geared in battle gear and at the gates... (and I never read a verse in the Bible about it).... to the point I actually prayed for Him to take my wife instead, because I knew she loved Him and it seemed she knew nothing of what was given to me, (until later)and I didn't wish that she be left behind.
It wasn’t as much as those feelings as it were. It was when I started reading the Bible... is when I found all those things in it.
That’s all it took for me. 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/11/2008 2:52:13 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
|
Shabbat shalom, Ntech.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
For a rapture timing take a look at the 6th seal of Revelation. Revelation 7 verse 13. The multitude of people appear out of nowhere. Also Matthew 24 verse 29 through 31. Under conditions similar to the the 6th seal of Revelation the elect are gathered. Considering both sets of verses I would say that the Rapture is part of the events of the 6th seal. Though that would make it an early mid tribulation event. But considering that the 1/2 hour of the 7th seal is a sizable piece of time however. At a day with the Lord is a 1000 years on the earth according to 2nd Peter 3-8 then a half hour is about 20 to 21 years. The seals occur well before the rest of Revelation.
Hmmm...  Matt. 24:29-31 are NOT about the Rapture, according to the Pretribulational Rapturists! Look at it in context:
Matt 24:13-31
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
The following comes from a harmony of the Olivet Discourse IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE of the three synoptic Gospels, Mattthew, Mark and Luke, and THEN translated into English:
“But, the one who stays under unto the conclusion, he shall be rescued, and the good news about the Kingdom shall be announced in all the habitable earth, becoming a witness to all the nations, and then shall the conclusion come.
“But when you see Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) being surrounded by armies, then know that her Desolation has drawn near. Therefore, when you shall see the Abomination of the Desolation—the one which was spoken about by Dani’el (Daniel) the prophet—established in the awesome Place, where it must not be, … (The one who’s reading this, let him understand.) … then let those in Y’hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. But, the one upon the roof-top should not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. Furthermore, the one in the field is not to return back to take an item of his clothing, and those in the middle of it, let them run out and don’t let those in the wilderness enter into her. For these are the Days of Vengeance which are written about that all things may be fulfilled.
“But … Ooooooaaaaaaiiiiiii!!!!! … to those who are pregnant and to those who nurse babies in those days! And, ask God that your escape may not have to be in winter nor on the Shabbat (Sabbath), for then there shall be those days of great pressure, no, nor has been the like since Genesis’ Creation of the World which God created until now, and, no, nor ever shall be!
“Furthermore, if those days had not been shortened, and if the Lord had not shortened the days, there would not have been anybody left to rescue! However, for the sake of those Chosen Ones whom He chose, He has shortened the days. But, for the sake of the Chosen Ones, those days shall be shortened, for great distress will be upon the Land and violent passion in this people, and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword and shall be led away captive into all the nations, and Yerushalayim shall be trampled by the Goyim (nations; Gentiles) until the times of the Goyim be fulfilled.
“So, then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Mashiach (the Messiah)!’ or ‘Here!’ or ‘Look! There!’ don’t you believe it! For there will arise false Messiahs and false prophets and they will give you great signs and miracles for the deception so as to mislead even the Chosen Ones, if possible!
“However, you, watch out! Look, I have forewarned all this to you. Therefore, if they say to you, ‘Look! He’s in the wilderness!’ Don’t go out there! ‘Look! [He’s] in the assembly halls!’ Don’t believe it! For as the lightning strikes in the east and shines as far as the west, so [obvious] shall also be the becoming visible of the Son of Man! For wherever the carcass may be, that’s where the vultures will be flocking!
“However, in those days immediately after that pressure of those days, there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars: The sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not shine its light, and meteors shall fall out of the sky such that the meteorites shall be fallen out of the sky, and distress of nations and confusion shall be upon the earth; the roaring of the sea and waves! Human beings shall faint from fear and from the dread of those things which are expected to impend the habitable earth. And, for the powers which are in the sky (the cycles of the weather) shall be shaken (disrupted)!
“Also, then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky, and then shall mourn all the tribes of the Land, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the sky, coming in clouds, and coming in a cloud with great strength and great brightness. Then, also, He shall send his messengers with a loud trumpeting sound, and they shall gather His Chosen Ones together out of the four winds from the extremity of the earth to the extremity of the sky to the other limit of the sky. But, when these things begin to come to pass, look up and raise your heads high, for your redemption draws near!”
First, "all the tribes of the Land" is not "all the tribes of the earth!" This is a DIRECT REFERENCE to the prophecy of Z'kharyahu (Zechariah) in Zech. 12:10-14, which forewarns that the Jewish families of the lineage of Yeshua` (thus, having already been resurrected) will mourn for Him as their firstborn son!
Second, this is the description of the "Day of the LORD (YHVH)" described in many of the prophets' writings! As such, it is visible by the WHOLE WORLD, not just the "church!"
Third, the mention of "the roaring of the sea and waves" is an allusion to the second shofar-warning (trumpet), and the "meteorites falling" is a reference to the breaking of the sixth seal and the subsequent unrolling of the curse-scroll of judgment and the first through the fifth shofar-warnings!
Fourth, don't try to apply the "1 day = 1000 years" to everything! That's not what that statement in Kefa's (Cephas' or Peter's) prophecy was for! IN CONTEXT, Kefa was saying that we can't DICTATE to God when to fulfill prophecy! He was saying that God is not lazy like what some people call laziness! He will do what He wants to do WHEN He wants to do it! God, not restricted by time constraints as we humans are, will fulfill prophecy when He's good and ready to do so! We humans only have a lifetime to get the things done that we mean to do; God SPANS lifetimes and a 1000 years to Him are as short as a day to us; furthermore, He can accomplish far more than we can is less time! Thus, He can get a 1000 years of work done in a single day, if and when He chooses! So, if He chooses to wait lifetimes to get a thing done, He's doing it because He is LONGSUFFERING or PATIENT, giving those who will be God-justified time to accept His work of grace and giving those who refuse to be God-justified enough rope to hang themselves!
Fifth, although I DO believe that the verses above include the Rapture, it happens with the Second Coming, when He sends out His messengers to gather His Chosen Ones and bring them to Him as He goes to war in Isra'el to defend and rescue ("save") His People--HIS FAMILY!
Retrobyter
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/12/2008 1:37:41 AM
|
|
|
A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lady_of_Faith
Before I had the full understanding of a post-trib rapture, I believed in pre-trib simply because I thought God wouldn't let true Christians go through something like that ...
I was raised a pentecostal, and remained one up until the age of 20 (17 birthdays ago). It's been a LONG time since I've walked into a pentecostal church, but I imagine NOTHING has changed; and they have the pre-trib thing as part of their doctrine. In all those years I found that doctrine to be very suspicious, namely, because I recognized very early on that God had NEVER provided a scotty-beam-me-up escape route for any christian between the cross and the present time. Millions of christians have been killed, tortured, burned at the steak, used as burning torches, crucified, and other deplorably wicked methods the sick mind can come up with to torture a person to death. GOD NEVER PROVIDED THEM AN ESCAPE FROM DEATH! SO WHY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH DO ANY OF US DESERVE ONE! WHY ARE WE BETTER THAN THEY?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/12/2008 4:49:38 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 833
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
I am however interested to know the explanations of these verses if you know them and have the time to elaborate more on them or if you have any website links to where I could read more on them. Sure thing. If you have a Bible with you this will make it a bit easier, but if not, I will post the scriptures I reference anyway.
Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Basically the argument goes that these people are the faithful church at the end of the age. Since God commends them for keeping the command to persevere, He is going to "keep them from" (read: rapture them out of) the hour of trial. Since the passage is found in the Book of Revelation, we know obviously that the "hour of trial" is the Tribulation of Revelation 5-8, right?
Wrong. Firstly, Revelation 3:10 is smack in the middle of a letter to "The angel (minister) of the Church at Sardis". That means that this is a letter written to an individual. Just as there are things in all of the Epistles that make no sense to us now (since we aren't the primary audience of the letter), there are certain things contained in the letters that are meant specifically for that audience. Notice, God begins the letter to Sardis with a stern warning (you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead), and yet He gives a promise to Sardis that they will be saved. Seems kind of odd, doesn't it, that God would tell this to a church that is falling off the path rather than to a church that God has nothing to correct like Philadelphia. Because it only appears once in all seven letters, we can say that it is meant specifically for Sardis.
Then we also have to look at the history of the letter itself. Taking a traditional date of authorship (somewhere between 70 AD and 96 AD), we have to see what "hour of trial" is being referred to. Since Rome was the superpower that controlled the vast majority of the known world at the time, we can conclude that the hour of trial shook Rome to it's core as well. So what happened? Persecution of the Christian church by the Romans starting at roughly 135 AD and stretching up to 270-ish AD. In fact, the church at Sardis stood resolute until the advent of the Turk and Ottoman empire in Asia Minor between 400 AD and 500 AD (I can't remember the exact date right now). So we can see that this promise was already fulfilled to the letter. The only way to actually make Revelation 3:10 a defense of the rapture is to allegorize the entire book of Revelation, which means it "could" mean anything you wanted it to mean.
Matthew 24:40-42 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
The argument revolves around the idea of normal life going on, and suddenly one is "taken". Sounds like the rapture, right?
Wrong. The entire dispute revolves around what it means to be "taken". To find a simple answer, read the same passage starting from verse 37. What I specifically want to highlight is in verse 39... "...and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Notice, when the past tense of "take" is used here, it is a euphemism of being killed by the flood. So now in verse 40 we see the future tense used where "two men will be in a field, one 'taken' and the other left." Now we are going to totally turn this idea on it's head...
If the only judgements in the "end times" were the fourth seal and the fifth trumpet, they would kill one fourth of mankind and one third of the remainder, respectively. If you do the math, (1- 1/4)- 1/3= 1/2. The only two judgements which talk about the percentage of the population killed take out exactly one half of the population of mankind. "One will be taken and the other left". So now we have a fun question to answer. It says that one will be 'taken'... where will they be taken to? Verse 28 gives us the answer... "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will gather."
2Peter 4:4-9 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds) -- then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment...
This one is a little bit harder to talk about because you have to build a couple layers to get to the true meaning. The argument is that God knows how to deliver the godly out of the world's mess, so we are going to be delivered right before the world goes to pot. It's a nice idea, but the conclusion goes against the grain of the meaning of the passage itself. The bulk of 2Peter 4 is a warning to Peter's disciples of those coming who would bring destructive heresies and their judgement. However, the picture painted in verse 9 is that the judgement of the ungodly IS the deliverance of the godly out of temptations. Lot lived in Gomorrah and abhorred the sin going on around him (possibly the cry going up against the city that God refers to in the story with Abraham), so God's deliverance of Lot from the temptations available to him in Gomorrah was to smoke the city. The deliverance of Noah is much the same way. All of the inclinations of man's heart was only to evil in the days of Noah, so Noah's deliverance from the temptations of the world around him was the complete and utter destruction of all life that refused to line up with the command of God. The judgements unleashed in the end-times are the deliverance of the End-Time disciples, not the rapture.
2Thessalonians 2:6-8 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
This is perhaps the single strongest argument for the Pre-trib rapture available without having to bounce between multiple passages. The main reason why is that Paul is making reference to something He preached in Thessalonica (v 5) that he doesn't feel a need to repeat in the letter (and now you know what is restraining). Because Paul is making a call-back to something he told the Thessalonians in person, it is left undefined in the letter, leaving it open to rampant interpretation.
Some argue that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, and when He is "taken out of the way" we have to go with Him because He will never leave us... putting aside for the moment that Jesus was the one who said that, it is a bit akward to try and argue. If the Holy Spirit is restraining sin, then mankind does not have total free will such as the Arminians teach, but it also means that God will not be directing the chaos of the final 7 years of history (not being here and all) which goes against the entire Book of Revelation. To that effect, I tend to reject the idea that the Restrainer is actually of divine substance.
Some argue that the "restrainer" is the church, and when the restrainer is "taken out of the way" it is the rapture. It makes sense to a point... we throw a fit when the government allows gay marriage and sometimes it acts as a check on their policy, and with us out of here people would run rampant. However, the restrainer is referred to with a singular personal pronoun used in the Third Person. So either Paul is saying that He is not part of the Church (which puts Pauline theology in quite a pickle) or the restrainer is something other than the Church. Add to that the fact that if the restrainer is completely out of the way, then there cannot be a Church of any kind (underground or otherwise) in the end times, and we hit a wall with that line of thinking. I have a theory on who the Restrainer is, but it is JUST a theory.
Hope that helps, and if you want me to continue babbling, just let me know!
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Timing of Rapture - 10/12/2008 6:47:06 AM
|
|
|
coconut_princess
Posts: 68
Joined: 12/31/2006
Status: offline
|
I agree! The Bible says we will go through the same things Jesus went through. The servant is not above the master. It's sort of silly for some to believe that God wouldn't allow His children to go through that, but He is already allowing it because persecution and death are already happening to His people all over the world and the Bible is clear that we will suffer for Him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lady_of_Faith
Before I had the full understanding of a post-trib rapture, I believed in pre-trib simply because I thought God wouldn't let true Christians go through something like that ...
I was raised a pentecostal, and remained one up until the age of 20 (17 birthdays ago). It's been a LONG time since I've walked into a pentecostal church, but I imagine NOTHING has changed; and they have the pre-trib thing as part of their doctrine. In all those years I found that doctrine to be very suspicious, namely, because I recognized very early on that God had NEVER provided a scotty-beam-me-up escape route for any christian between the cross and the present time. Millions of christians have been killed, tortured, burned at the steak, used as burning torches, crucified, and other deplorably wicked methods the sick mind can come up with to torture a person to death. GOD NEVER PROVIDED THEM AN ESCAPE FROM DEATH! SO WHY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH DO ANY OF US DESERVE ONE! WHY ARE WE BETTER THAN THEY?
_____________________________
1 John 2:4
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
