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Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/7/2010 1:09:56 PM
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benzapped
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My understanding of Scripture is that children are commanded by God to obey their parents. So, according to Adrian Rogers’ recent sermon, when children disobey their parents, they are sinning against God. And when parents allow their children to get by with disobeying them, they are allowing their child to sin against God. That’s serious...and I agree with Adrian.
But it seems that many Christian parents today don’t see it that way. I regularly observe small children in our church being disobedient and disrespectful to their parents as well as others. And in some instances, to the point of violence. But the parents sheepishly smile and make excuses for their little ones. The correction, if there is any, is a 2-minute “time out.”
Raising children up in the ways of the Lord is a command to parents. And allowing children to be little barbarians is not in keeping with that command. But few seem to see sin as sin anymore. Most are too busy doing what is right in their own eyes.
That’s my rant,
Ben
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/7/2010 1:40:48 PM
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stampinlady
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What do you consider disobedient and disrespectful ? Kids don't always obey right away and it can take time for them to learn to be obedient right from the first correction. Is it possible that you are just seeing the beginning of the process? I know there are some who allow their kids free roam at church and thats's just wrong to me, but their not being disobedient perse' . Maybe your church needs to offer a parenting class or two ? I had no clue what to do when my kids were little and so read a few books for guidance.
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Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/7/2010 2:42:57 PM
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doinkdom
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Each family unit usually defines obedience and disobedience and sets up rules, etc. accordingly.
Scripture states in Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” 4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
Parents must also teach their children self-control and responsibilities that will become evident in their lives. The above scripture has a command, but also has a consequence or promise that goes along with it, so it is not a foreign or ungodly thing to have consequences for bad behavior.
Another issue I personally see around me, is more about the lack of God's authority in the life of the parent. Children see the authority of God in the lives of their parents, they will more easily understand the need and command for authority in their own lives. God has given parents authority in the lives of their children. And parents can demonstrate that to their children by not continuing in their own rebellion towards God.
And yes...I think you can teach your kids that when they sin, it is first against God and then whomever. However, I also think you can frustrate your kids by oppressing them with so many rules and regulations that they never learn to think for themselves.
In our home:
Rebellion got spankings - there was no discussion or reasoning...simply spankings and then restoration, which means hugs and forgetting the matter.
Accidents, being clumsy, doing "kid" stuff had consequences - some good, some bad.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/7/2010 3:05:53 PM
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lovein
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I know what you're getting at Ben and I do see some wisdom in doin's post also.
Last Sunday, during my church's second service, when the kids were dismissed for Sunday school, the children's leader mentioned that the kids in the first service had been too quiet as they departed so he wanted to hear the children in the second service make a joyful noise unto the Lord. I wondered about this request. How many parents remind their children to depart the sanctuary quietly without running or wreaking havoc as they go? How often do teachers tell their students not to run in the hallways? How many times have I seen mothers and fathers struggle to keep control of their kids in grocery stores or doctor's offices etc.
I'm not sure what to make of his direction. I'm sure he was well intended but was he asking the children to do something that their parents are trying to teach them not to do?
Kids will be kids but perhaps some parents/guardians/leaders go too far and don't remind themselves that parenthood is one of the few jobs we really are supposed to work ourselves out of and that means seeing the big picture.
I've seen and met adults who have little concern for others in this regard. They talk loudly in libraries or offices. They butt into line ups. Basically they behave like bulls in China shops.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/8/2010 12:26:18 AM
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ForgivenGrace
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Work with kids.
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You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. ~Dr. Seuss
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.-Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/8/2010 6:26:19 AM
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gcsjr
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quote:
My understanding of Scripture is that children are commanded by God to obey their parents. So, according to Adrian Rogers’ recent sermon, when children disobey their parents, they are sinning against God. And when parents allow their children to get by with disobeying them, they are allowing their child to sin against God. That’s serious...and I agree with Adrian.
It's quite a stretch to go from disobedience being wrong to it being a sin against God.
As Doinkdom posted, Ephesians 6:1 says the following:
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother"—which is the first commandment with a promise— "that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth." Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
The verse indicates that obedience is "right", and reminds us that honoring our father and mother is a good thing in the eyes of God, but saying that obedience is right doesn't mean that disobedience (the opposite of what is right), in and of itself, is sinning against God. I think we sometimes fall into a trap of turning everything we don't like into a sin so that we have "God on our side" when we address it.
Should children obey their parents (and should parents discipline their children)? Of course. But is a child sinning every time they refuse to eat their broccoli or pick up their toys? I think you would be hard-pressed to make a scriptural case that either of those things is a sin against God.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/8/2010 8:36:19 PM
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benzapped
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3 years old – Tries to hold and control all the toys in the room saying “mine!” Pushes other children away when they want to play with some of the toys. When instructed by the adult to share with the other children, junior says, “no, mine!”
6 years old – When told to take his plate to the sink after dinner, then feed the family dog, junior says “no! My friends are here.” Then runs out the back door to play with his pals.
12 years old – Junior is instructed to “come straight home after school.” Instead junior drops by the pool hall and plays dominoes with the old men. Then, when his parents ask, says he came straight home.
17 years old – Junior gets his drivers license and is told not to allow other kids to ride with him when he goes to and from school. Instead, he goes by and picks up his buddy and they ride around for an hour before going to school. When it gets reported to his parents by one of the elders who saw him, junior denies it, saying he never allows anyone to ride with him.
19 years old – Junior backs into a car on the parking lot. Then drives off hoping no one saw him since the damage he caused would take his week’s paycheck.
22 years old – Junior hijacks a liquor store on Friday night because he’s short on cash that week, and really dislikes having to spend his time doing work.
25 years old – Junior thinks the married chick living in the apartment next door is hot for him. He makes a move on her and gets into a fight with her husband. When the cops arrive, junior shoots one of the officers.
My question is, where in the above does it become sinning against God?
Ben
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/8/2010 9:08:00 PM
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theprincessbuttercup
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All of the actions on that list should have consequences, though the ones after 18 are out of the parents' hands. however, telling a 3 year old he is sinning against God is kinda pointless because he isn't old enough to get it. Besides, 99.9 percent of three-year olds say "no, mine." It is then the job of the adult/parent to intervene. Same with the other stuff.
I received consequences when I disobeyed. But my parents also did not expect perfection 24/7. I think that parents who make the bar so high that no child could possibly reach it are sinning just as much as the ones who ignore while their kids climb the walls.
_____________________________
Jude 24, 25
after 15 minutes I gave up trying to make this av fit...good grief
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/8/2010 9:27:11 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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quote:
My question is, where in the above does it become sinning against God?
All of the above.
Psalm 51:4-5 -- Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
I don't understand why people are so hesitant to call sin what it is. Instead, many prefer to use terms like disobedience, mistakes, immaturity, human frailty, etc. When we do this, we underestimate God's perfect holiness, and we also underestimate the magnitude of His grace, for Christ was the Lamb of God who was sacrificed for the sins of the world, not mere disobedience and human frailty.
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"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/8/2010 9:30:42 PM
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zoebob
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quote:
28. What is sin? Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of the law of God. from CATECHISM FOR CHILDREN
So yes, disobeying your parents is sinning against God because you are not conforming to the commend to obey your parents.
SIn isn't just sin of commission (doing something wrong) but also sin of ommission: Failing to do what is right.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/8/2010 11:06:10 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Moving this from General Faith to Parenting.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/9/2010 5:57:03 AM
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gcsjr
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quote:
My question is, where in the above does it become sinning against God?
So we've gone from children disobeying their parents at church to someone robbing a liquor store to try to defend your point that it is a sin against God when a child disobeys his parent. I think you're somewhat confused about the Biblical concept of sin. People make mistakes and bad choices every day, yet those bad choices, which have consequences, aren't necessarily sins against God.
Children, like adults, make bad choices and should face the consequences for those choices but trying to turn a child saying "no, mine" in regard to his toys into a sin against God is just plain silly.
The leap that you are making from an act of childish selfishness to and shooting someone is both silly and illogical as you are trying to compare the decision-making ability and thought process of a 25-year old with that of a 3-year old.
I get that you think that other people's children aren't as obedient as they should be, but as I said earlier, trying to turn childish acts of selfishness and disobedience into sins against God is something that is simply not supported by scripture.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/9/2010 8:40:17 AM
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bolt.
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quote:
when children disobey their parents, they are sinning against God.
That's true.
quote:
And when parents allow their children to get by with disobeying them, they are allowing their child to sin against God.
It is God that allows children (and everybody else) to sin against Him. Parents do not have the authority to "allow" a child to sin (or not allow it), any more than they have the authority to "allow" a passer-by on the street to sin (or not allow it). There is a difference between responding to sin (so as to discourage it or make it more difficult) and "not allowing it" (which is impossible). There is no Scriptural mandate that parents should do more than teach their children to learn to obey God. That teaching is a process.
At a young age (i.e. 3 years old) the onus is very much on parents not to give instructions that their children are not developmentally capable of learning to consistently obey. Rather, a parent in this situation would be better advised (both by wisdom and by Scripture) to engage in teaching the child good behaviour rather than choosing a command-and-consequences system of parenting.
During this teaching process, the children will not always be able or willing to follow every instruction. That's a normal part of learning a new skill.
Teaching a young child to share toys by command-and-consequences is like someone "teaching" you to do rock climbing, blind folded, by command-and-consiquence -- all you would need to do is exactly what the instructor says. If you don't do what he says, if you try to but can't, if you misunderstand the instruction, if you forget what order he said to do them in, or if you are just plain tired of trying, your "teacher" will make sure you feel the consequences... every time.
All of your examples involve a lack of teaching and positive reinforcement of ordinary expectations. To that degree they are silly. If putting a plate in the sink and feeding the dog is normal, if the child has been taught, then the child will probably do it. If the child has not been taught to do it, the parents were cruel to spring a new procedure on the child on short notice and without any context, and at a moment where it would be difficult to obey. The further examples show a marked lack of supervision as well.
Choosing not to teach your children (as the Scriptures command), choosing not to be responsible for them (as the Scriptures illustrate) and choosing to put undue pressure on them, with respect to their development level (as the Scriptures forbid) are all sins that parents comitt against God and their children. (For which grace is instantly available in Christ, at the point of repentance.)
In addition to this definition of disobedience as sin, it would be important to discuss culpability -- which is the understanding that young children may be living out uncontroled responses, but that they are not held accountable for those choices, due to the phase of life where they have the mercy to be learning obedience, rather than living in it. Some traditions place this transition at 12 years old. Myself, I don't think I'd like to hazard a guess as to when sin becomes a reality in the heart of someone growing up.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/11/2010 6:01:49 PM
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jaimestarcross
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Disobedient children sinning against God... that's true.
Even us grown children still sin against God.
We have 8 grandchildren and yes we do teach right from wrong and they have lessons in manners.
It's not shoved down their throats nor are they spanked at every turn for messing up.
As adults we all can set better examples when around children... so if each of us is
walking the walk and talking the talk our examples can make a difference.
Our Sunday school has a list of manners and we(believers) are able to point them back to those manners...
especially if the child has been dedicated to the Lord and we the believers vowed to nurture this child
(spiritually.) Other children who constantly misbehave -- their parent(s) are called in for a conference with the minister or the associate minister. We haven't encountered to many unruly children at church most of them respond promptly to a warning the first time.
< Message edited by jaimestarcross -- 7/11/2010 6:13:31 PM >
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"Why did you do all this for me?" he asked. "I don't deserve it. I've never done anything for you."
"You have been my friend," replied Charlotte. "That in itself is a tremendous thing."
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/11/2010 11:53:24 PM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
My question is, where in the above does it become sinning against God?
It becomes a sin against God when a child understands the ramifications of his/her actions. My 9 month old is a 9 month old. He does not understand that you have to sit quiet and worship for an hour each Sunday when in church. He does not understand what church is or who God is for that matter. It is a process and that process is different for each and every person.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/12/2010 3:43:28 AM
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Palavra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
quote:
My question is, where in the above does it become sinning against God?
It becomes a sin against God when a child understands the ramifications of his/her actions. My 9 month old is a 9 month old. He does not understand that you have to sit quiet and worship for an hour each Sunday when in church. He does not understand what church is or who God is for that matter. It is a process and that process is different for each and every person.
I'll take it a step further and say that teaching obedience is a process. The 3 year old mentioned in one example who won't share may just be learning that skill. With appropriate consequences, he will get it eventually. I will say that since I became a parent myself, I am a lot less judgmental of other parents and their children. Bystanders can't possibly know the whole situation. That 3 year old that someone observes being selfish and not sharing may have a form of autism or have another issue that we can't know. Each parent is called to parent his or her children only. A parent who isn't teaching his children to be obedient will be accountable to God, but it really isn't any of my business.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/12/2010 8:06:25 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benzapped
3 years old – Tries to hold and control all the toys in the room saying “mine!” Pushes other children away when they want to play with some of the toys. When instructed by the adult to share with the other children, junior says, “no, mine!”
6 years old – When told to take his plate to the sink after dinner, then feed the family dog, junior says “no! My friends are here.” Then runs out the back door to play with his pals.
12 years old – Junior is instructed to “come straight home after school.” Instead junior drops by the pool hall and plays dominoes with the old men. Then, when his parents ask, says he came straight home.
17 years old – Junior gets his drivers license and is told not to allow other kids to ride with him when he goes to and from school. Instead, he goes by and picks up his buddy and they ride around for an hour before going to school. When it gets reported to his parents by one of the elders who saw him, junior denies it, saying he never allows anyone to ride with him.
19 years old – Junior backs into a car on the parking lot. Then drives off hoping no one saw him since the damage he caused would take his week’s paycheck.
22 years old – Junior hijacks a liquor store on Friday night because he’s short on cash that week, and really dislikes having to spend his time doing work.
25 years old – Junior thinks the married chick living in the apartment next door is hot for him. He makes a move on her and gets into a fight with her husband. When the cops arrive, junior shoots one of the officers.
My question is, where in the above does it become sinning against God?
Ben
This is at least the 2nd thread where you've made the leap from a person committing a somewhat minor sin (or at the very least, a non-violent sin) to them winding up shooting cops when they get older.
Maybe you're taking things a bit too far.
-Dan.
_____________________________
"Abstinence has the word 'abs' in it" - The Situation
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/12/2010 8:10:29 AM
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zoebob
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A nine month old may not be able to sit still in church but that doesn't mean they can't be disobedient and sin. I have see my children at about 9 months old start towards something they had been taught not to do, pause look around to see if anyone was watching, and when it appeared that no one was keep going to do what they knew they weren't supposed to.
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L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/12/2010 1:04:54 PM
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benzapped
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
This is at least the 2nd thread where you've made the leap from a person committing a somewhat minor sin (or at the very least, a non-violent sin) to them winding up shooting cops when they get older.
Maybe you're taking things a bit too far.
-Dan.
Dan,
Yes, it is the second illustration of that nature, one of them being an actual event, not my imagination. I am far from a new parent. I have raised a girl and boy, and now have 2 grown grandchildren. So I know from which I speak. I have had many personal acquaintences and friends over the years whose children grew up to be fine, contented adults. And some grew up to be adult monsters, today in prison, and in come cases dead. The later group, without exception, now say, "O if I had just applied more discipline when they were little..."
So I hope those who chalk blatant disobedience off as being a "stage in life" will take notice and consider the future. It is possible to love your children in ways that is detremental to them and the rest of society.
Respectfully,
Ben
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/12/2010 1:37:36 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2254
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benzapped
My understanding of Scripture is that children are commanded by God to obey their parents. So, according to Adrian Rogers’ recent sermon, when children disobey their parents, they are sinning against God. And when parents allow their children to get by with disobeying them, they are allowing their child to sin against God. That’s serious...and I agree with Adrian.
But it seems that many Christian parents today don’t see it that way. I regularly observe small children in our church being disobedient and disrespectful to their parents as well as others. And in some instances, to the point of violence. But the parents sheepishly smile and make excuses for their little ones. The correction, if there is any, is a 2-minute “time out.”
Raising children up in the ways of the Lord is a command to parents. And allowing children to be little barbarians is not in keeping with that command. But few seem to see sin as sin anymore. Most are too busy doing what is right in their own eyes.
That’s my rant,
Ben
Seems to me that you're taking issue with ways of disciplining children... And I'm not sure if viewing a child's disobedience to oneself as a parent as sin against God (which, I agree with you, it is) is necessarily going to change that particular person's parenting methods... although it ought to be rather convicting for parents who are Christians.
Is it the use of timeouts that you disagree with? Or is it that you are tired of ineffective disciplining of some kids on the part of their parents?
(I have observed that sometimes the more unruly, disobedient children are not told "no" by one or both parents. Seems to me that it's not so much the problem that timeouts are used. I don't know that timeouts are being used in families in which children are hardly ever told "no." But I'm also not around the families 24/7, so these are just my impressions.)
Timeout works with some kids. With others it doesn't. Time to get creative! 
Guiding children's behavior is a more complicated business than just saying "no" or putting in timeout or spanking. And I'm sure you're well aware of that, Ben.
_____________________________
"LORD, You light my lamp; my God illuminates my darkness."—Psalm 18:28, HCSB
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/12/2010 2:59:01 PM
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bolt.
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quote:
some grew up to be adult monsters, today in prison, and in come cases dead. The later group, without exception, now say, "O if I had just applied more discipline when they were little..."
Then those parents should repent of their sin against their children, rather than be tacitly excused by pretending that the sin of parental laziness is something a child does.
quote:
So I hope those who chalk blatant disobedience off as being a "stage in life" will take notice and consider the future. It is possible to love your children in ways that is detrimental to them and the rest of society.
It is also possible to deeply wound them by expecting more than they can give, or subjecting them to punishment without teaching and support... both of which would be a direct violation of Scripture.
_____________________________
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/13/2010 4:20:32 PM
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Binyamin
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With all due respect to parents who claim "more discipline" results in better children, that's a ludicrous claim.
Discipline is worthless if you don't know how to relate to and understand your children.
If your relationship with your child is great, he or she will willingly accept that they deserve punishment, even though they may bristle at the punishment itself. When they accept that they have done wrong and deserve to be punished, it demonstrates that your values as a parent have been transmitted successfully to your child.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/13/2010 5:11:27 PM
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bolt.
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quote:
Discipline is worthless if you don't know how to relate to and understand your children.
I go one better than that, Binyamin
Discipline is impossible if you don't know how to relate to and understand your children.
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Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/13/2010 5:16:47 PM
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Binyamin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
quote:
Discipline is worthless if you don't know how to relate to and understand your children.
I go one better than that, Binyamin
Discipline is impossible if you don't know how to relate to and understand your children.
Amen.
People who seek to solve the problem simply by disciplining their children without understanding them will either kill them (their heart, their spirit, their self-esteem, sometimes their bodies), or they will force them to rebel.
The problem of relating to children will only get more difficult as time passes. My father and me have such a tremendous gap in terms of our society, culture, technology, etc. It will be even more challenging between me and my son.
We need to cultivate understanding.
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RE: Disobedient children—sinning against God - 7/13/2010 5:28:33 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 568
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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I think you are misunderstanding the word 'discipline' -- it means 'to disciple'. Nobody has ever been capable of discipling someone without understanding... it would be like talking about swimming without water.
I think you mean to be saying that 'people who seek to solve the problem by punishing their children without understanding will either kill them (their heart, their spirit, their self-esteem, sometimes their bodies), or they will force them to rebel.'
That statement is entirely correct, which is why such a tactic is forbidden in the Bible, and therefore is considered a sin -- a sin against the child being so-treated, and a sin of disobedience against God (who specifically took that tactic off the table).
Understanding is the cornerstone of discipline. How can you influence a person that you have no grasp of how their mind works and no relationship with? And that responsibility, to find a way to understand and relate, falls entirely to the parent, who has been given the duty by God towards their children.*
(* By 'children' I mean infancy through physical maturity... young adults bear their own portion of responsibility during that phase of the relationship, even though our culture keeps them 'under our roof'.)
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